2002 Super 8 series ???

[DrewC]

He he he don't mind that idea Game on but i reckon we'd be better off just taking their money then disqualifying the lefties after qualifying or give em a negative handicap...(the buggers would still be good enough to win though!)

Seriously though..as a fringe player I personally don't think much of the 6 games in the morning. It's helped me and cost me this year but generally all i think it does is bring in a large group of bowlers who don't really need to be there. Maybe a top 20 cut 19 games then its all over? I personally would prefer to know one way or the other whether you'd made the real cut or not on saturday night.
2 suggestions for oil patterns.
1.The AMF centres which have the super six should all have the summit machines by now..if someone can come up with a standard condition then it can be programmed into the machines at each host centre..it's still going to vary slightly but not alot.
2.Come up with minimum requirements as to lengths/thicknesses etc and let each centre run their own pattern which would see a few varied conditions and keep us all guessing. (Problem with this i realise is that it's hard to police and there's no guarantees that the oil will be put out there on the day)

Right i've passed out now from not taking a breath...

See you all later!

 

[Jez]

Hedley
You are right the step-ladder can be un fair for the person running 1st but the ladder is there purely for the crowd to make it more exciting and i think this is good for the game it is the only way it will get on tele.

But when u have 2 in the ladder as i said u can only drop a place this mau cost you a fair bit of money just for one place. When there is 3 or 4 in the ladder u can drop 2 or 3 places which can cost u BIG MONEY in just one game and i just dont think that is fair. Especially when u are playing for big biscuits.

 

[Graham]

isnt there a rule in those stepladders that says the highest ranked bowler can only drop 1 place ??

 

[Hedley]

Graham,

You may well be right but I must admit that I don't recall hearing about such a rule previously.

The situation arose at this year's Australian Open (AO) at Sunshine. The first Step Ladder game was between the three (3) bowlers finishing 3rd (Rod Stewart - 7,511), 4th (Mick Little - 7,437) and 5th (Brenton Davy - 7,405) after Matchplay. In a very close game, Brenton (190), just beat Mick (188), with Rod Stewart a further 19 pins back on 169. My recollection is that as a result, Rod Stewart dropped from 3rd to 5th and Mick remained in 4th place. Mick, if you read this, can you advise whether you finished 4th or 5th?

Certainly the rule you mention did not apply in the Masters held on January 7 as part of this year's Australian International Youth Championships (AIYC). As Jarrod mentioned above, he was 3rd after Matchplay but dropped to 5th after shooting a neat 200 in a 3-way Step Ladder with Adam Goldberg (231) and Jason Walsh (203). Jarrod was 205 pins ahead of Adam and 207 pins clear of Jason after Matchplay.

Jez,

The money you lose if you drop one place, from 1st to 2nd, in a Step Ladder is very much BIGGER than the money you lose if you drop two places, from 3rd to 5th, in a Step Ladder. Dropping two places, from 3rd to 5th as a result of the AIYC Step Ladder, cost you $115 (prize money of $385 for 5th versus $500 for 3rd). First prize at AIYC was $2,000 and 2nd prize was $1,000. So, IF Brando had dropped just one place, from 1st after Matchplay to 2nd after the Step Ladder, it would have cost him $1,000, or more than eight (8) times as much as the two places cost you!! Which would you sooner have lost, two places and $115 or one place and $1,000?

Similarly with the AO Step Ladder. If Rod Stewart did drop from 3rd to 5th it cost him $500 in prize money ($1,300 vs $1,800) plus a trophy. IF Cara Honeychurch had dropped from 1st after Matchplay (she was 277 pins clear) to 2nd after the Step Ladder, it would have cost her $1,500 ($2,500 vs $4,000).

 

[Game_On]

i know this is probly a dumb suggestion but i'm gonna throw it in any way but for wualifying could it be organised that the lefties bowl on the same lanes???

 

[Hedley]

BFCC,

Thanks for your confirmation that you are, indeed, advocating that there should be up to 16 games of Qualifying bowled in a single continuous sequence on the one day, with no break between games and no re-oiling of the lanes part way through the 16 games.

Assuming that there are 16 games of Qualifying, can you clarify a couple of points for me:

1. Do you envisage having four (4) bowlers per pair lanes , which will require eight (8) hours per Squad, or two (2) bowlers per pair, which will require five (5) hours per Squad.

2. If there are four (4) bowlers per pair of lanes, do you consider that you could fit two (2) Qualifying Squads into a single, 17 hour, day? (This would involve starting at, say, 7.00 am and finishing at midnight, or later if there are any major equipment foul-ups.)

In your previous post you stated that ".........they are bowling 12 games qualifying now so lets keep it at 12 not reduce it to 8". This statement could be misleading, because it implies that all Tournaments have 12 games of Qualifying bowled in a continuous sequence on the one Day. This, of course, is not correct. Of the 12 Events on the 2001 National Open Tournament Circuit, less than half involve 12 games of Qualifying bowled in the one appearance.

 

[bfcc]

hedley i was talking about the super 6 series having 12 games of qualifing i think they have all been the same. as for your times on how long it takes to bowl at hervey bay on the weekend b squad started at 2:30pm bowled 12 games with most pairs having 4 bowlers and the last bowler was off at 6:30 pm ,so i was told so your times seem a little out.

 

[Hedley]

BFCC,

Unfortunately, you are wrong on both counts.

Only half (i.e. three) of the 2001 Super 6 Tournaments involve 12 games of Qualifying in a single continuous appearance. These are Koolfoam (plus 6 more games of Qualifying on Day 2 for the Top 45 Bowlers), Canberra Open (plus 6 more games of Qualifying on Day 2 for the Top 48 Bowlers) and New South Wales Open (plus 6 more games of Qualifying on Day 2 for the Top 39 Bowlers). The other half (i.e. South Australian Cup, Australian Open and South Pacific Classic), involve a maximum of only 8 games of Qualifying in a single continuous sequence before the lanes are washed and oiled.

I note your observation that the amount of time I have nominated as necessary to run a National Circuit Tournament, 16-game, Squad, with 4 bowlers per pair ".... seems a little out" However, I can assure that the figure of 8 hours is accurate, subject to a small rounding factor. Using Squad B (Check-in time 8.00 am) at the 2001 New South Wales Open as an example, following are the start times of each of the six (two game) Blocks:

Block 1 (Games 1 and 2) ----- 8.34 am
Block 2 (Games 3 and 4) ----- 9.33 am
Block 3 (Games 5 and 6) ---- 10.31 am
Block 4 4Games 7 and 8) ---- 11.33 am
Block 5 (Games 9 and 10) --- 12.30 am
Block 6 (Games 11 and 12) -- 1.27 pm

The last of the Squad B bowlers did not complete their 12th game until 2.27 pm. This is a total of 5 hours and 53 minutes for 12 games, or an average of 59 minutes per (2 game) Block. BFCC, this information is first-hand, I was there noting the time each game started and recording the scores of one of the 48 bowlers. I suspect the 52-strong Squad C took a little longer than Squad B, but I don't have precise figures because I was not present. Like you, I would be relying on second-hand information.

Now, assuming there is no added time for the combination of the "fatigue-factor" and the "more second balls" factor (i.e. fewer strikes) as the conditions become increasingly difficult, a further two Blocks (4 games) would have taken almost two hours, bringing the total 16-game Squad time to about 7 hours 50 minutes.

Having finished Day 1 (Squad A - 19 Bowlers) at well after 11.00 pm, then begun Day 2 with Squad B (48 Bowlers) Check-in at 8.00 am and, finally, finished Squad C after 9.00 pm, I'm sure the Tournament Officials and the guys like Graham Williams bringing us the scores over the internet, would really favour having their 13-plus hour day extended by another 4 hours!!!!

Incidently, I'm suprised (to say the least) that a Bowler with your unquestioned level of knowledge and experience would fall for the trap of trying to draw an analogy between a Regional Tournament held in a 12-lane "Country" Centre (largest Squad size being about 21 bowlers) and a National Circuit Tournament in a 26-lane "City" Centre (largest Squad size 52 bowlers).

As you would well know, Squad times are governed by the slowest pair, because no-one can move lanes until everyone can move. In Squad B at Hervey Bay there were six pairs of lanes in use, of which three had 4 bowlers per pair and three had 3 bowlers per pair. Obviously, the governing factor was the speed of the pairs of lanes that had 4 bowlers. At Hervey there were only three (3) such pairs. In Squad B at Bankstown, there were 12 pairs of lanes being used and all 12 pairs had 4 bowlers. Thus the potential for "irritatating" delays on a single pair of lanes (which delays the entire Squad) was increased four-fold.

BFCC, given that my Squad times are correct, I would still appreciate hearing your thoughts on the two unanswered requests for clarification in my 12th of August post.

 

[bfcc]

hedley i must be wrong ,what was i thinking with today's elite bowler wanting them to bowl soo many games, i think your right lets have nice little 8 games blocks then wash and oil we dont want anyone hurting themselves having to pick up another ball or even have to change lines.the bowler of today is such a finally tuned athelte they should only been used in small amounts.

as for the bowlers taking 1 hour to bowl 2 games maybe the tournament director needs to step in and say something that is a joke!!!!!!

 

[craig]

in regards to speeds, i have to agree that the elite are getting way to slow.

example, this years junior state championships, every squad had a 15 - 20 minute break in between squads.

with the adults after 6 squads, we were running over an hour late, and they threw higher scores???

 

[Hippy??]

Well Hedley , you seem to have all the facts and figures all worked out but there is one thing that still don't add up , and that is where have all the tournament bowlers gone. From my observations of your posts you are not a tournament bowler. Nor ,in my opion is anyone who wants to have less games not more. Where is the challenge in bowling 8 games. Some of us would only be starting to warm up and then you would have us stop. Don't take the challenge of reading lanes as they break down away from the game. If you do then you will end up with a whole lot of bowlers complaining if they have to move more than 1 board , just wanting to stand left and hit it hard and throw it right , having the condition find the pocket for them , shooting ridiculosly high scores , and having tournament numbers declining at a rapid rate. OOPS hang on , isnt that what we have now. What a great future our game has......

As for comparing Hervey Bay to a national tournament , I'm sure that all those bowled at Hervey Bay would have realized that it didn't matter that they were only bowling in a regional little not important tournament so they had to bowl faster. Or is your point that in national tournaments you don't bowl 10 frames a game. You will have to explain why it takes longer to do the same thing because I'm a little confused on that point. Perhaps I have lost the plot too.

 

[Magoo]

To hedley
Now I could be wrong,but the last time i bowled in the Koolfoam at canon hill (no i can't remember which squad)there was 20 lanes in use with a mixture of 4/pair and 3/pair of lanes and I WASN'T on the lanes for more than 5-6 hours.This also includes slow lanes and lane breakdowns,But i do have to say i was in the centre for more than 8 hours,playing video games!!!

As i said i could be wrong though!!!
Till next time
Tryhard

 

[Hedley]

Gerald,

I'm afraid one or other of us is missing the point AGAIN!! I think we can both agree that the Koolfoam Stage 1 Qualifying Squads are comprised of 12 games. In your post concerning Koolfoam, you comment "...... and I WASN'T on the lanes for more than 5-6 hours". Gerald, what is the relevance of this comment? Did you think I was suggesting that you (or anyone else, for that matter) were on the lanes for MORE than 6 hours to bowl 12 games? The bowlers in Squad B of the New South Wales Open were not on the lanes for MORE than 6 hours, either!!

For the record, the 59 bowlers in this year's Koolfoam Squad B at Mt Gravatt (30 lanes) were on the lanes for 5 hours and 17 minutes (2.47 pm to 8.04 pm), excluding practice. According to the Entry Form, the Squad was scheduled to start bowling at 2.30 pm ("Or earlier") and to finish at 7.00 pm!!

Gerald, all my comments about "8-hour Squads" have stemmed from BFCC's proposal (apparently serious), that Stage 1 Qualifying Squads be INCREASED to 16 games in a single appearance. Despite being asked two very simple questions on no less than three occasions, BFCC has assiduously avoided addressing the issue of how the (approximately) two hours extra time required per Qualifying Squad (4 bowlers per pair of lanes) would be fitted into the schedule.

Instead, like Dave Hardy, he has resorted to sarcasm and they have both, perhaps unwittingly, misrepresented my position. For example, in his most recent post, BFCC commented: "hedley ......., I think your (sic) right lets have nice little 8 game blocks then wash and oil ......". Where, in this Topic, have I advocated such a proposition? NO WHERE!! My principle concern has been that if someone suggests a radical change, such as increasing the number of Super 6 Stage 1 Qualifying games to 16 (present maximum, 12) in a single appearance, they should at least have given some thought to the organisational issues involved.

Having read the posts on this Forum detailing the views of the bowlers who are actually out there bowling on the National Tournament Circuit, I suspect that if any Tournament Director is "courageous" enough to take-up BFCC's proposal to introduce 16 games of Qualifying in a single appearance, he will "enjoy" a heavily-depleted field.

 

[dwambo]

O.K.!!!!!
I think that I have come to a definate conclusion..
BFCC & HASBEEN are not well liked by HEDLEY!!
And the two of U should be ashamed!!!!!!!!He is not very impressed by your comments boys..
BUT....................................................

THIS IS JUST MY OPINION!!!

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

 

[AdrianS]

Before we all forget, oil protects the suface of the lane too. The more oil they get the better, especially with particle equipment chewing away at the heads.

 

[bfcc]

dwambo i don't really care if hedley likes me or not , i dont even now him but sure we will meet sooner or later at a tournament .the point i was trying to make was to keep the number of qualifing to 12-16 so that the condition has time to change and the bowlers have to know how to read the lanes and adjust to them.a skill i think will be lost if we go to 8 games.as for how many people to have on a pair i think 3 per pair is the way to go and if this means we start the first squad at 730am and the last squad doesn't finish untill late so be it.the problem we have in australia is we don't have the luxury of bowling a tournament over a week ,we have to do it over a weekend or a long weekend so that means we have to bowl more games in a day than they do overseas, this is a fact we have to live with.

 

[petebowl]

HERE IS A TOURNAMENT FORMAT TO INCREASE BOWLER NUMBERS.
WHAT DO YOU THINK ?

Bowlers pay an entry fee to compete in stage one. ( say $140 ).
Saturday squads consisting of 12 games.
cut to top 30 for Sunday.
top 14 PAY EXTRA $100 TO BOWL 13 HEAD TO HEAD MATCHES.
Bowlers 15 to 30 PAY EXTRA $20 TO BOWL AN 8 GAME "B" FINAL.

If 100 bowlers enter the payout would be as follows, (allowing for $4 per game lineage)
1st.....$1500
2nd 900
3rd 800
4th 700
5th 600
6th 500
7th 450
8th 400
9th 350
10th 300
11th 290
12th 280
13th 270
14th 260
15th to 24th $170 ea
25th to 30th $150 ea

This format means bowlers are outlaying a considerably lower amount to enter but still have a chance to win substantial prizemoney if they perform well on that particular weekend.

 

[craig]

no offense pete, but way too top heavy, and to cut matchplay is $240 making no profit after i drive down from the coast and staying in a motel for the night, even if i did it with 4 guys, i still run at a loss if i run last in the cut.

the pay as you go theory is a great one, just needs its ratio's fixed up a little, keep working at it and something great will come of it.

and unlike the last attempt, keep it as simple as possible and when its a success, don't change it one bit.

 

[Magoo]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Tahoma, Arial, Helvetica, ">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by bfcc:
and people wonder why bowling isn't consider a sport !! just look at the replys coming in guys don't want to bowl more then 8 games because it is to hard the lanes change or they might hurt themself, lets start the days later we need to be able to socialize and see the city.

if you guys want bowling to be consider a pro sport then it is about time you all started to think like pro's , if you go to a tournament to bowl then thats what you are there to do if it means having an early night so you can get to the bowl on time so be it, do u think the guys on the pga tour like tiger woods enjoy teeing off at 6 am and remember they would be there at least an hour earlier to warm up!!

as for not bowling as many games i think all qualifing should be 12-16 games and let the condition change lets bring some skill and talent,fitness back into the game and lets see who knows how to handle the lanes when they break down.6 -8 game qualifing blocks are great for the new equipment and the condition doesnt have time to change so you get lined up and we end up with a carry contest !!
tournaments need to be a test of skill and the best bowler should win not just a carry contest !!

well that should be enough to get me into trouble just remember if you want to be treated like pro's start acting like pro's !!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

To Hedley please read Bfcc's origional post for reference.
As far as I can see nothing about bowling for 8 hours here.
Tryhard

 

[Magoo]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Tahoma, Arial, Helvetica, ">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Hedley:
BFCC,

Can you confirm/clarify a couple of points for me:

1. When you advocate bowling up to 16 games of Qualifying, it is my understanding that you are talking about doing this in a single continuous sequence on the one day, with no break between games and no re-oiling of the lanes part way through the 16 games. Is my understanding correct?

2. If my understanding is correct, do you envisage having four bowlers per pair of lanes (8 hours per Squad), or two bowlers per pair (5 hours per Squad)?

3. If there are four bowlers per pair of lanes, do you consider that you could fit two Qualifying Squads into a single, 17-hour, day? (This would involve starting at, say, 7.00am and finishing at midnight, provided there are no major equipment foul-ups.)

4. Let's assume the ratio of right-handed to left-handed bowlers in a Qualifying Squad is 9-to-1, then, in your opinion, do the left-handed bowlers have an advantage in that the condition on the left side does not break down as fast as on the right and the lefties do not have to do as much adapting and make as many changes to speed, release, roll, etc?

5. If the answer to point 4 is Yes, then, in your opinion, does the advantage enjoyed by the lefties increase in other than a linear manner if 16 games are bowled without a break and without re-oiling, compared to having a 1-hour re-oiling and meal break after 8 games?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hedley this is the first mention of bowling for 8 hours in regards to bowling the qualifying games in one session.