How can they clean up Walter De Veer?

[Crawf]

That second group of people makes it a very frustrating situation. I know i would love to try out for De Veer if my average permitted, just to get a taste of what it feels like to represent your state.

But these people give the tournament a poor reputation, which it doesn't deserve. The saddest part, these people often wouldn't find their victory hollow, as they will do whatever it takes to win.

Sadly, Woza is right: the only way to never have any questions is to bowl with no handicaps. It is hard to imagine what strategy could be used otherwise to rectify the situation any further, other than leaving things as they are. I for one wish this tournament good luck for the future, as it really is a great concept.

 

[captain_economy]

Well I have definately started some conversation.

Good points raised and topic well defended by you all. I can understand that a lot of people don't have the time or money to dedicate to bowling and therefore this is a tournament for them. I understand that people enjoy bowling in it and it is a great way to meet new people. I then only have 1 question for you all...

What happens if you are a regular league bowler who averages more than the cut off average but aren't good enough for Rachuig? You miss out on representing your state even though you are better than those who do get to represent their state! If you were dying to represent your state then you might sandbag to do this.

And Spanner...I enjoyed working at the Nationals as i enjoy watching and working at tournaments they are good fun, i even went to watch the dunn shield in frankston (over an hour away from where i live) just to enjoy it and support my centre. I didn't bowl in any part of the nationals. I don't even bowl anymore.

I am a sportsman at a high grade of competition just below state level actually and there is one thing i know...representing you state is nobody's right. It is something that you must fight and strive to achieve. If you haven't got the time to devote you don't deserve the honour of wearing your states proud colours.

I don't know perhaps i am just a little too patriotic. But i am not sorry for that.

Captain
PS For the record the special olympics is great and sniffing my air conditioning has left me with cold nostrills

 

[The Spanner]

There are two types of bowlers that bowl in handicap tournaments like Walter De Veer
Those that use the tournament as a stepping stone to better themselves to go on and try Rachuig and other scratch tournaments for which it was originally intended. Whether they achieve these goals or not is irrelevant.

Then there are those that have improved themselves out of Walter De Veer contention but bowl "beneath" themselves to qualify for Walter De Veer or other handicap tournaments.

It is the second group of people that generate topics like this

Why would the second group of people generate a topic like this? This topic is aimed at fixing De Veer. I would imagine the Sandbaggers are very happy with the way it is.

 

[The Spanner]

Sadly, Woza is right: the only way to never have any questions is to bowl with no handicaps. It is hard to imagine what strategy could be used otherwise to rectify the situation any further, other than leaving things as they are. I for one wish this tournament good luck for the future, as it really is a great concept.

Even if the event is scratch, you still have the problem of the entering average. If the entering average was >169, and someone is averaging 199, they still have a 30 pin start and shouldn't be there for this tournament.

 

[Woza]

I hear what you are saying spanner

Yes the sandbaggers are most probably happy with the way it currently - Unless of course they get knocked by another sandbagger. That would be like ex smokers whinging about smokers but we wont go there.

In an ideal world with no sandbaggers and everyone bowling to their true ability - would there be any need to fix up De Veer.

Do you see a topic - Lets fix up Rachuig or any other scratch tournament for that manner

The Spanner wote:

Even if the event is scratch, you still have the problem of the entering average. If the entering average was >169, and someone is averaging 199, they still have a 30 pin start and shouldn't be there for this tournament.

As for averages if I was to bowl Rachuig off my 195 ave against a bowler with a 225 ave at a different Does that mean he has 30 pins head start?? and therefore should not be in the tournament.

I also post this variable into the already complex equation.

I currently bowl in the Latrobe Valley where the top ave is around 200 - mid 190's. My current league ave are 190 & 195 Where at a Melboune Centre like Forrest Hill with the same shot and ability I may be able to ave for arguments sake say ave 205-210. (that a possible 20 pin increase). Does this make me a sandbagger at my home centre?
In the same token we have had people bowl at our centre with a 210-220 ave in their home centre and be lucky to ave 180-190 at ours. (that a possible 40 pin decrease).
As far as a handicap tournament goes
Are you disadvantaged by bowling at an easier scoring centre - Yes Most probably
Are you advantaged by bowling at a harder scoring centre - Yes Most probably

The only true comparison of aves would be every centre in Australia to lay down the same condition on the same type of lanes. We all know the answer to this question

 

[Crawf]

I know i have been the victim of such a problem at the start of this year. I left Sale with a 155 average, and came to Melbourne, only to average 207 for my first 2 weeks of league.

Naturally, when i went to enter a handicap tournament that week, i put down the 155 as my only established average over enough games. Imagine the eyebrows raised when they rang up the centre i bowl at in Melbourne and found i was averaging 45 pins more than i wrote down!

It was really embarrassing, as they asumed i was trying to cheat the system or something! But it was the truth - moving from what at that stage was a very hard scoring centre in Sale, to a much easier centre in Melbourne, i was a totally different bowler.

So imagine if i was entered in De Veer with a yearbook average of around 150, only to average 190 - 200 on the easier lanes! I haven't sandbagged whatsoever, but i have a huge advantage bowling at such a hard centre! Had i been bowling at the easier centre, my yearbook average would have been more likely 170 - 180, which mine is now, to better indicate my ability on the similar lanes to what De Veer will be bowled on.

 

[The Spanner]

I hear a lot of what you are saying Woza ... and I agree with a lot of it.

There is a difference between Rachuig and De Veer ... that is why De Veer is a handicap tournament. If you were bowling Rachuig, you are bowling in a scratch tournament. Rachuig is the best of the best, and there is nothing wrong with that.

You have averages of 190 and 195 in the same centre. Do you feel like a sandbagger in the league you avg 190 in?
Why have 2 averages? .. What is the point of having 2 averages and thus, 2 handicaps? Conditions? .. garbage .. they don't give me 3 extra shots on my golf handicap if it's raining.

As I've mentioned before, the handicapping system needs a complete overhaul. I'd like to see handicaps as an indication of how you bowl 30% of the time, not 50%. Example .. I just finished the league I bowl in .. 37 weeks. My avg was 179. If I avg my best 24 weeks out of the 37 (roughly 2/3rds), my avg is 189. I think that's where my handicap should be, and it would level the playing field a little more.

Do we need to rate all of the centres in Australia? .. Give them an A for Easy and a E for hard ... then if you come from the "A" centres you get given more h'cap to compete in 'foreign turf' handicap events? If they are from the "E" centres, they get some handicap taken off, because they will be expected to score better on easier conditions? Is that an option?

There were two guys that stand out in my mind when I think of Handicaps and handicap tournaments. Neither of these two were in any way Sandbaggers.

One's avg was 141. He had 5% vision. He busted his gut for his state, as we all did.
The other's avg was about 120. He had some physical difficulties getting to the foul line, but gave his all.

I played the 120 avg twice, giving away 60 odd pins .. the result was 1 match each.

De Veer should be about playing on an even field against guys like this. What a perfect world it would be. It's just the sandbagger that needs to be flushed out ...

Do we deserve to represent our states? ... Why the hell not, if that is the competition we entered. The only other competition I can think of that has handicaps is golf, and although they don't have an interstate comp on handicap, I can go to plenty of events and test myself against others on a supposedly level playing field.

And .. I'm spent.

 

[Woza]

The spanner wrote

You have averages of 190 and 195 in the same centre. Do you feel like a sandbagger in the league you avg 190 in?
Why have 2 averages? .. What is the point of having 2 averages and thus, 2 handicaps? Conditions? .. garbage .. they don't give me 3 extra shots on my golf handicap if it's raining.

No I dont feel like a sandbagger - 190 ave bowled in four man teams at a set time set night every week. Generally conditions (and anyone who has bowled at Morwell can verify) can vary dramatically from week to week sometimes beneficial to my style/game sometimes detrimental.

195 ave bowled in a singles league where the official league time is 9.30 on a Monday morning (never ever bowled at that time as I work) but you have until 4:00pm that Thursday to bowl for that week (suits shiftworkers etc) therefore if I wanted I could pick my times as to when I know that the lanes will suit my style better but generally treat this league as practice and bowl at different times of the week and on different conditions so as to improve my game in general.

In saying that, Personally I often find that my singles league ave is nearly always higher than my team league ave by 5 - 10 pins.

Imagine if golf was like this - Comp on Saturday and it was raining or blowing a gale but they tell you you have until Thursday to put in your score - Would you play in the rain/wind or would you wait for a better day.
Do you as a golfer go out and practice in the rain/wind so as to improve your general game?
When you hand in your handicap cards do you play in all conditions so as to get a true handicap

I like your suggestion of the two thirds rule where you wipe out a percentage of the low games but maybe need to also wipe out a percentage of the high games to get a more median ave of the bowlers true ability thus making it alot harder for a sandbagger to "get through the system"
I think that this may be the only way to even out the playing field in any handicapped tournament

(Will need to do away with league secretary and get statiticians)

The two guys that you talked about in Walter De Veer are what it is all about. After all the games have been bowled, awards given these are the memories that you take away from the tournament and remember for many years to come.

 

[The Spanner]

Imagine if golf was like this - Comp on Saturday and it was raining or blowing a gale but they tell you you have until Thursday to put in your score - Would you play in the rain/wind or would you wait for a better day.
Do you as a golfer go out and practice in the rain/wind so as to improve your general game?
When you hand in your handicap cards do you play in all conditions so as to get a true handicap

To answer your questions ...

Golf is only played on the day, apart from a 9 hole chicken run (that would be like having a 5 frame game.) It's luck of the draw for conditions, it might rain for the morning field and then be fine in the afternoon.
Yes .. i have practiced in the wind and rain, but you don't get handicapped on practice games, only comp games.
And yes ... your true handicap reflects all conditions you choose to play in.

Handicaps for golf are not averages .. I play off 5, but I would be lucky to play to my handicap once every 5 or 6 games.

 

[grumpie]

Hi all,
I've been watching the posts on this topic with great interest,some posts are constructive and some are not worth looking at.
Now lets look at what Deveer was created for,this is how i see it and i'm sure there is plenty out there that will prove me wrong.
As far as i know Deveer was created by three men who loved the game of tenpin bowling(two of them Ruchuig bowlers the other just loved bowling and was on several comitees)and tried to have a tournament for A grade bowlers on the improve to maybe Ruchuig standard. To get to this standard there needed to be a tournament to chalenge bowlers so they could improve to Ruchuig. This did seem to work if you look at some of the bowlers that did come through Deveer. Some that i know of are Joel Lovegrove , Jenny Buckle and some more.
Now remember this was an A grade and below event, not B grade as it is now. So i feel that the first thing that has to happen is Deveer needs to be brought back to an A grade event.It also had a handicap of 80% of 200. Which in turn favours the higher end of the A grade cut. When it was at this level Deveer had a very big following as well.
The gradings changed at the Nationals in 2001 ( i think it was then) which changed from 180 to 184 for men in A grade. This put Deveer in the middle of A grade. So it had to be changed.
I also think that if Deveer went back to an A grade cut there would be a lot more people trying out to make the team.
It would be a shame to loose this tournament!!!!

In Victoria we use to have 3 Qualifying rounds for Deveer,the last round your average was changed to a more current one.
IE; Say last round was in June your End of May average was used. The other 2 rounds were Year book, this did make a big differance.

Nobody can lay blame to TBA for the lack of people trying out for Deveer,I'ts upto each State association and bowling centres to promote tournaments, without this there wouldn't be tournaments.

Sandbaggers are people that have no faith in there ability and fool themselves into thinking they are good bowlers with a lower average. The only one they fool is themselves nobody else.

To sum up
My thoughts are to get Deveer back upto where it was you need to bring it back up to A grade at leased and make sure it gets promoted in every State. Change the handicap to 80% of 200.

Our game has changed to the extreme in the last ten years with oiling ,types of lanes ,balls etc. So lets keep up with change not go backwards.

This is only my view and my mind is always open.
Lets get Deveer back to where it belongs, one of the best around with the biggest following every year.

Gunther Czmok

 

[Andrew S.]

Gunther you are quite right when you say the comp has to be promoted more. State Associations must do better, and I include our own here at TBAQ.
Having said that however, one of the main problems is that a lot of paperwork is binned as soon as it arrives at any given Bowl.
For one reason or another Centre Managers are not always willing to promote events held at other Centres.
The only apparent way round this is to make it financially advantageous to the Centre to help promote it.
In the early years of De Veer in Qld we had bowlers qualifying in league with the top qualifiers advancing to a State final roll-off.
It was $2 to qualify and we gave this money to the Centres as a small reward for selling the qualifying.
This was extremely successful, however we discontinued the exercise as it required a tremendous amount of work by an unpaid co-ordinator to organise this State-wide.
Personally I feel that the National Body must provide some form of brochure to all Centres explaining the different levels of bowling that are available to participants. A new league bowler has very little knowledge of the bigger picture as most Centres are content to put new bowlers into a league and leave it at that. This year at Forrest Hills we had league bowlers who had never been to a National Championship before. The one comment that came through from them was why didn't someone tell me about this before?
Sure it's our responsibility as Bowlers, Committee Members and State Management Boards to tell everyone about State and National events such as De Veer, but I do think the National Body could also help out a little here.

 

[grumpie]

Andrew,
I did say State associations & bowling centres.
I work in a bowling centre and promote any Tournament that i am aware of,wether it has benifit to the centre or not.
I also know what a lot of other centres do, what they don't relise is that all tournaments promote bowling, so in the long run they will get more linage, whilst they don't do that they only hurt there own pocket. Afterall isn't that what they are in busness for, to make money.
As for TBA helping, yes maybe they can help with maybe some promo fliers or something like that, who knows. I can't speek for them. But in someway don't they promote it by just saying they will hold the tournament and don't they staff the tournament. All i'm trying to say is that if everybody worked together it would all happen, and happen well.
Rather than just fault finding.

 

[The Spanner]

I've noticed some of the associations have De Veer comittees. This was brought up in the forum held before the tourney.

Might be worth a shot ...

Spanner

 

[grumpie]

Well I have also watched the discussion on this topic. My comment however is some what different. I would like to ask a question, however I know that the people I want to hear from will not reply but what the heck.

In 1996 I was diagnosed with cancer and amongst other negative things I was told that I should consider myself lucky if I will be able to more that 3 games a week because of the damage done to my right arm. Needless to say that I don't follow advice very well and went on to make WDV in 1996.

After this time I really worked on trying to get my average back to where it was before the cancer and have since improved another 20 pins. I know that over this period of time it doesn't seem to be much of an improvement to the average person but to me it's a big deal. I have worked with a couple of coaches over this period of time but I have not told either one of them about the limitations on my right arm as I wanted to be treated like everybody else. Actually this is the first time that I have made it public knowledge.

I quietly plod along trying to improve as much as possible and every time I improve I try to push myself further. I am very proud of what I have achieved and glad I don't pay too much attention to doctors.

My question is simple. To the bowlers who bowl below their capabilities (I prefer this term to "sandbaggers") - what makes you do it? What do you achieve by it? Is it because of low self esteem? If I had that attitude then I very much doubt if I could have gotten through my battle with cancer.

Liz Fabian-Czmok

 

[The Spanner]

Liz,

I hope you don't mind if I don't hold my breath until you get an answer?

Spanner.

 

[grumpie]

Spanner,

I knew there was a reason I liked you - it's your sarcastic sense of humour !! No I'm not expecting a reply but I would like to know if these people apply the same attitude to the rest of their life ?

Why would they bowl competition (being league) if they don't compete competitively?

Maybe the answer is at league level. Possibly the leagues need to have some sort of points system that discourages sandbagging. I know in our league if the individual bowls over their average in each game the can get bonus points for the team. I know of one particular bowler however that doesn't like this incentive and they think it's unfair. Need I say anymore there.............

Liz

 

[The Spanner]

Our singles league has a rule that any game 50 over avg gets a bonus point. They come in very handy at the end of the league.

Maybe they should cut it to one bonus for +25 and another for +50.

Spanner.

 

[grumpie]

Maybe it's not the tournament that needs looking at after all .
Maybe it's the scoring system leagues use that create handicap management(sandbagging).
Encourage people to bowl well in league by dangling a carrot and i'm sure that team mates will want the extra point rather than throw the game.
Gunther

 

[Sumo]

Spanner

Maybe your league should also consider minus one point for 50 pins below average (or 25 below ave). Perhaps that would stop the "sandbaggers" in their tracks?

One doubles league I bowl in has a drop rule in place. If your entering ave is 175, then the lowest your average can fall to in the season is 165. If your ave actually falls to 150, bad luck, you are still treated as a 165 ave for individual points and handicapping.

Sumo

 

[The Spanner]

Sumo ...

That is a GREAT idea.

Our league has just finished .. I'll be putting forward this motion before our next league starts.

Thanks

Peter.