SA Cup scoring pace - was it high enough?

[GeorgeF]

With the first cut being -96 for 10, the 2nd cut needing only +64 for 18 game total was it too low?

I feel the best bowlers still dominated but how about the average Joe bowler who showed up and scored well under their house shot avg? Will they come back after the experience?

I personally feel the scores should be higher (new article soon to be featured in whats the score ) I like the scores from last years SA cup as I thought more players had a chance and a larger variety of styles could score.

Whats your views?

Should it be higher?
Should it be lower?
Was it ok?

Vote and comment now

 

[wchester]

Shouldn't the 'better' bowlers dominate the finals spots? Isn't that what drives any sport? The better man, woman, child or team has a good chance to win every time they compete on a scratch basis. That's why it's called a Super Six tournament and not a graded or handicap tour .

If bowlers feels they can't compete with our top players they have to make one of three choices:

1) Bowl and learn .....ie. "pay their dues"
2) Bowl and whinge at the result.... ie. "make excuses for their inadequacies"
3) Dedicate themselves towards becoming a skilled bowler through practice and learning.

 

[emmtee83]

I am one of your average Joe bowlers that bowled this event this year and I found the scoring to be fine. Not too big, so as the house bowler has no hope, and wasn't too low, that even some of your bigger names struggled. If memory serves me right, even the great George cut in 31st place...

I for one will bowl this event next year, and I have taken away a few lessons that will hopefully enable me to do better next time round. But I think the scoring rate was fine. You really had to throw a good shot to score well, just the way it should be.

 

[tonx]

The scoring pace was perfect.

 

[Brenton_Davy]

The only scoring pace that wasn't high enough was mine!

For that I have only myself to blame. Insufficient preparation meant I had a rough first day and only on the 2nd day did I find any rythm. I have no drama either way from a personal point of view (4th last year, 3rd this year), just there was a lot more satisfaction from a good game because you knew you really earned it.

 

[da_cowman]

Does bowling need to create a 'par' score?

I'm sure this argument has popped up before, but I was driving the other day and saw an 18 hole golf course with a par of 60. Now, I don't know for sure, but thats pretty low (or high scoring, whichever way you wanna look at it) scoring. My maths tells me about 12 shots lower then that normally used by the PGA.
Because Average Joe rocks and sees the par at 60 they know what to expect. I'm assuming, nice wide fairways, pretty easy pin placements, etc etc.
Why can't bowling take the same route... SA Cup, par score 195... Then when it's a little easier, par score rises to the 215's-220 region. It gives the average joe straight up knowledge of what kind of scoring pace to be expecting from the event. To most people the diagram of the oil pattern means jack all. This tiny bit of knowledge is all they need to walk away from the event and think... you know what, maybe i'm not that far off the pace, as opposed to 180 average, thats 40 less then normal... this game sucks...

Later Da Cowman!

 

[AdrianS]

It looked lower than it was. Sounds strange but remeber there was only 69 bowlers not 120 like the old days, so just under half the field over 190 isnt exactly awful.

 

[Pie]

The scoring pace was spot-on.
If you made good shots, you scored well. When you made a poor shot, you were penalised (heavily in most cases), this is how the sport of bowling should be played.

 

[SNEEZY]

I like most that have already posted think the scores at the SA Cup were quite acceptable.

I really don't understand the facination on have oil patterns or lane conditions that promote phone number like scores. Although I didn't bowl in any real major tournaments last year I did notice that the scores (in my opinion) were a little excessively high in some tournaments. Whilst I am not here to knock those that bowl well, how well someone bowls depends alot on preparation and the pattern that is laid down for the tournament and how it suits those bowlers.

For a tournament of any calibre whether it be Super Six or house tournament, I think that the pattern laid down needs to be challenging to the bowlers participating and one that makes the bowler either think about the shot or adjust in a way to create a shot.

As a Joe average bowler that bowls the odd tournament here and there this was the first time I cut in the SA Cup. Whilst I have improved slowly over the last few years. I believe that the tournament condition that was laid down was a fair one. Having bowled in the tournament and been able to cut with just a 192 ave I find this more encouraging and a lift of self confidence rather than bowling a 200 ave and still not cutting because the cut for the tournament is around 205 ave. If tournaments were made challenging enough like the SA Cup where the cut line may be around the 185-190 ave mark this may encourage the Joe average bowler to give a tournament a go as he or she may think they have a chance and may even be prepared to spend the money and give it a go.

Just my opinion

THANKS

DAVID SNIEDZE

 

[Street Racer]

does it matter if the scoring pace was high or low? isnt bowling about getting to the pocket(adjusting etc), not how easy or hard the lanes are...

unless i am missing a point here?

 

[CHIN]

I suppose some people think they are better bowlers than what they really are averaging 235+ on a ditch than average 190 -200 on a tough condition.

Surely having to hit a small target consistently to score well on a tough condition is going to be more benificial to a bowlers inprovment than just having to throw the ball anywhere outside 3rd arrow.

 

[Amf Facilities]

Thanks for all the positive responses
IMHO the left to Right balance was good also

Greg Robertson
National Facilities Manager
Amf Bowling Centres Australia

 

[The Devil's Advocate]

I think you are all missing the point here, concentrating on the high or low scoring, although this thread did start as scoring, the conditions will always be questioned, so lets put it in proper perspective, my performance was ok on the latter half of the first day and I burned and crashed on the second - my fault so no sour grapes.
Unless you were a high rev bowler, you could bowl anyway as long as it was between 4 and seven board, then the ball got to the pocket, and yes it was basically a ditch after 3 games in that area, so are we bowling "around" the condition laid down or "using" the condition laid down, no stroker or centre bowler could bowl inside 9 with great success.
So many threads have been around why bowlers don't bowl in these tournaments, main answers - prize money not enough to offset costs of getting there, and yet these tournaments are dwindling in numbers, this one almost half of what has been so critically ask why and then do something about it - same as life - the richer gets richer, the bowler used to these conditions wants it tougher and the poor centre bowler says too tough not bowling.
The centre bowler and local bowlers are the bowlers which will make up the "lower" 30% of the field, generally, no disrespect intended, a fact of life, the better bowlers will generally score consistently higher than the centre bowlers on all conditions as they have been trained to adjust better and their game is better, so the more knowledgeable bowler will always come to the top.
How do we increase the field - by making shot making a little more open (did I say easier - NO) open for more technique types to be able to score and test THEIR game against the "Best" bowlers Australia has to offer, thats why I started bowling tournaments years ago, to test myself against the bigger names to see how I compare, ahh yes the days of when bowling was a game not a money making event for the selected few - you want more money, get sponsorship (how hard is that) or get more bowlers - how - open the lane up so these guys CAN bowl at least their league average 190 + not come here and get totally screwed and shattered by bowling 20 pins below their ave, who cares if the winners bowl 230+ ave, it will draw crowds because people want to see those scores and our "best" who can do it - at least the centre bowler has had a good experience, even though they finished in the lower 30% and will return again.
Some people say these have to bethe conditions for selection nationally, so hold special events for those bowlers only where they fund it by entering and bowl on tough conditions, but we need to change our attitude to these National and State tournaments to encourage mid average bowlers to compete against the best, this will ultimately make those bowlers better and also our better bowlers better because they then have bowlers pushing them.
I know there will probably be a backlash to me for this but you all sit and think for a while like I have after the event before making judgement and then ask yourself would you prefer to bowl in a tournament with 120 strong field than 60, the atmosphere and excitement is better, remember the Perth cup guys - a great tournament, good conditions and lots of local bowlers - why was it the seniors hammer classic had reserves wanting to get in, yes it was full ladies and gentlemen, long time since you heard of that, and the prize fund wasn't that great - why beacuse we love playing the game and competing, the seniors airfares are still the same as yours, the hire cars the same, cost of food the same - so are we just senile in our senior years or are the younger ones missing the essence of the game?
Ok guys slap me as much as you like because for everyone that disagrees one will agree, listen to your local bowlers. .... I enjoyed the SA cup and will probably be back next year, funds and walking frame permitting.
Would the top 10 have been the same if the conditons were say 4:1 or 5:1, instead of the 2:1 at best

 

[tonx]

The pattern was 4.5-1.

 

[The Devil's Advocate]

Sorry Tonx,
I will have to dissagree with you, you are probably taking the ratio printed of 4.50 which is the ratio of oil, between 20 board to 2 board.
When talking ratio for shot making I was taught you add oil from boards 3 to 7 left and right, then divide the average into the average oil 18 board to 18 board, hence 3020/10=302 (3-7 L&R) divided into 4500/5=900(18 to 18) the ratio being 2.98:1 this is less than what the PBA use, they have loads more oil on the inside allowing for shot making.
What we are really looking at is if someone shoots outside they need to have the ball come up to the pocket, if they shoot inside they need it to hold to reach the pocket, not jump all over the place as was the SA cup, the SA cup was a 3:1 and allows only to make it tough, not for everyone, to save argument guys, go to this website from no other than Kegel and read what I have just said is true, if you want bowlers to come back to tournament bowling get the above ratio to min 4:1 and you will have a good scoring condition, don't get confused about 4.50:1 on the kegel chart....read on my friends and all you can do is give it a try, you seemed to have tried everything else and still the numbers drop...get the bowlers back...see this site (http://www.kegel.net/library/foArticles.asp?iKodYazi=26) copy and paste between the brackets, the ATBSO in Perth last year was 5:1 and all types of bowlers had shots and scored, so the proof is already there, and if you need names who bowled well on them see Tony Stoppel, Chris Benson, Frank Ryan, Lawrie Hill, Greg Ball, 2 X 300 by Tapio Hynynen, these are not gymp bowlers my friends, just ask them was it too easy or did you have to make the shot??
As I said before Tonx think first do research then slap me, if I'm wrong I will apologise and admit it.

 

[Amf Facilities]

Sorry Tonx,
I will have to dissagree with you, you are probably taking the ratio printed of 4.50 which is the ratio of oil, between 20 board to 2 board.
When talking ratio for shot making I was taught you add oil from boards 3 to 7 left and right, then divide the average into the average oil 18 board to 18 board, hence 3020/10=302 (3-7 L&R) divided into 4500/5=900(18 to 18) the ratio being 2.98:1 this is less than what the PBA use, they have loads more oil on the inside allowing for shot making.
What we are really looking at is if someone shoots outside they need to have the ball come up to the pocket, if they shoot inside they need it to hold to reach the pocket, not jump all over the place as was the SA cup, the SA cup was a 3:1 and allows only to make it tough, not for everyone, to save argument guys, go to this website from no other than Kegel and read what I have just said is true, if you want bowlers to come back to tournament bowling get the above ratio to min 4:1 and you will have a good scoring condition, don't get confused about 4.50:1 on the kegel chart....read on my friends and all you can do is give it a try, you seemed to have tried everything else and still the numbers drop...get the bowlers back...see this site (http://www.kegel.net/library/foArticles.asp?iKodYazi=26) copy and paste between the brackets, the ATBSO in Perth last year was 5:1 and all types of bowlers had shots and scored, so the proof is already there, and if you need names who bowled well on them see Tony Stoppel, Chris Benson, Frank Ryan, Lawrie Hill, Greg Ball, 2 X 300 by Tapio Hynynen, these are not gymp bowlers my friends, just ask them was it too easy or did you have to make the shot??
As I said before Tonx think first do research then slap me, if I'm wrong I will apologise and admit it.

This is the same method used by the TBA to Determine the Ratio
however you can not just read a composite graph and say the ratio
is X Y Z
to calculate the ratio a Lane tape must be taken @ 10 - 15 feet @20 - 25 feet and 1 foot inside the end of the buff zone.
a Composite graph does not show the pattern broken down in to length
when the pattern is graphed with the lane analiyser ( Excuse Spelling )
the Pattern with show 2.1:/1 @ 10 feet 3.6:/1 @ 25 and 6.25:/1 @ 40 feet

Ratio from the composite graph has little bearing on how the lane will play.
The transition portion of the lane has more affect the scoring pace.
( 28 - 34 feet) and can not be predicted from the composite graph

For instance i have a Pattern the has a 10:/1 ratio on the composite graph
and a pattern that is 6.25:1 on composite graph
the 6.25:/1 averages around 18 - 20 pins per game higher

The pattern the I wrote for 2007 SA Cup in my opinion was a little to open
This years pattern was similar but the loads were widened to straighten
up the shot.
This has the affect of moving more bowlers into the same area of the lane
Hence more Break Down and More moves = Lower Scores

P.s i have read alot of information from the Kegel and Foundation websites
i am in regular contact with most of the guys that wrote it.

 

[Brenton_Davy]

This is the same method used by the TBA to Determine the Ratio
however you can not just read a composite graph and say the ratio
is X Y Z
to calculate the ratio a Lane tape must be taken @ 10 - 15 feet @20 - 25 feet and 1 foot inside the end of the buff zone.
a Composite graph does not show the pattern broken down in to length
when the pattern is graphed with the lane analiyser ( Excuse Spelling )
the Pattern with show 2.1:/1 @ 10 feet 3.6:/1 @ 25 and 6.25:/1 @ 40 feet
Ratio from the composite graph has little bearing on how the lane will play.
The transition portion of the lane has more affect the scoring pace.
( 28 - 34 feet) and can not be predicted from the composite graph
For instance i have a Pattern the has a 10:/1 ratio on the composite graph
and a pattern that is 6.25:1 on composite graph
the 6.25:/1 averages around 18 - 20 pins per game higher
The pattern the I wrote for 2007 SA Cup in my opinion was a little to open
This years pattern was similar but the loads were widened to straighten
up the shot.
This has the affect of moving more bowlers into the same area of the lane
Hence more Break Down and More moves = Lower Scores
P.s i have read alot of information from the Kegel and Foundation websites
i am in regular contact with most of the guys that wrote it.

And this is why, in my opinion, there were 2 lefties in the stepladder. The righthanders all played different angles and breakpoints, hence they "scattergunned" the right side. The lefties that made matchplay ALL played a similar (almost identical) angle and breakpoint and as a result opened up a bit of an area. Had all the righties played the same breakpoint even from different trajectories, then possibly more right handers might have made the 'ladder. I know this is contradicting what you have posted Greg, but if my reasoning is incorrect, I need to know why

Paul, I believe the reality here is that (and Greg can jump in and knock this theory on the head if he wants) the righties in this country can't band together and play the same breakpoint as the lefties do naturally. As a result, the lefties are, in the main going to be advantaged by a pattern such as was laid down at Cross Road, purely because of their propensity for all playing similar breakpoints.

Once the righties (as they do on the PBA) all play for the same breakpoint then they might start to erode the advantage the lefites had. By the same token, I don't believe that the righties can expect people like Greg to deliberately start trying to slow the lefties down as happened in at least one tournament last year. Its a a matter of all the righties getting on the same page.

 

[BELMO]

And this is why, in my opinion, there were 2 lefties in the stepladder. The righthanders all played different angles and breakpoints, hence they "scattergunned" the right side. The lefties that made matchplay ALL played a similar (almost identical) angle and breakpoint and as a result opened up a bit of an area. Had all the righties played the same breakpoint even from different trajectories, then possibly more right handers might have made the 'ladder. QUOTE]

Brenton,

Dont supposed the part of the lane the lefties opened up was outside of 7??? Just curious, i would be only guessing, not 100%!

Lane conditioning is almost impossible to make it 100% fair.

there is no pattern that will allows us to know 100% for sure who is better on any given day. (left or right, im referring to)
You would need a tournament where exactly the same amount of lefties and righties bowled, in a bowling centre that was 100% flat. Good luck finding that anywhere around the world!

I am 100% sure that when the lefties whinge about 'being shut out' (in this country anyway) that its not the fact they are shut out, its just that 10 to the gutter is out of play.
Perhaps if a left handed bowler could get in a little and play further to the right, the perfect reaction would be found.

Oh how i would love to play the gutter like the lefties do almost every event. But its never there for us righties, so we do what all bowlers must do........MOVE.
But when the gutter isnt there for the lefites what happens?? It's said you guys are shut out......just move alittle.......create some more rotation and slow down......us right handers had to learn!

I cant really comment on SA cup 08, i wasnt there, but i am just wondering what happened on the first day to the lefties and then what happened to the righties on the 2nd day??
I find it hard to believe that all the lefties bowled bad the first day, then all the lefties found their rythem and chose the right ball and all played a 'new' part of the lane and then shot millions.......same goes to the righties on the 2nd day.....doubt that everyone moved and used a different ball just because they wanted to see what happened and lose pins on the field. I doubt that 100%.
................And hey, as bad as the above question sounds, im not suggesting any cheating, far from it, just want to know what happened.
When you read it on paper overseas, just doesnt make any sense! Well not 100% of the time!........................

Anyway, back to patterns.........

Current Symetrical patterns will never work, because there are uneven number of left and right handers breaking down the lane. There will always be an advantage to one side or the other.

The best and fairest pattern i have seen was in KL 2006. I ran 2nd, first was another righty and 3rd and 4th were lefties.
We all used plastic. The left side of the lane and the right side of the lane were hardly affected by the oil pattern......... because there was no bloody oil.
We all still averaged over 230 ( the TV SHOW GUYS ANYWAY)

Now im not saying we should all go back to plastic, although that would benefit me a little, but you need to take the destrusction of the lane (by the new and super balls) out of play.

Frawls told me about a pattern that was 100ml's of oil at 45ft. Noone could turn the ball but you never moved either. The most accurate bowler won.

SA CUP, AO, BRUNSWICK.....Look Australia is but a small grain of sand in world bowling, but that deosnt mean we cant make our grain of sand the best grain of sand in the world.
WE dont have to follow PBA patterns, WTBA or FIQ patterns 100% of the time...... its time we did our own, did our own testing,......somehow find a way that we eliminate the question "was it easier on the left/right?"
When that happens, bowling will regain some credibilty!

100%

Belmo

ps- Just wanted to see how many times i could type "100%"

 

[Brenton_Davy]

I am 100% sure that when the lefties whinge about 'being shut out' (in this country anyway) that its not the fact they are shut out, its just that 10 to the gutter is out of play.
Perhaps if a left handed bowler could get in a little and play further to the right, the perfect reaction would be found.

Belmo,

I have won and cut in tournaments playing 4th arrow with the ball not getting outside 13 (Rachuig high average in 2000, being probably the best of those on a massive reverse block) so it can be done by the lefties. I will grant you that the inside shot needs to be pretty dry for me to do that and that it is a long way from my comfort zone. What you must realise as well is that the inside on the left is very seldom tracked out like the right is and therefore the opportunity for speed dominant, no-handers like me to gain friction somewhere on the lane inside is fairly rare.

As for the outside never being there forthe right handers, don't you think its possibly a similar problem for the righ handers that most feel well outside their comfort zone when outside 5 board, especially as most righ handers belly the ball away from the pocket. Its as a result of the environment they have learned the game in. I agree with you that the lefties feel out of their depth inside 10 board (if you'll pardon the pun!), but just as much,. most right handers feel most uncomfortable outside 5 board. I feel the shot is there, just most right handers can't (or won't ) play it. I will grant that right handers are, in the main, more versatile than the lefties, however I still believe that most of them are just as far outside their comfort zone when outside 5 board as most of the the lefties are inside 5 board.

Trust your overseas trip is successful.

 

[Amf Facilities]

And this is why, in my opinion, there were 2 lefties in the stepladder. The righthanders all played different angles and breakpoints, hence they "scattergunned" the right side. The lefties that made matchplay ALL played a similar (almost identical) angle and breakpoint and as a result opened up a bit of an area. Had all the righties played the same breakpoint even from different trajectories, then possibly more right handers might have made the 'ladder. I know this is contradicting what you have posted Greg, but if my reasoning is incorrect, I need to know why
Paul, I believe the reality here is that (and Greg can jump in and knock this theory on the head if he wants) the righties in this country can't band together and play the same breakpoint as the lefties do naturally. As a result, the lefties are, in the main going to be advantaged by a pattern such as was laid down at Cross Road, purely because of their propensity for all playing similar breakpoints.
Once the righties (as they do on the PBA) all play for the same breakpoint then they might start to erode the advantage the lefites had. By the same token, I don't believe that the righties can expect people like Greg to deliberately start trying to slow the lefties down as happened in at least one tournament last year. Its a a matter of all the righties getting on the same page.

In Some ways you are correct Brenton but its more about the consumption of Head oil and how it transitions to the mid lane. It can work both ways depending on the moves that bowlers make.
if they all make similar moves around the same time it is possible to open up the pattern. But the vast majority of the time this does not happen. Some guys will always move out ( If in Doubt move out ) and some will always move in. Some will not Move at all.

If the conditioner was more inside( 12 - 12 ) the effect on depletion is not as defined
less moves will be required because most of the conditioner carried into the mid Lane will be to far inside the break point to make much difference it will just create hold area