SA Cup scoring pace - was it high enough?

[Amf Facilities]

And this is why, in my opinion, there were 2 lefties in the stepladder. The righthanders all played different angles and breakpoints, hence they "scattergunned" the right side. The lefties that made matchplay ALL played a similar (almost identical) angle and breakpoint and as a result opened up a bit of an area. Had all the righties played the same breakpoint even from different trajectories, then possibly more right handers might have made the 'ladder. I know this is contradicting what you have posted Greg, but if my reasoning is incorrect, I need to know why
Paul, I believe the reality here is that (and Greg can jump in and knock this theory on the head if he wants) the righties in this country can't band together and play the same breakpoint as the lefties do naturally. As a result, the lefties are, in the main going to be advantaged by a pattern such as was laid down at Cross Road, purely because of their propensity for all playing similar breakpoints.
Once the righties (as they do on the PBA) all play for the same breakpoint then they might start to erode the advantage the lefites had. By the same token, I don't believe that the righties can expect people like Greg to deliberately start trying to slow the lefties down as happened in at least one tournament last year. Its a a matter of all the righties getting on the same page.

I know the Pattern you are talking about
It was never intended to slow anybody down but more to counteract the
affect of Bad Topography.

 

[Brenton_Davy]

Greg,

Did you write the Melbourne Cup pattern as that was the event I was referring to? That is a bit of a surprise if you did. By the same token, even though that event was one instance of the pattern being written to deliberately slow the lefties (from the tournament director not me), there was still a way in for the lefties, just mine got sabotaged on the first day because the only ball I had that worked there got gouged the practice frames the first day. When I got it back the 2nd day (thanks to a great repair job by Karl Goodger) I shot well over the card but the damage had been done.

There is an ethical dilemna in tweeking the pattern to "slow down" one side or advantage the other. Unless such a pattern is published and stuck to at least a month prior to the event, then there there is a problem in taking the entry fee of the bowlers that have been deliberately set out to be disadvantaged. Its like going to the US Open. That event has had the same pattern since 2003 (1:1 to 40 feet, no buff, taper etc) and the bowlers know what to expect and enter the event knowing they are going to be tested by the most brutal, unforgiving condition on tour. By doing this, any ethical dilemna in disadvantaging high rev swing shot players is taken care of because every player knows what they are going to get.

It may be that considerable prior notice of patterns, however inconvenient or logistically difficult, may become a necessity.

 

[strop]

I'm just curious to a rumour that the new machine at Cross Roads was buffing out 2 foot more on the left than the right?
And they cant figure it out why?
Whether it made a difference or not, who knows.
The conditions opened up more on the left on the sunday?
Why? not sure on that either.
All I know is that I bowled bad and that is that, I have only myself to blame? All over and move on to the next....

Cheers

Tony

 

[Amf Facilities]

I wasn't talking about melbourne cup
no i didn't write the pattern

 

[Amf Facilities]

I'm just curious to a rumour that the new machine at Cross Roads was buffing out 2 foot more on the left than the right?
And they cant figure it out why?
Whether it made a difference or not, who knows.
The conditions opened up more on the left on the sunday?
Why? not sure on that either.
All I know is that I bowled bad and that is that, I have only myself to blame? All over and move on to the next....
Cheers
Tony

It is not possible to buff further on the left than right the buffer brush is either up or down and thats it

Not sure about the lanes being more open on the sunday as i was unable
to attend due to family reasons

 

[Amf Facilities]

Greg,
Did you write the Melbourne Cup pattern as that was the event I was referring to? That is a bit of a surprise if you did. By the same token, even though that event was one instance of the pattern being written to deliberately slow the lefties (from the tournament director not me), there was still a way in for the lefties, just mine got sabotaged on the first day because the only ball I had that worked there got gouged the practice frames the first day. When I got it back the 2nd day (thanks to a great repair job by Karl Goodger) I shot well over the card but the damage had been done.
There is an ethical dilemna in tweeking the pattern to "slow down" one side or advantage the other. Unless such a pattern is published and stuck to at least a month prior to the event, then there there is a problem in taking the entry fee of the bowlers that have been deliberately set out to be disadvantaged. Its like going to the US Open. That event has had the same pattern since 2003 (1:1 to 40 feet, no buff, taper etc) and the bowlers know what to expect and enter the event knowing they are going to be tested by the most brutal, unforgiving condition on tour. By doing this, any ethical dilemna in disadvantaging high rev swing shot players is taken care of because every player knows what they are going to get.
It may be that considerable prior notice of patterns, however inconvenient or logistically difficult, may become a necessity.

I Agree
How ever a 1:/1 ratio pattern is unethical IMHO
we are talking pure power player territory
the storkers end up fighting a reverse Block because
of the hole that is dug aroung 11 board

 

[The Devil's Advocate]

Hey Guys,
This is all good info and well worth the discussions taking place, as the more informed everyone is the less negatives arise, leaving only practical ways to improve each other. We need to start moving forward with the info, suggestions, and logics of what has been unearthed in the last few days and have some sort of plan for the next say 3, 6 or 12 months, as ultimately our aim is to increase tournament numbers, and clearly the issues are not so much prize fund, as this will benefit greatly from increased numbers, as it is the variety of shot making needed to encompass a wider number of bowlers, with appropriate lane conditions to facilitate this.....
Where do we go from here, whats the plan ? if we have more of the same then the same result will happen, dwindling numbers, lesser prize funds, ultimately decimation of a sport not so long ago we tried getting to the Olymics...So people in the seat who can make neccessary changes....where are we going.... what can we all do to help the situation.....do we need a new thread as a National summit on lane conditions versus getting more bowlers in tournaments, and then act from there or are we leaving it all as it is?

 

[akdefl]

Hey Guys,
This is all good info and well worth the discussions taking place, as the more informed everyone is the less negatives arise, leaving only practical ways to improve each other. We need to start moving forward with the info, suggestions, and logics of what has been unearthed in the last few days and have some sort of plan for the next say 3, 6 or 12 months, as ultimately our aim is to increase tournament numbers, and clearly the issues are not so much prize fund, as this will benefit greatly from increased numbers, as it is the variety of shot making needed to encompass a wider number of bowlers, with appropriate lane conditions to facilitate this.....
Where do we go from here, whats the plan ? if we have more of the same then the same result will happen, dwindling numbers, lesser prize funds, ultimately decimation of a sport not so long ago we tried getting to the Olymics...So people in the seat who can make neccessary changes....where are we going.... what can we all do to help the situation.....do we need a new thread as a National summit on lane conditions versus getting more bowlers in tournaments, and then act from there or are we leaving it all as it is?

All i can say to this is, be careful who you listen to then if you want to take that route. There are a lot of so called "experts" in this country on this topic.

Also, i am curious. What would make you turn up to a tournament more? (If someone wants to make it into poll, feel free)
A. The fairest possible lane conditions.
B. Every lane is oiled to each persons particular style. You don't move, you just stay on that lane for your 8 game block etc.
C. Cheaper entry fees and huge prizefunds.

I think i have a feeling where i know i would vote.

 

[The Devil's Advocate]

You are absolutely right in some respects, but you can listen to everyone who wants to add to this to get the feel, however to put your head in the sand and say all is ok is equally arrogant, the answer may not be clear right now, but sooner or later it will.
We all agree the numbers are dropping, we all agree we would like to see more people come to this sport on the elite tournament level, we all agree we would like to see greater prize funds, but we can't agree on how to get the sport there.
I have spoken to a hell of a lot of bowlers, who used to bowl tournaments at the upper level, the main reason they stopped entering was tournament conditions had the feeling of being "set up" for a selected few, the upper 10 or 12 bowlers we see in the magazine each month, it may not be true but I can see their point of view, everyone who knows other bowlers who used to bowl ask them why and lets put a poll or forum out there to get answers.
So what if we have a tournament where last place bowls a 190 ave and first bowled a 240, if everyone has a shot then surely the fun and excitement generated from that would persuade others to have a go, offering more money doesnt attract the lower end, besides the better bowlers would still be prominant, the difference being the lower end has had a good experience and will be more likely to return. I will start a poll / forum shortly once I work out which question(s) would give the information we could use....any suggestions???

 

[akdefl]

You are absolutely right in some respects, but you can listen to everyone who wants to add to this to get the feel, however to put your head in the sand and say all is ok is equally arrogant, the answer may not be clear right now,

Sorry, where did i say in my post that all is ok and my head is in the sand about the whole thing? I don't beleive that i even hinted along those lines.

But like it has been said before, there is only one way possible to get equallity in lane patterns so everyone has a shot. That is to convince everyone to bowl the same hand and the same release. There will never be equallity in any sport until everyone does the same things & uses the same equipment, which will never happen. Look at the CATS data from the WTBA one ball tournament. The bowler that won (Bob Learn Jr) won because he was the most consistant. Compare his data to the rest of the bowlers and you will see. The difference, everyone used the same equipment.

The only way i can see this going forward, is to have different oiling patterns for each and every tournament. make them completly different to each other. That would take care of your variety. Now comes the next problem, as soon as a particular type of bowlers sees that say pattern X will be used for the next event, he/she knows they don't have a shot, they won't turn up. How do you solve this, i don't know, maybe you pick the pattern that will be used out of a hat the first morning of qualifying, or have a multiple pattern format. But the way i see it is very simple. Rather than ***** and complain that you were shut out of a particular event because of the oiling pattern, learn to move, try different lines, hand releases etc, etc. You can still score a respectable score, even if the pattern doesn't suit you if you are good enough.

But the only way to encourge the bowlers to come to events is payouts vs entry fees. If there is a tournament that has a $200 entry with $10,000 first prize, 1 in 2 payout. i will almost guarantee you that bowlers would turn up in droves. But how do you get it to this point. i don't know, but there needs to be a massive attitude change in the industry for it to happen.

 

[jason_doust]

Rather than ***** and complain that you were shut out of a particular event because of the oiling pattern, learn to move, try different lines, hand releases etc, etc. You can still score a respectable score, even if the pattern doesn't suit you if you are good enough.

A bit hard when all the house shots are 10 board ditches. As for previous comments about right handers never playing the gutter, my favourite line is outside 5 with a couple of boards of belly. I grew up on it. If only anyone would put some oil out there these days without shutting the edge down. Call me old fashioned, but rolling out into the 4 pin doesn't count as an acceptable ball reaction in my book; and that's what happens when you play 5 or outside.

For those who want to try different lines, play your house ditch inside 20 and don't bounce off the dry. Better still, throw your plastic ball at the 6 pin for a half hour and really mess things up. That way you need greater accuracy and power - much better practice for tournaments.

 

[akdefl]

For those who want to try different lines, play your house ditch inside 20 and don't bounce off the dry. Better still, throw your plastic ball at the 6 pin for a half hour and really mess things up. That way you need greater accuracy and power - much better practice for tournaments.

Jason, good point. I made a similar point in another thread a while ago. Along the lines of if the house condition is too hard, find a shot on the lane that doesn't carry all that well, or that needs the accuracy(?) to score well, and keep playing until you do get better and more consistant at it. Its all too easy to turn up to league, complain that the pattern is too easy, but then shot the same line so the ego gets a boost when you average 225. I think it was Brian Voss or Norm Duke that said to do this years and years ago.

 

[The Devil's Advocate]

[Sorry, where did i say in my post that all is ok and my head is in the sand about the whole thing? I don't beleive that i even hinted along those lines.
But like it has been said before, there is only one way possible to get equallity in lane patterns so everyone has a shot. That is to convince everyone to bowl the same hand and the same release.]
Sorry Andrew that you took what I said literally against you, not you specifically as I was talking openly as if in a room, the head in the sand comment is directed at everyone who is laying patterns for tournaments, , making it so you have to bowl down a specific line, irrespective if you bowl that line or not, and whether you are seasoned bowlers or not.
your comments in regards to oiling patterns is exactly what is happening now, people are not turning up because of these oil patterns either creating single line shots or just too difficult, your comments of learning to move, different releases etc don't you think thats what we try right now, if that worked why are we discussing this, here is the problem with people thinking this is all we have to do, how ludicrous, even lefties have different lines, they don't all shoot the same and have the same break point - it is relatively simple - have a condition that "opens" up the lanes early so all types of techniques can score - bowling in a tournament and bowling on the same line for half an hour until it suits is ridiculous- its a tournament, you think we have the luxury of time or games enough to do this, we are moving every block, a block takes 20 mins or near enough.
So to get people back in to tournaments is to make the experience a good one, to get good experiences ( I have talked to heaps of bowlers to get the answers) is to have a wide variety of techniques on display and scoring early, getting rid of the frustration attitude, I suppose we can't put a finger on it but the gurus who can really set patterns can do this - otherwise with each tournament flyer have a clause stating the shot for this tournament is "5 board", those wishing to enter have a heads up on where to shoot.
In regards to the SA cup, how did you, Andrew Daley find the conditions?
Anyone want to lay down the QLD Hammer classic or the ATBSO Perth 2007 conditions, I hear those conditions suited all techniques and all scored well so why re-invent the wheel? Anyway I think we've killed this thread so we all remain friends and move on. Happy bowling
Regards

Paul

 

[Brenton_Davy]

Paul,
I have to say that your signature is an extremely relevant statement in reference to this debate.

"You must either modify your dreams or magnify your skills"

I agree that todays players are most unlikely to come back in droves to these types of patterns because they are too used to being able to play in their comfort zones and won't move too far away from them. The only hope is that the younger bowlers will embrace these patterns and philosophies and look to become sufficiently adaptable to be able to play all or most of them.

Under your suggestion, all golf courses would have 200 metre wide fairways and bowl shaped greens that guided the putts into the hole, no rough, no bunkers and perfect lies everywhere. All cricket pitches would play exactly the same giving batters the same conditions at every venue all over the world. All tennis courts would be the same so all players would only have to learn to play one way and there would be no clay dominant, grass doninant, hardcourt dominant players.

Bowling lacks credibility in the sporting world as it is because it is not seen as a sport that requires any great level of skill or athleticism. It is seen as giving its players too much assistance in order to master the scoring environment with oiling patterns, balls, pins that fall over too easy etc. Given that the bowling ball manufacturers have such a large stake in their technology, that only leaves the oiling patterns and the pins as a defence against the player and his/her advanced equipment.
Sports and tournament patterns are here to stay.


If this generation does not adapt, then the next one surely will, making us obsolete even quicker.

 

[strop]

I agree with what you say Brenton,

especially,

he only hope is that the younger bowlers will embrace these patterns and philosophies and look to become sufficiently adaptable to be able to play all or most of them.

Unfortunately, most of them can't be bothered these days.

They don't have the passion we use to have.............it's different these days.

And the older ones well it shouldn't be up to us to make up numbers..........

cheers

Tony

 

[The Devil's Advocate]

Brenton, you obviously haven't been following this discussion, you have placed posts and questions why the patterns buffed the lefties out etc. however right from the start I haven't said make it easier, read my posts and you will see, you can make it challenging without giving it on a plate. All I am saying and have posted links to websites that confirm this is, if you want tournaments to get the numbers and, in your words, gain creditability, you must facilitate for all bowlers, just like golf courses, you still have to hit a ball, but why shove lakes either side, sand bunkers in between and end up only having a 1 metre wide fairway to hit - sound silly yep and yet that was what the SA cup was like - the evidence was there - so lets open up the thinking and attract the 30% of the field that will take up mostly the the last half of the bowlers in our tournaments. I am all for trying to strive for tenpin creditability and it is our responsibility to try to look out for the interests of ALL bowlers not just ones who want to embrace these conditions - the dwindling numbers speaks for itself.

 

[Brenton_Davy]

Brenton, you obviously haven't been following this discussion, you have placed posts and questions why the patterns buffed the lefties out etc. however right from the start I haven't said make it easier, read my posts and you will see, you can make it challenging without giving it on a plate. All I am saying and have posted links to websites that confirm this is, if you want tournaments to get the numbers and, in your words, gain creditability, you must facilitate for all bowlers, just like golf courses, you still have to hit a ball, but why shove lakes either side, sand bunkers in between and end up only having a 1 metre wide fairway to hit - sound silly yep and yet that was what the SA cup was like - the evidence was there - so lets open up the thinking and attract the 30% of the field that will take up mostly the the last half of the bowlers in our tournaments. I am all for trying to strive for tenpin creditability and it is our responsibility to try to look out for the interests of ALL bowlers not just ones who want to embrace these conditions - the dwindling numbers speaks for itself.

You want a condition thats tough? Try the US Open 1:1 ratio across the entire lane for the entire travel of the machine. Have 2 boards to hit at 45 feet. Thats tough! What we bowled on at the SA Cup was a soda compared to that. So what if not everyone wants to embrace the type of conditions we had at SA Cup or at Sports Series tournaments? I realise that the tournament numbers will go down for a while, and maybe there will be fewer tournaments, but these elite events should attract elite players who want to test themselves on challenging patterns.

What I competed on and saw at the US Open in 2003 opened my eyes to what the game should be about. It should be tough at the elite level. Why do you think golf courses at major championships are made tougher? The fairways narrowed and the rough made longer? Because they are meant to be a test of the best. Not every golf course suits every player either, some favour faders, some drawers, some who punch it low and some who float it high. Tennis courts all favour different players, clay, hard, grass. Very few sports have environments that suit every player in that sport every time they go out and compete. The most successful ones are those who work to maximise their strengths and minimise their weaknesses.

Does Federer not go to the French Open because clay suits nadal more than it suits him? NO, he is determined that he will beat that surface. whether he does or not is immaterial. The fact is he works his butt off to try to make himself as good as possible on that surface.

I guess there is the rub. I realise that it is more difficult financially for us to practice on different conditions as the returns are no where near as great, but that is the decision you have to make for yourself. If you can't/won't make that commitment then you have to live with that decision. it is the same in all sports. Those that can/will make that commitment have a greater chance of success. I also realise that in many cases that seems very unfair that some are unable to make the commitment due to financial/personal pressures/reasons and I feel for them. Often sport at the elite level is unfair, and it has long been that way.

 

[wchester]

Nothing more needs to be said on this subject. Brenton has broken it down so that even the least talented bowler should understand. Champion bowlers are to be admired for their skills, not for their arsenal.

 

[strop]

Champion bowlers are to be admired for their skills, not for their arsenal.

Cool get rid of reactive then!!!

cheers

Tony