Should we allow the changes to DeVeer?

[dunryc]

cheers Brad [/COLOR]

Well, I wasn't going to say anymore, but how can I resist answering this!

So what is the difference? Age, so what! Your statement scratch is scratch the best of the best that should mean a scratch rep is exactly that. No difference due to age if they are good enough at 15 or 16, 19 0r 22 or 55 or 70 to be the elite so be it.
The handicap bowler is exactly that the best of their on level based of their average plus handicap… I am not arguing with you over management of average Just about what ppl can represent for to a set criteria and in saying so if there was a classic level the stepping stone approach would be there and no reason for average management by some.

I agree with one comment here. The elite are the best of the best scratch bowlers in the country, regardless of age. The difference is, that age divisions do exist so the best in each age division are also considered elite. Bowlers can also bowl across age brackets if they are good enough. Belmo bowls for Australia in Youth and Adult I believe. If there are Seniors who are still considered good enough to make the Adult team, I'm all for it! They compete scratch!!!!!
Handicap Bowlers are not necessarily the best of their level. It is an easy thing to make a WDV Team at a certain average, and then go practice like mad for a few weeks/months and improve dramatically and unfairly in my opinion be getting huge handicap starts when you don't deserve it. I've never seen a handicap format yet that can eliminate professional sandbagging, despite the best intentions of the tournament directors/committees.

What about the older bowler coming in our sport with the urge or desire to improve and become a rep for their state? ….What you only think the only way is thro juniors? Where do they get their experience from?

Older bowlers are already at a disadvantage when they start and it is a rare breed that can excel to representative levels after getting such a late start. I'm not saying that it doesn't happen, and congratulations to those that put in the effort to get there, but in my experience, the bulk of your rep players, and long term bowlers will start young and progress through the ranks and they are the ones to target and foster as the future of our sport. Older players starting in their mid 20's to 30's can learn their craft like we all had to when we were young. Watch, learn, gain knowledge and practice.

And what they need more exposure because of age than a adult who takes up our sport at 30 or even 23

NO, but again I say, they are the future of our sport and will make up the bulk of future representative teams so they should be nurtured and given every incentive to continue.

Jan "Well, I'm not the only elitist snob that has commented, but apart from some of the South Australian Contingency, the rest have been pretty quiet. The reasons for this are varied. I know a lot of my fellow Rachuig Bowlers feel the same way about WDV as I do, but as to why they haven't posted, I can only guess.
1. They have official affiliation with the TBA so are unable to post as it would be construed as official."
Are these the same people that made the decision? and are unwilling to openly discuss it in a public forum?

Not unwilling, but not allowed. There is a difference. There will be an official response from the TBA at some stage. Quick thank you to Brenton, Rob, Tony and Drew for your support.

Jan "2. They see anything to do with WDV in the title of the forum and ignore it as inconsequential. "
Is it because they are out of touch with either the grass roots of OUR sport and in doing so unlike yourself will to assist in development of others thro mentoring or unaccredited coaching as in earlier posted?

The reasons I proposed are not meant to be taken as a group. I was identifying possible different reasons why some of my Rachuig Peers were not prepared to post. But, to answer your question, The TBA are not out of touch, they are trying to find a resolution to a huge problem that has existed for far too long. Again, in my experience, nearly all TBA Executive Members, and Rachuig Bowlers are willing to mentor and offer advice and assist in training if they are approached. Some even actively seek out people to help. They need to be asked though, it is not a right nor should it be an expectation. Take responsibility for your own improvement, don't whine because no one is handing it to you.


Jan "4. They don't want to upset anyone so they remain politically correct sitting on the sidelines. "
Why not, fearful of the fall out or to be voted out next time around?

Again, this wasn't targetted at TBA Executive, but general Rachuig Bowlers. Some people don't like to cause waves and would rather stay silent. I, however, am quite happy to voice my opinion on something that I feel this strongly about.

Jan "5. They have better things to do than waste time battling against a bunch of people that they don't respect or take seriously. "
Interesting, if they are the elected rep for there centre at state level or higher within tba

Again, not directed at TBA. No elections enter into it. Personal choice.

Cheers
Jan

 

[JWhitty]

I thought I was being an "elitist snob" too. Must be mellowing in my old age.

Goddam, sorry Brenton, lost my head there. And Drew, for that matter. Sorry fellas.

Not unwilling, but not allowed. There is a difference. There will be an official response from the TBA at some stage.

I'd like to fully support this statement also, we should be respecting the fact that these people cannot or should not comment in this medium. Notice the "secret" meeting participants have also not contributed anything significant since the meeting either.

 

[gjelectrics1]

So what is`wrong with unofficially turning this new tournament into a DeVeer type tournamentand the various centre's , regions or groups of people holding rolloffs to find the best bowlers of that particular group of people, call them the "Whatever" team and enter that team?

 

[dunryc]

So what is`wrong with unofficially turning this new tournament into a DeVeer type tournamentand the various centre's , regions or groups of people holding rolloffs to find the best bowlers of that particular group of people, call them the "Whatever" team and enter that team?

Nothing is wrong with that. It is probably even encouraged as long as it isn't in the guise of State Representation. Drew and I suggested that over a week ago.

From what I can tell there is an opportunity to grow and expand the feeling, goodwill and competition of Deveer to many more than just 70 men and 70 women (why restrict it). There is nothing stopping anyone from entering their own teams, having roll offs to send centre association teams or regional teams etc etc. The potential is there to turn the new format into a massively attended tournament which is fun and competitive. Hopefully the door is not shut on tweaking the format, this tournament is in its first year. :

TBA has done the right thing and opened the WDV up to make it an open team event, but taken away the State team persona. No-one is stopping you from competing, and if anything, they have increased the potential for you all to have fun, and develop your friendships by expanding. They have just rightly taken away the State against State focus, but again, no-one is stopping you from having roll-offs and entering a team from your state, region or even centre. You just won't be wearing a State Shirt when you get there.

Jan

 

[gjelectrics1]

I realise that Jan, but alot of people need to see it about 50 times before they see they see the sense in it. the new tournament is in my opinion probably a better stepping stone or pathway to the top. People will bowl in and get the urge to do better against the so called best in the country. But saying that a lot of people like to get some sort of recognition for thier efforts which encourages them to go out there and improve thier bowling and compete on a higher level

 

[CHIN]

Jan and others, Jan"Youth, Junior and Senior Teams earn their representative strips because they are the best in their age bracket, and they bowl scratch."

So what is the difference? Age, so what! Your statement scratch is scratch the best of the best that should mean a scratch rep is exactly that. No difference due to age if they are good enough at 15 or 16, 19 0r 22 or 55 or 70 to be the elite so be it.
The handicap bowler is exactly that the best of their on level based of their average plus handicap… I am not arguing with you over management of average Just about what ppl can represent for to a set criteria and in saying so if there was a classic level the stepping stone approach would be there and no reason for average management by some. ]

This has probably said before but, other sports at State & National level have State & National Teams in different age groups. i.e. Soccer, Cricket. Tenpin Bowling is the only one I know of , or found that has State representatives on the handicap basis. Thank God it has'nt gone on to the National level yet.

Well, I'm not the only elitist snob that has commented, but apart from some of the South Australian Contingency, the rest have been pretty quiet. The reasons for this are varied. I know a lot of my fellow Rachuig Bowlers feel the same way about WDV as I do, but as to why they haven't posted, I can only guess.
1. They have official affiliation with the TBA so are unable to post as it would be construed as official.
2. They see anything to do with WDV in the title of the forum and ignore it as inconsequential.
3. They don't even read the boards.
4. They don't want to upset anyone so they remain politically correct sitting on the sidelines.
5. They have better things to do than waste time battling against a bunch of people that they don't respect or take seriously.
You'll all be pleased to know that I am rapidly falling into category 5 and probably won't waste my time or energy posting against you anymore. I've said all I have to say on the subject. I look forward to TBA's Official statements when they are forthcoming.
Cheers
Jan

I agree Jan, a lot of bowlers, behind the scenes agree but will not post there comments for fear of 1 of the above. While it looks like S.A. is oozing elitist snobs at the moment, & my next comment will probably put right up there with you Jan.

Is it better to be a,

1. Elitist snob.

or

2. An under achieving wanna be.

Surely with the scrapping of De Veer, the people who managed there averages to stay in De Veer year after year now have the chance to pull there finger out & work on there game to get to the next level by making there States Rachuig Team & posibly Nation teams then having a legitimate claim of being part of a State or National Team.
Or is it easier to have De Veer and stay mediocre & not do the hard work as many Rachuig & National Team members have done over the years to have the right to claim they have made there State or National side.

Further the spectator numbers to the Rachuig tournament have dropped off alarmingly since the inception of the DeVeer event and the prestige of Rachuig has dropped off accordingly.

Hit the nail right on the head Brenton. Support form bowlers & spectators started to fall dramatically in the mid to late 90's, around the time De Veer started. More concern than the spectator numbers dropping off would be the number of the country's elite bowlers that refuse to bowl Rachuig because of the affiliation with De Veer.

Cheers,

Sth Australia's No. 1 snob or 2nd or 3rd or 4th. I dont know, there's so many to choose from.

 

[tidal wave]

gents all i have to say is what is the event that stops a nation ....the melbourne cup and guess what ...A HANDICAPPED EVENT ... and with all of the other sports mentioned and others they all have the second tier of representatives so the australian b cricket side is not a representative side or does that only fall on to the colt or under 23 team or the b or c grade socceroo side that play the qualifying rounds of oceania tourny they not rep sides .... or are they but they dont have the elite in them

 

[tidal wave]

jan
quote "I agree with one comment here. The elite are the best of the best scratch bowlers in the country, regardless of age. The difference is, that age divisions do exist so the best in each age division are also considered elite. Bowlers can also bowl across age brackets if they are good enough."
So until the dropping of the de veer rep tourny because of your "divisions do exist" existed is it not a fair assumption to say the de veer bowl is still a rep for that restricted grade or event ?
cheers
brad aka soccer mom

 

[stormy]

Conspiracy Theory

The Truth Is Out There Somewhere

Theory 1. Who made the decision to change Deveer. Was it done at the TBA AGM…. Which I doubt (although there is a separate meeting for managers) as the representative from each state is there only to elect the new members or change anything that is brought up constitutionally.

Theory 2. The decision to change Deveer (please correct me if I’m wrong) was made at the Sate Managers meeting with TBA at the Nationals.

Theory 3. Who elects these state managers, are they appointed by their states, the obvious answer is no, they are appointed by the TBA to carry out the views and ideas of the TBA Board. Look at when people knew that Deveer was finished.

Theory 4. Most people had an idea in November and December so the only possible time frame for the decision was at the Nationals.

When did I find out .. November by two independent sources one of which was a state manager.

Confirming this with our own acting state manager at the time (as TBA will only consider people who will act or who can be directed to act in the best interests of TBA), well he wouldn’t commit himself (by saying he didn’t know anything about it). I suppose they were told to hang off until the official announcement was made by TBA. (Conspiracy??? Or sound politics)

I believe that the states should appoint their own state managers and they should be held accountable for their actions by their own state associations if they do not act in accordance with the wishes of the state. (once again I could be wrong here, but I don’t think so).

If they had been voicing the views of the state associations this forum may or may not be where it is now. If they (the managers) had spoken to the associations first, you never know the associations may have backed TBA on this, now we will never know.

If you look at other National Championships there are based on scratch, so when you compete you go against the best, this is the best way to improve.
I can think of one sport that if you score over the entry level into a higher grade that is what you compete in from then on, a grading card is issued and is signed by the secretary of the club etc to say what you have scored. (You could never go back down a grade unless you could show that you have never in a whole year been able to score in that grade) My aim was to be in Master Grade for my chosen events, which I did achieve, and yes I did represent ACT for 5 years in my chosen sport.

Many Deveer bowlers keep saying it is the friendships made, and some have made it a family affair, but is this really good for the sport, do they really want to progress, would not the alternative to Deveer give them a better means of progressing.

Unfortunately we have two groups who have very different views when it comes to the way they bowl. It may be that by opening up the way Deveer is bowled now and let in higher average bowlers we may see the nationals grow in popularity and the fun that Deveer people have spreads to even those who bowl Rauchuig.

Colin

 

[dunryc]

gents all i have to say is what is the event that stops a nation ....the melbourne cup and guess what ...A HANDICAPPED EVENT ... and with all of the other sports mentioned and others they all have the second tier of representatives so the australian b cricket side is not a representative side or does that only fall on to the colt or under 23 team or the b or c grade socceroo side that play the qualifying rounds of oceania tourny they not rep sides .... or are they but they dont have the elite in them

Brad,
As has been mentioned before, Australia B, Colts or whatever compete with who whoever on equal footing with no handicap involved and no possibility of average tampering. Are you seriously suggesting that cricketers would purposely bat badly or bowl a few extra wides so they can stay in the B Side? Handicapping in Horseracing is hardly comparable to handicapping in bowling, but even if you want to use that analogy, the handicapping in horse racing purely exists for betting purposes, not as a test of ability. To use your theory, Belmo and Walshy should give everyone else 15-20 pins a game start. Or better yet, any Member of the Australian team should have to carry a 10 kilo weight in their pocket when they bowl.

Sheesh!

 

[dunryc]

So until the dropping of the de veer rep tourny because of your "divisions do exist" existed is it not a fair assumption to say the de veer bowl is still a rep for that restricted grade or event ?
cheers
brad aka soccer mom

No, because as has been mentioned 100 times now, they don't bowl scratch and best of the best doesn't apply!

Thanks for the support Rob. Welcome to the elitist snob club!

Jan

 

[tidal wave]

jan ,
Handicapping in Horseracing is hardly comparable to handicapping in bowling, but even if you want to use that analogy, the handicapping in horse racing purely exists for betting purposes, not as a test of ability
it is a test of ability ...best carry more weight ..... to equalise the field ... a direct comparision ....both open to malipulation for a result ..... but just how many fine cotton bold personalities affairs are there in both sports

 

[tidal wave]

jan i have drawn ur attention to the difference between the act Rachuig and de veer male Scratch scores for 06 state team challege and the out come after handicap

 

[dunryc]

jan ,
Handicapping in Horseracing is hardly comparable to handicapping in bowling, but even if you want to use that analogy, the handicapping in horse racing purely exists for betting purposes, not as a test of ability
it is a test of ability ...best carry more weight ..... to equalise the field ... a direct comparision ....both open to malipulation for a result ..... but just how many fine cotton bold personalities affairs are there in both sports

"Both open to manipulation for a result".
Except the horse has no choice. I don't think the horse picks his starting weight. The horse is manipulated, the bowler does the manipulating! Any cheating done by the horse is through no fault of the horse. Sandbagging bowlers are just flat out cheats! Oh wait, I get the comparison now. It's not your fault that you aren't good enough to make Rachuig. Somebody else is to blame. Your Dad made you throw off and keep your average low enough for WDV! You were so good they made you throw a 21 pound ball and you got tired! You were so good that you were only allowed to bowl 10 games in a 12 game qualifyer! You were so good that they used to punch you in the guts before you bowled tournaments to give everyone else a chance!

OK, so I'm being facetious here, but there is no correlation between bowling and horseracing.

Jan

 

[dunryc]

jan i have drawn ur attention to the difference between the act Rachuig and de veer male Scratch scores for 06 state team challege and the out come after handicap

And just what does that have to do with anything that we are discussing here? You are talking about 1 weekend tournament that most of us had no interest in bowling in, with one of our best bowlers on his honeymoon and taking that to actually mean something? You are really searching here aren't you!

Jan

 

[CHIN]

Who gives a rats arse about what they do in horse racing. scraping the bottom of the sports barrel now trying to justify your argument.

It's easy, if you want to be known as a State team member....... Practice

None of this back door crap.

 

[tidal wave]

jan,
this seems like an excuse just like "Your Dad made you throw off and keep your average low enough for WDV! You were so good they made you throw a 21 pound ball and you got tired! You were so good that you were only allowed to bowl 10 games in a 12 game qualifyer! You were so good that they used to punch you in the guts before you bowled tournaments to give everyone else a chance! "etc Is it not the case being an elitist means you should give you best at all times and when the general observer looks to see what is happening the elite should be on show and not the non rep teams
soccer mom

 

[zoedog]

Gentlemen Please!!!

Agree to disagree..........As I said when this debate first started, I don't care what they call it, or what's on the shirt, I believe that those of us who are wanting to improve should get the opportunity to compete in tournaments that cater for our level. I think that somewhere between what the TBA is proposing, what Max has suggested and elements of WDV.... is a tournament waiting to happen!

I've been searching the internet for information on bowling in general (trying to learn more to improve my game!) and I came across this site:http://abtbowling.com/.

Seems to me there is a large tournament circuit in America that caters for the handicapped bowler. Check out their membership application: http://abtbowling.com/tournaments/application1004.pdf

They have a spring nationals event coming up in 2007 that caters the scratch, handicapped & senior bowler. NOW THAT'S WHAT I'M TALKIN' 'BOUT!!!. They seem to know how to put tournaments together...but before you scream "that's the USA, we couldn't do that here" I concede that the sheer scale of what they do is huge because they have the numbers of bowlers.

The point I a trying to make is this: I know there were valid reasons why the TBA was compelled to take the action they did (not least of which was probably govt funding), however I do believe that given the outrage and interest in their decision, they should at least consider consulting relevant stakeholders about refining/improving on what they are suggesting. After all, I for one would be disappointed if, because of all the whoooohaaaa about their decision, NO tournament was held.

Angy

 

[CHIN]

Gentlemen Please!!!
Agree to disagree..........As I said when this debate first started, I don't care what they call it, or what's on the shirt, I believe that those of us who are wanting to improve should get the opportunity to compete in tournaments that cater for our level. I think that somewhere between what the TBA is proposing, what Max has suggested and elements of WDV.... is a tournament waiting to happen!
I've been searching the internet for information on bowling in general (trying to learn more to improve my game!) and I came across this site:http://abtbowling.com/.
Seems to me there is a large tournament circuit in America that caters for the handicapped bowler. Check out their membership application: http://abtbowling.com/tournaments/application1004.pdf
They have a spring nationals event coming up in 2007 that caters the scratch, handicapped & senior bowler. NOW THAT'S WHAT I'M TALKIN' 'BOUT!!!. They seem to know how to put tournaments together...but before you scream "that's the USA, we couldn't do that here" I concede that the sheer scale of what they do is huge because they have the numbers of bowlers.
The point I a trying to make is this: I know there were valid reasons why the TBA was compelled to take the action they did (not least of which was probably govt funding), however I do believe that given the outrage and interest in their decision, they should at least consider consulting relevant stakeholders about refining/improving on what they are suggesting. After all, I for one would be disappointed if, because of all the whoooohaaaa about their decision, NO tournament was held.
Angy

Hey Andrew,

If people want De Veer thats fine, if TBA dont want to run the tournament I dont think anybody has any gripes if the States get together and run the tournament themselves.

I think it has been suggested on 1 of the De Veer threads why dont they get together and run some max 184 ave National handicap tournaments. Their would be a lot more people out their with between 160-184 ave than currently turning up & bowling some of the Open Scratch National tournament Circuit.
But then again you have the same problem. The same system is open to the same abuse that caused De Veer to be cancelled in the first place.

Whenever you have anything involving handicap the system is open to abuse by a certain % of the people taking part. And this is why TBA has obviously said enough is enough. If the bowlers cant play by the rules. The rest is history.

The thing that annoys some of us is the fact that in De Veer bowlers eyes, De Veer & Rachuig bowlers are all State Team Reps.
Why should some De Veer bowlers have that right when they go out of there way to bowl bad (sandbag) to stay eligible for De Veer year after year & msileadingly claim that they are a member of the State Team when the Elite & Rachuig bowlers have worked their arses off over the years to have to same bragging rights.

 

[dunryc]

jan,
this seems like an excuse just like "Your Dad made you throw off and keep your average low enough for WDV! You were so good they made you throw a 21 pound ball and you got tired! You were so good that you were only allowed to bowl 10 games in a 12 game qualifyer! You were so good that they used to punch you in the guts before you bowled tournaments to give everyone else a chance! "etc Is it not the case being an elitist means you should give you best at all times and when the general observer looks to see what is happening the elite should be on show and not the non rep teams
soccer mom

You're right. That was an excuse. At the end of the day, we still beat WDV and everyone else on the scratch side. So what's your point?
As I recall, it had something to do with us only beating WDV by whatever margin a game on average. So what? That proves one of 2 things.

A. We didn't care but still did enough to win, therefore we are much better because we can beat them without really trying or.
B. WDV bowlers all bowled way above WDV average and are therefore sandbaggers!

Either way it's an argument you probably shouldn't be pushing and it really isn't relevant in this discussion unless you want to confirm the presence of sandbagging in WDV.

Jan