Its even tougher.

Right, so do any of the Tournament Committee frequent this forum? Im not trying to stir anything up im trying to understand why if the last 2 tournaments have caused so much heated discussion there hasnt been a 'meeting' of those who can actually affect a change?

All im reading is complaints that this one was too hard. Help an "Adult" understand please.

Not sure what your on about,

I don't think there has been any heated discussion at all, I think the bowlers knew what was going to happen the first 3 tournaments and that,s that.
Some of you are reading too much into this and getting too technical, a formula which majority of Seniors may not give a crap about.
let it go.......
 
Serious question.... Who decided the patterns?

David,

I don't know if you know or not. The 1st 3 Senior tournaments of the year are being used for the Senior World Championship Team selection to be held in Las Vegas in August this year prior to the Adult World Championships. It was only organized in September last year by the WTBA.
The top 4 bowlers with the best 2 results from the 1st 3 tournaments. Thats why they have harder than normal patterns at Caboolture, Keon Pk & Canberra next month. TBA i believe have decided that 3 WTBA patterns be laid for the tournaments.
 
Again as I said in my earlier post.........

There are only 3 senior events that are required to lay a WTBA pattern and they are the first 3 senior events of 2013 as they are our trails for the World Seniors team all other senior ranked events do not have to lay a WTBA pattern. It is only the open and youth event that are required to lay an approved WTBA pattern.


That means the Hammer, Australian Seniors Open and the Canberra Seniors
 
Rumor has it that Canberra may not be laying a WTBA pattern. i'd suggest that someone who is bowling call them and check on it.
 
That was being talked about yesterday. Was also mentioned that they may look at an alternative WTBA pattern better suited to the center to the original 1 that was decided on. Whether there is any truth to that who knows. Guess we'll find out when we turn up in Canberra.
 
HI Bowlers,

I wouldn't normally weigh in on these discussions but as we are the next tourny in Canberra I would like to show you all what I have found in my research leading into the CSC next month.
The following patterns that were used, Atlanta in Caboolture & Los Angeles in Keon Park I found some very interesting anomalies and like Kevin above I would appreciate some feedback from someone who bowled to see if what they experienced wasn't what they expected out of the pattern that was advertised. This JUST MIGHT be a problem with what is advertised on the websites only speculation but worth thought.

First Pattern: Los Angeles 36"_12 posted on total bowling pattern for Keon Park, this actually is what is on the WTBA website: this may have been the 2012 pattern hence the _12 but they say that there were no changes from the 2012 patterns to 2013.!!!
Second Pattern: Los Angeles 36 "again but as advertised in the Kegel Pattern Library on the Kegel website. The Difference ?? both patterns were horrifically flat but the later MAY have been what you experienced a ratio of
1 to 1.38 and not 1 to 2.14 as on the other pattern. I don't understand how they do show as different?? Shorter patterns don't always play easier as they can be be very heavy in volume of oil laid and very very flat pretty much gutter to gutter. I am certainly no technician but do have an idea on how to read oiling patterns it's not rocket science.

We will be making a final decision this week on the Canberra Seniors Cup pattern but in the meantime I would ask all of those who are in the squads for this event to Please definitely DO NOT PANIC. At this point go back and have a look at the pattern that was advertised on the CSC post and look at the shape of it compared to what you just experienced. London pattern was taken off the Kegel WTBA adverised patterns and has less oil and a much thinner Christmas tree or Top Hat shape than what is advertised on the WTBA website, yet they are both the same?

P.S I have bowled 7 games on it already at different times and experimenting for a couple of those games and have still managed a 196 ave. more than happy with that. and as the S.A boys know I have no revs on my shots...never have never will. sad but true.

Kind Regards,
Hollywood.
 

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and as the S.A boys know I have no revs on my shots...never have never will. sad but true.

I can vouch for that, although you have 2 more revs than I have........he!....he!
 
I would just like to add thank you for putting down the details for Canberra and glad you going with a shorter pattern. Kevin was correct about Keon Park there should have been a good outside shot with plenty of back end but you would have needed to bowl fast as these short patterns play that way - or massive forward roll or spinner shot.
Yes I think there is a Senior vs Adult culture starting because of the Senior success. Seniors are the future as we grow to be the biggest demographic in the game, probably world wide, that's why I mentioned golf. Very soon I would like to see Grand Senior and Senior events have distinct divisions because as Kevin mentioned you just can't bowl that hard and he is quite fit for his age.
I don't know why the ATBSO don't have a rankings of their own and points could be given from their monthly events which could give more entries and grow the ATBSO, the TBA still don't know where their National event will be and it's a requirement for the the rankings.
 
I am watsa name who bench warms. Just want to understand how Senior Tournament Bowlers can pay big money to average anything between 124 and 155. Jeanette Baker averaged only 180 in the 2 tournaments. What right has TBA to tell Centres what pattern they put down, who checks the pattern????.
 
Valid points Tony, I think I have alluded to something similar but in regards to juniors and the type of patterns they are playing on in some tournaments.

I guess the guys that bowl Seniors can look at it a few ways, never going to please every body, but personally, I would envisage easier conditions than general open adult tournaments should be the norm as things need to be taken into account.

These things include age (not being ageist), knowledge and ability.

Age comes down to those guys and girls getting on in years, who have spent years in the bowling game, when it comes to shorter patterns, or any pattern where speed makes a difference, why submit them to something like that. Knowledge, some people just like to bowl and not worry about the science, its fair enough, and ability, most of the guys that are leading the rankings have been doing it for years before and will probably do it for years to come, however, spare a thought for those guys that used to be in and around the bubble at tournaments on tougher conditions, they are now eligible for playing seniors on what they perceive to be slightly easier conditions, do you think that would influence their decision to enter? I reckon so.

It is almost the same as what I feel should be done for juniors, sure have the tougher sport patterns, but only to a degree. In my opinion, especially for juniors, there is no point dumping them into a tough as hell pattern (last years nationals come to mind) as most don't have the knowledge, training or experience to deal with it (same 3 reasons above). My belief is that if you want to look at the laying different patterns to see who can bowl and be successful bowling different areas of lane, by all means lay conditions that dictate a type of shot should be played, but back off the severity until they become accustomed and experience in it.
 
HI Bowlers,

I wouldn't normally weigh in on these discussions but as we are the next tourny in Canberra I would like to show you all what I have found in my research leading into the CSC next month.
The following patterns that were used, Atlanta in Caboolture & Los Angeles in Keon Park I found some very interesting anomalies and like Kevin above I would appreciate some feedback from someone who bowled to see if what they experienced wasn't what they expected out of the pattern that was advertised. This JUST MIGHT be a problem with what is advertised on the websites only speculation but worth thought.

First Pattern: Los Angeles 36"_12 posted on total bowling pattern for Keon Park, this actually is what is on the WTBA website: this may have been the 2012 pattern hence the _12 but they say that there were no changes from the 2012 patterns to 2013.!!!
Second Pattern: Los Angeles 36 "again but as advertised in the Kegel Pattern Library on the Kegel website. The Difference ?? both patterns were horrifically flat but the later MAY have been what you experienced a ratio of
1 to 1.38 and not 1 to 2.14 as on the other pattern. I don't understand how they do show as different?? Shorter patterns don't always play easier as they can be be very heavy in volume of oil laid and very very flat pretty much gutter to gutter. I am certainly no technician but do have an idea on how to read oiling patterns it's not rocket science.

We will be making a final decision this week on the Canberra Seniors Cup pattern but in the meantime I would ask all of those who are in the squads for this event to Please definitely DO NOT PANIC. At this point go back and have a look at the pattern that was advertised on the CSC post and look at the shape of it compared to what you just experienced. London pattern was taken off the Kegel WTBA adverised patterns and has less oil and a much thinner Christmas tree or Top Hat shape than what is advertised on the WTBA website, yet they are both the same?

P.S I have bowled 7 games on it already at different times and experimenting for a couple of those games and have still managed a 196 ave. more than happy with that. and as the S.A boys know I have no revs on my shots...never have never will. sad but true.

Kind Regards,
Hollywood.
What Type of oil will they be using, Brunswick or kegel ???? think that might make a difference ?????
 
I don't think there is an adults vs seniors mentality, I just think most "open" bowlers are just reading a lot of moaning about conditions and trying to understand best how to fix it (if indeed it should be fixed). By trying to exclude us from this forum it is the seniors who are creating the divide, not the open bowlers...-
 
If I can get a response from someone that Actually bowled on the condition at Keon Park on the weekend and has some knowledge of lane conditions, I would like to know if the condition that was given to us to bowl on was what was actual the advertised condition. I went to Keon Park with a rough plan as to what the line might be and the equipment that might work, this went out the window during practice. I expected that there would be a reasonable back end, but on the first ball just managed to hit the 6-10 pins. I tend to watch the bowlers that can carry and the only ones that did carry had a lot of ball speed which at 61 I'm sadly lacking as are a lot of others. I have bowled in the US and after seeing the proposed lane condition have worked out a plan of equipment and possible line that might work, in most cases I have been reasonably successful. In Aussie land we rely on the Centre Tech's to ensure the machines are serviced and laying the required pattern on the lanes, there is no check on the lanes to see if the pattern is as required.
I'm getting to old to get frustrated that I can't throw the ball hard enough to get a competitive score on what ever these conditions we have had to bowl on in the last two Senior tournaments and waste money travelling to each state. If it wasn't for the friendship from fellow bowlers I probably would have given up years ago. I just want a fair go for someone that has been bowling since I was 14 (49years) and was enjoying it.

I obviously didn't bowl, so perhaps this makes me one of those non seniors sticking his nose in, but one thing that I can think of that comes to mind, if the Los Angeles was laid down at Keon Park, and unless Keon Park has had new lanes put in, any kind of angle from inside to out would result in balls not reacting and hitting the 6-10 like you have mentioned. This is more than likely due to the actual lane surface being worn through the most common house shot track area, ie 10 and outside, so if the ratio is 1.38:1 (as I think I read earlier), then the pattern is going to play like a busted arse. Ideally the current lanes condition and topography should be taken into account when laying down a pattern, can't remember the pattern used at last years Open AO event, but it was quite clear from anyone I spoke to they trimmed the oil back on the outside to prevent this type of reaction.

Ideally any pattern that is relatively flat, short or long, shouldn't be laid on a surface that is worn, in particular on the outer region.

And Robbie also has a fair point, most bowlers this day and age, have however many balls, that tend to work well on the variations of house shots they encounter, when these WTBA or Sport type of patterns arise, there isn't really a lot of equipment that will work on them that fits into the normal house pattern range, especially on the shorter patterns.

Quite clearly a lot of seniors enjoy bowling their events, get great turnouts and like to support the tour. So perhaps, there just needs to be a bit of fine tuning for the tournament committees/technical committees, to recognise what type of patterns suit each particular house, they certainly don't have to be super ditches, but surely avoiding potential train wrecks is a worthy enough reason too you would think.
 
I am watsa name who bench warms. Just want to understand how Senior Tournament Bowlers can pay big money to average anything between 124 and 155. Jeanette Baker averaged only 180 in the 2 tournaments. What right has TBA to tell Centres what pattern they put down, who checks the pattern????.

I think you will find the technical committee appointed by the TBA send out a range of patterns for a centre to choose from, it is then the centres, choice from I think maybe 3 patterns and that is what they lay.

The TBA dictate that WTBA or similar patterns should be used, to match those that are faced by our national reps when travelling overseas to rep team events. Hence the reason I am guessing the first 3 patterns are WTBA patterns and are used to judge the best reps for the Seniors National Team and once chosen the patterns revert back to easier or more basic patterns. (basing my comments on previous posts here, so correct me if wrong).
 
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