Should we allow the changes to DeVeer?

[weggy]

1) The tournament should have been a Youth Scratch Event
2) I objected to 120 average bowlers making themselves out as "State Team" bowlers and the prestige of Rachuig would be diminished.

Was I right to object to the the DeVeer concept? Lets look at the facts as they are now.
1) It was later recognised that there was no pathway from juniors to adults and a Youth Challenge was instituted several years later.
2) I have seen and heard of many cases where DeVeer bowlers have reporesented themselves as "State Team" bowlers to outsiders who have only learned at a later time they they are not elite level players and have found this of concern.

I am aware that several DeVeer players have used this as a stepping stone to Rachuig and these players I applaud heartily as they have used the event as it was intended. Those who have intentionally "Managed" their averages to ensure they remain eligible for the event, then I am sorry, but the loss of this event is on your heads.

Thanks for giving an honest reply.

I agree with what you are saying, especially about '120 avg bowlers'. But my question is, wouldn't it be easier to just change the format to a scratch event with a cut-off limit, rather than what has happened now?

 

[Brenton_Davy]

Even in a scratch format, you are still rewarding mediocrity by presenting a state shirt to players who are below the highest level. Call me elitist, but is that not what state representation is SUPPOSED to be about. Posters previously have asked, well what about players who start their bowling careers late and have no junior or youth pathway. My answer is this, do what I did, I started late and had no other pathway to the Rachuig level other than working my backside off, training hard with a good coach.

Elite level state representation is about MAKING SACRIFICES!!!!!. There should be no easy way to reach the elite level, it should consist of hard work, practice, study and a first class work ethic. That is the pathway to the elite level, no shortcuts, no handouts, no acceptance of 2nd best. Then there is the period of paying dues in roll-offs and tournaments where you learn the game and serve your "apprenticeship" for want of a better word. Too many players want the easy option.

If you look at the top players today, they have all put in the work, paid their dues and are now reaping the rewards. There is no one in the top ten nationally who has not put in the hard yards, thousands of practice games and made the sacrifices, both personal and financial.

If you want to make a state team then you have to put in the hard yards, the practice and be prepared to forego a lot of your personal time and luxuries that many take for granted, in order to gain the personal satisfaction (and just maybe a little financial reward!).

Is DeVeer the stepping stone to Rachuig? In general, no! Some have successfuly used this as part of the pathway, but it is not THE pathway.

I guess, in answer to Weggy's question, that all means that, no, I don't think DeVeer in a restricted, scratch format is the way to go.

 

[dunryc]

Even in a scratch format, you are still rewarding mediocrity by presenting a state shirt to players who are below the highest level. Call me elitist, but is that not what state representation is SUPPOSED to be about. Posters previously have asked, well what about players who start their bowling careers late and have no junior or youth pathway. My answer is this, do what I did, I started late and had no other pathway to the Rachuig level other than working my backside off, training hard with a good coach.
Elite level state representation is about MAKING SACRIFICES!!!!!. There should be no easy way to reach the elite level, it should consist of hard work, practice, study and a first class work ethic. That is the pathway to the elite level, no shortcuts, no handouts, no acceptance of 2nd best. Then there is the period of paying dues in roll-offs and tournaments where you learn the game and serve your "apprenticeship" for want of a better word. Too many players want the easy option.
If you look at the top players today, they have all put in the work, paid their dues and are now reaping the rewards. There is no one in the top ten nationally who has not put in the hard yards, thousands of practice games and made the sacrifices, both personal and financial.
If you want to make a state team then you have to put in the hard yards, the practice and be prepared to forego a lot of your personal time and luxuries that many take for granted, in order to gain the personal satisfaction (and just maybe a little financial reward!).
Is DeVeer the stepping stone to Rachuig? In general, no! Some have successfuly used this as part of the pathway, but it is not THE pathway.
I guess, in answer to Weggy's question, that all means that, no, I don't think DeVeer in a restricted, scratch format is the way to go.

Hallelujah Brother! Another confirmed Member of the ESC!



Jan

 

[zoedog]

Here is more info on the web site I posted earlier:

The Amateur Bowlers Tour (ABT) was founded in September 1977. It has grown to be the largest and best organized tournament club in the United States. The Amateur Bowlers Tour (ABT) is the only tournament club that guarantee’s a minimum first place prize in the Classic Division and a minimum guaranteed prize fund in each and every Classic tournament. This will vary in different branches based on its size and the number of bowlers and bowling centers in their area.
Amateur Bowlers Tour (ABT) started opening additional units in January 1978 when they opened a office in San Jose, California and began conducting tournaments. Since we have not been active in soliciting new Franchisee’s, the majority of our Franchisee’s are developed from our membership in our Branch offices.

Originally the Amateur Bowlers Tour (ABT) was designed for bowlers with a maximum 189 average or less. Bowlers are handicapped at 70% of the difference between their assigned tournament average and 195 with a maximum beginning handicap of 31 pins. There is also a built in floating handicap system with up to 100% handicap after a bowler has established a tournament average (21 games or more) and they have failed to cash in three or more tournaments thereafter.

In March 1995 Amateur Bowlers Tour (ABT) opened it doors to the higher average bowlers, 190-220 by creating a new Division to known as the Masters Division. The 189 and under Division was renamed the Classic Division. The new Masters Division is handicapped at 70% of the difference between a bowlers assigned tournament average and 220. The maximum beginning handicap is 21 pins. Both Divisions feature a floating handicap system with up to 100% handicap difference between their current tournament average and the maximum average for that Division.

In July 1998 due to higher scoring conditions due to lane conditions and new higher scoring bowling balls the Amateur Bowlers Tour (ABT) made some additional adjustment in the basic format. The Masters Division was raised from 190-220 to 200 to 225 with the handicap percentage being changed to 80% of the difference between the bowler’s tournament average/entering average and 225. With a maximum beginning handicap of twenty (20) pins. The Classic Division was changed from 189 and under to 199 and under. The handicap percentage was changed from 70% of 195 to 80% of 200 with a maximum beginning handicap of forty-eight (48) pins.

In just over twenty-three (23) years the Amateur Bowlers Tour (ABT) has paid out in excess of One hundred thirty four million dollars ($134,000,000.00). More than any other club in the history of bowling. Even more than the Professional Bowlers Assn. (PBA) which has been in business for over fifty (50) years.

Very interesting! Originally open to handicapped bowlers with averages under 189 then opened its doors to the higher average bowlers. They seem to be able to manage tournament averages & entry handicaps! FOOD FOR THOUGHT hmmmmmm

Angy (not Andrew) Campbell

 

[dunryc]

Here is more info on the web site I posted earlier:
The Amateur Bowlers Tour (ABT) was founded in September 1977. It has grown to be the largest and best organized tournament club in the United States. The Amateur Bowlers Tour (ABT) is the only tournament club that guarantee’s a minimum first place prize in the Classic Division and a minimum guaranteed prize fund in each and every Classic tournament. This will vary in different branches based on its size and the number of bowlers and bowling centers in their area.
Amateur Bowlers Tour (ABT) started opening additional units in January 1978 when they opened a office in San Jose, California and began conducting tournaments. Since we have not been active in soliciting new Franchisee’s, the majority of our Franchisee’s are developed from our membership in our Branch offices.
Originally the Amateur Bowlers Tour (ABT) was designed for bowlers with a maximum 189 average or less. Bowlers are handicapped at 70% of the difference between their assigned tournament average and 195 with a maximum beginning handicap of 31 pins. There is also a built in floating handicap system with up to 100% handicap after a bowler has established a tournament average (21 games or more) and they have failed to cash in three or more tournaments thereafter.
In March 1995 Amateur Bowlers Tour (ABT) opened it doors to the higher average bowlers, 190-220 by creating a new Division to known as the Masters Division. The 189 and under Division was renamed the Classic Division. The new Masters Division is handicapped at 70% of the difference between a bowlers assigned tournament average and 220. The maximum beginning handicap is 21 pins. Both Divisions feature a floating handicap system with up to 100% handicap difference between their current tournament average and the maximum average for that Division.
In July 1998 due to higher scoring conditions due to lane conditions and new higher scoring bowling balls the Amateur Bowlers Tour (ABT) made some additional adjustment in the basic format. The Masters Division was raised from 190-220 to 200 to 225 with the handicap percentage being changed to 80% of the difference between the bowler’s tournament average/entering average and 225. With a maximum beginning handicap of twenty (20) pins. The Classic Division was changed from 189 and under to 199 and under. The handicap percentage was changed from 70% of 195 to 80% of 200 with a maximum beginning handicap of forty-eight (48) pins.
In just over twenty-three (23) years the Amateur Bowlers Tour (ABT) has paid out in excess of One hundred thirty four million dollars ($134,000,000.00). More than any other club in the history of bowling. Even more than the Professional Bowlers Assn. (PBA) which has been in business for over fifty (50) years.
Very interesting! Originally open to handicapped bowlers with averages under 189 then opened its doors to the higher average bowlers. They seem to be able to manage tournament averages & entry handicaps! FOOD FOR THOUGHT hmmmmmm
Angy (not Andrew) Campbell

Hi Angy,

I actually bowled a few ABT events when I first moved over to the US is 1991, before my average got too high. They had some interesting rules and methods to try to cope with sandbagging but in the end, accusations of sandbagging, cheating and abuse took it's toll and the popularity waned to the point where the 3 local ABT Associations in my area were all disbanded. I would say that the expansion to include higher average bowlers was a necessary move on their part to survive. Obviously they have grown again, but I'm sure they are still having problems with average Managers. I'm actually surprised the higher average bowlers even bowl. There are/were plenty of local scratch tournament Clubs around the country for them to bowl in, and then Regional and National PBA events, or tournaments like the High Roller and Eliminator in Vegas. ABT wasn't a bad concept but had the same old problems. It gets pretty old giving away 20 pins handicap to people who you know or at least suspect are sandbagging.
As I've said before, I've yet to see a system that can effectively eliminate sandbagging. Good Luck!

Jan

 

[Brenton_Davy]

Average or handicap "management" is not a new concept, in bowling or other handicapped sports, like golf. I was a junior pennant golfer in the mid to late 70's and I saw many examples of what we called in those days "burglars" who always managed their handicaps in order to stay in a lower grade in order to help them win more comps and stay in easier grades come Club Championship time. The difference with them was (and still is) they could not be rewarded with any type of representative shirt, either club or state.

It was also easy for the club handicapper to re rate a player because it was easy to watch him/her play regularly. For something like a national tournament it is much harder to re rate a player as the tournament officials don't get to see them play regularly.

I have seen some people in this and other threads bemoan the fact that most players aren't good enough to make a Rachuig team and need something to fulfil their competitive ambitions. The reality is that there are very few people in ANY sport that have the ability/dedication/talent to make a state team. That is why state team places are so coveted, because they are so very difficult to attain and NOT EVERYONE IS GOOD ENOUGH TO MAKE ONE. That is the unfortunate reality of life and sport.

 

[Black Duck]

Brenton is right in every aspect, but let's be realistic who knows outside of theTen Pin Bowling fraternity who are the top State and Australian ten pin bowlers ?

Ask average Joe in the street who the players are in their State Rachuig team and I think we all know what the answer will be, I have said so many times over the years the sport of Ten Pin Bowling requires some real good marketing ! We have the bowlers but no recognition outside of a bowling alley

Bring back the televised competitions and let the people in ten pin bowling want to reach the top so they can recognised by the Australian public.

Each State Team could have an owner and the players could be paid as professionals and the competition would attract sponsors and thousands of dollars

Maybe an NTBL with televised state v state matches, pity Kerry Packer is gone, he might have been able to revive this once popular sport out of the doldrums, he did it with cricket, now packed houses and the traditionalists said it would never work!!

I am off to talk with Foxtel - Any interested investors??

 

[CHIN]

Even in a scratch format, you are still rewarding mediocrity by presenting a state shirt to players who are below the highest level. Call me elitist, but is that not what state representation is SUPPOSED to be about. Posters previously have asked, well what about players who start their bowling careers late and have no junior or youth pathway. My answer is this, do what I did, I started late and had no other pathway to the Rachuig level other than working my backside off, training hard with a good coach.
Elite level state representation is about MAKING SACRIFICES!!!!!. There should be no easy way to reach the elite level, it should consist of hard work, practice, study and a first class work ethic. That is the pathway to the elite level, no shortcuts, no handouts, no acceptance of 2nd best. Then there is the period of paying dues in roll-offs and tournaments where you learn the game and serve your "apprenticeship" for want of a better word. Too many players want the easy option.
If you look at the top players today, they have all put in the work, paid their dues and are now reaping the rewards. There is no one in the top ten nationally who has not put in the hard yards, thousands of practice games and made the sacrifices, both personal and financial.
If you want to make a state team then you have to put in the hard yards, the practice and be prepared to forego a lot of your personal time and luxuries that many take for granted, in order to gain the personal satisfaction (and just maybe a little financial reward!).
Is DeVeer the stepping stone to Rachuig? In general, no! Some have successfuly used this as part of the pathway, but it is not THE pathway.
I guess, in answer to Weggy's question, that all means that, no, I don't think DeVeer in a restricted, scratch format is the way to go.

Like Jan said Brenton, Hallelujah.

Exactly what we have been trying to say in not so many words. Always reads more polite when you write it.

P.S. sorry angy, had Andrew Campbell on the public profile for (Zoedog).


QUOTED BY BLACK DUCK.

Brenton is right in every aspect, but let's be realistic who knows outside of theTen Pin Bowling fraternity who are the top State and Australian ten pin bowlers ?
Ask average Joe in the street who the players are in their State Rachuig team and I think we all know what the answer will be, I have said so many times over the years the sport of Ten Pin Bowling requires some real good marketing !


How many sports do you know where you would recognize there State or National Representatives if you saw them on the street. Not many. Maybe Cricket, Football & Soccer and only the high profile players. Only because you see the competition on TV.
How many of the State Darts, Lawn Bowls or Eight Ball teams would you recognize if you saw them on the street unless you are heavily follow those individual sports. Probably zero.
Tenpin Bowling is like 95% of sports. Little recognition unless you get major TV coverage. You cant have all of them covered by TV.
Like so many sports in Australia some of our top sportsman are better known in Europe & elsewhere overseas.

 

[gjelectrics1]

This next post is probably going to piss a lot of people off, but who cares. There seems to be a lot of animosity ( for want of a better word ) between the so called ELITE bowlers and the average bowlers. If everyone that is posting on this thread put the same amount of effort into their bowling rather than whinging and Bitchin' about things, they will become better bowlers, and in becoming better bowlers they could join the Elitist Snob Club and show that not all bowlers that have bowled De Veer are unsportsmanlike. The same sort of principal goes for the elite Rachuig bowlers, they could go on and represent their country. The main thing that concerns me is that all this whinging is doing nothing to further our sport. We are all bowlers, lets start acting like bowlers and not kindergarten kids saying mine is better or bigger than yours

 

[CHIN]

This next post is probably going to piss a lot of people off, but who cares. There seems to be a lot of animosity ( for want of a better word ) between the so called ELITE bowlers and the average bowlers. If everyone that is posting on this thread put the same amount of effort into their bowling rather than whinging and Bitchin' about things, they will become better bowlers, and in becoming better bowlers they could join the Elitist Snob Club and show that not all bowlers that have bowled De Veer are unsportsmanlike. The same sort of principal goes for the elite Rachuig bowlers, they could go on and represent their country. The main thing that concerns me is that all this whinging is doing nothing to further our sport. We are all bowlers, lets start acting like bowlers and not kindergarten kids saying mine is better or bigger than yours

I'm gonna do a little pissing of myself.

Obviously the people that started these 4 or 5 De Veer threads werent to concerned then about furthering the sport with all there talk about break aways, mutiny meetings in Melbourne & childish polls about "Do we accept the changes to De Veer or do we boycott the new system".
I dont think TBA will really care if the current De Veer bowlers boycott the new system as it would get a lot of others bowlers involved in the new system that wouldnt get a chance if you guys do bowl.

How do expect people to take De Veer bowlers seriously when you get on here & whinge like babys constantly. Stop acting like bloody children that have had there lollie pop taken away at child care, accept the umpires decision and get on with your bloody lives. A lot wouldnt be eligible to bowl 2007 Adult Nationals anyway.

If you want to stay at De Veer level the rest of your life and continue being an under acheiving wannabe when you have the ability to improve with a bit of hard work, thats your choice, but it just proves who the "kindergarten kids" are when you start attacking the people that have put in the hard work over the years to improve there game. The continual reference to the "Elitist Snob Club" by the wannabe's. What can I say. Pathetic.

Hopefully if the administrators of this site have any sense they will close all the De Veer threads as soon as possible.

 

[gjelectrics1]

Chin,
no offense was intended or inferred by the referenece to "The Elistist Snob Club". It was just a way of distinguishing for the masses of who I was talking about.
And it is not only Deveer bowlers that have been having a bit to say (Whinge) on this forum

 

[CHIN]

Chin,
no offense was intended or inferred by the referenece to "The Elistist Snob Club". It was just a way of distinguishing for the masses of who I was talking about.
And it is not only Deveer bowlers that have been having a bit to say (Whinge) on this forum

While I have been lucky enough to have bowled 16 Rachuigs since 1986. (hopefully 1 or 2 more left in me), Back in those days there was no stepping stone to representing your State. It was hard work like Brenton said, practice, practice & more practice, travel to tournaments & get your arsed kicked until you were good enough to make it. I certainly dont class myself in the elite category.

I know a few De Veer bowlers here in Adelaide & get on quite well with them. And they are quite passionate & proud of making De Veer & there acheivments. I have nothing against that. I think I have covered in past posts what I find a problem & im not going into it again.

I was the reading these threads with interest with no intention of getting involved in a slinging match. Only when the references started being aimed at the Rachuig bowlers & the Eliteist Snobs comments by the likes of "taps" & her followers in post #1 in the De Veer vs Rachuig thread did I get pissed off & the gloves came off.

"Taps", an appropriate name really after reading that post. When you dont turn them off properly they continue to dribble.

 

[dunryc]

"Taps", an appropriate name really after reading that post. When you dont turn them off properly they continue to dribble.

Rob,

That was brilliant. While I have been trying to avoid going into personal attacks on anyone, I have to say, that is one of the best lines I have heard in years! Well done!

What else can we come up with?

"Stormy"- Lot of noise, flashing lights and hot air, with no real substance, but if you ignore it for a while it blows over?

"Tidal Wave" - Puffed up abberation that will eventually end up dispersed and washed up leaving a trail of debris behind it?

Hey, this is fun!

Oh, that has put me in a good mood!
Cheers
Jan

 

[Cam S]

Rob,
That was brilliant. While I have been trying to avoid going into personal attacks on anyone, I have to say, that is one of the best lines I have heard in years! Well done!
What else can we come up with?
"Stormy"- Lot of noise, flashing lights and hot air, with no real substance, but if you ignore it for a while it blows over?
"Tidal Wave" - Puffed up abberation that will eventually end up dispersed and washed up leaving a trail of debris behind it?
Hey, this is fun!
Oh, that has put me in a good mood!
Cheers
Jan

Ive gotta be honest ive read alot of stuff in this thread and there has been some really solid points made on both sides.

I think alot of brentons comments have made sense and ive have responded to them as such offering some suggestions of my own, isnt that a great thing about this site that a regular bowler like me who has a passion for this sport and has worked their arse of in 18 months to improve their game can interact with some of the legends of australian bowling like Brenton Davy.

The other thing that has stood out like sore thumb, is the arrogance, rudeness and total contempt of other bowlers by this so called rachuig legend Jan Nordin.

The attitude you have displayed throughout this thread is reason so many middle of the road bowlers choose not to bowl in tournaments.

Your attitude displayed in this thread has been ****ing appauling, im not one to take personal shots at people on here but considering you felt the need to take one at me i wont be holding back.

You talk about how WDV bowlers who wear their shirts to resturants, malls and movies what planet are you on, i dont know if you have looked but bowling shirts arent exactley fashionable, i cant say myself or other people i know who bowl at my centre where bowling shirts anywhere else but bowling, lets be honest it has ure name on do u really want every tosser (like yourself jan) knowing our name.

You make it sound like you are a 100 game veteran of rachiug and talk about state shirts are earnt, just one thing Jan the only state shirt you own is one you would have swapped because you dont even represent a state mate, you represent a terriorty but thats besides the point.

I did some research about this rachuig legend who has been running his mouth off here,
2 Apperances in Rachuig 1988 and 2006, 23 games for an average of 187 and 13 Wins 1 draw and 15 loses well your name will surely be remembered in same breath as Kury, allsop and bradford.

Well done mate you made rachuig not once but twice an achievement that many of us dream about and aspire to but it doesnt a license to be a total F-wit and belittle other bowlers and take pot shots at people who are trying to make suggestions on how to improve our sport.

Jan I wouldnt know you if i fell over you but i would love to meet you one day, come up and bowl KnK we can have a $200 bet over our qualifying games, surely you would be way too good for a sandbagging, Fake state shirt wearing hack like myself.

You will see me I'll wear my deveer shirt for you, maybe we can go see a movie or got to the mall afterwards you know me being dressed for it and all.

 

[gjelectrics1]

These personal attacks are`doing nothing for our chosen sport guys. This forum is intended to be able to openly discuss things that are happening in it not having a go at each other

 

[strop]

I sorry Cam I was reading your post.

Very interesting, I just couldn't see what your claim to fame is?

Please enlighten me.........

Cheers

Tony

 

[bm2]

ENOUGH ALREADY!!!!!!

DeVeer at the nationals, as we know it, is finished - regardless of whether we sub 185 avg bowlers would like it to be or not. Rachuig is, and will ALWAYS be, the premier event at the nationals, regardless of how many of our countrys' top bowlers choose to bowl in it or not.

This is getting way too personal.

Lets just get on with bowling.....PLEASE?????

 

[Jase]

Well what do you know another Rachuig / De Veer thread on this site that turns into **** fighting…Tone it down and resort back to suggestions or I will turn it off…

](*,) ](*,) ](*,) ](*,) ](*,) ](*,)

 

[mannah]

Totally agree with Jase. This is now getting very personal. Lets get back to the topic.
I think all agree Rachuig is the Open State team. It should be made up of the best bowlers our State can provide. It should be very hard to get into and comprise dedicated and passionate bowlers of the highest level. They do earn their State shirts and justifiably so. However such dedication and committment comes at a huge cost financially, socially and emotionally. The time required for training, tournaments etc can impact dramatically on some and for many bowlers cannot be justified especially those with young families, job commitments on weekends, study commitments etc. I applaud all those prepared to undertake such a path and achieve their place in a Rachuig team.
However there are many others, myself included, who have been unable to commit such time/money to improving their bowling to achieve Open status or due to injury/illness/ability cannot and may never be able to make the grade. By being able to compete against other States on a head to head basis, with a representative team, to participate in the training sessions and opening ceremony, to make a WDV Team of the Year, to feel part of a state representative team keep the incentive to improve alive as well as gaining valuable tournament experience so that if I can improve myself as I would like, I can maybe try out for a Rachuig team with a reasonable chance of success. I have been able to improve by 30 pins since my first WDV team and now my studies are complete and my family are no longer at home, I aim to dedicate more time to training and further improvement. Rachuig one day..??... but if it had not been for the WDV tournament I doubt very much I would even still be bowling today.
WDV opened a whole world of bowling to me that my family never knew existed. We have all represented SA at WDV at least once over the years but with the time and financial constraints of buying their homes, weddings and young families my children and their partners are unable to consider Rachuig for quite a few more years. They are all at the upper end or over the WDV cutoff averages and thankfully they have no intention of even trying to sandbag to retain their eligibility.
The WDV tournament is a wonderful and energetic tournament, great competition, providing invaluable tournament experience for the lower average bowlers and unfortunately ruined by the actions of just a few. How else can a lower average bowler get similiar experience - compete at Open tournaments at a cost of over $1000 per time (ie airfares, accommodation & entry fees for east coast tournaments) knowing you have a snowball's chance in hell of making a cut to get the experience of bowling head to head and under great pressure on tough lane conditions. No thanks.
Lets hope TBA reconsider their decision and reinstate the WDV Tournament in its 2006 format.

 

[dunryc]

The other thing that has stood out like sore thumb, is the arrogance, rudeness and total contempt of other bowlers by this so called rachuig legend Jan Nordin.
Your attitude displayed in this thread has been ****ing appauling, im not one to take personal shots at people on here but considering you felt the need to take one at me i wont be holding back.
You make it sound like you are a 100 game veteran of rachiug and talk about state shirts are earnt, just one thing Jan the only state shirt you own is one you would have swapped because you dont even represent a state mate, you represent a terriorty but thats besides the point.
Well done mate you made rachuig not once but twice an achievement that many of us dream about and aspire to but it doesnt a license to be a total F-wit and belittle other bowlers and take pot shots at people who are trying to make suggestions on how to improve our sport.

Hi Cam!
First point of clarification, and the most important. I wasn't having a go at you, I was poking fun at Stormy - Colin Webber. I have no idea who you are, why would I bother? Have you ever bowled in anything noteworthy? If I were however, the only comment I would make, would be to run a spell check through your posts. Your spelling is appalling (Not appauling).

Second point. I've never claimed to be a Rachuig Legend, and I've never claimed to be an Elite bowler. I have been accused of being an elitist, but that's not the same thing. My only claim has been that Elite and Rep Bowlers have earned their titles, and that status has been diminished by WDV. The only arrogance and contempt I've displayed, is for the WDV bowlers that have tarnished the State Rep Image.

Third Point. You are correct. ACT is indeed not a State, but a Territory that enjoys representational status. At least you got one thing right.

Fourth Point. I made Rachuig in 1988 and 2006 and for reasons that I don't need to clarify to you or anyone else, didn't nominate any other year in between.

Fifth Point. I haven't seen too many suggestions on here about how to improve things. Just a bunch of WDV folks whining about the TBA trying to improve our sport by changing the structure and focus of an event that was an embarrassment and a whole lot of arguments about who has the right to claim representational status.

Last Point. Jason, by all means, I agree, close off all the WDV threads. We are arguing about something that doesn't even exist anymore!

Cheers
Jan