How can they clean up Walter De Veer?

[Ice]

Yeah O.K I'll be sucked into this one last time spanner! If I didn't know better I'd think you were trying to make me mad! You know I bowl better mad! How much do Golf courses change, from day to day? I don't play golf, tried once couldn't stop laughing long enough to hit the ball so I am genuinely asking. Can they vary from one day to the next as much as a bowling lane, excepting of course weather? Once someone has mastered golf would they find certain course conditions suited them more than another golfer as much as you would in bowling? Are there not more variants in bowling, such as oiling patterns, the ball, your speed, your hook, revs, your knowledge of lines/angles, experience, physical condition and your mental game? In answer to your question in roll offs I bowled about a 150 average from memory, maybe less. I would say I haven't bowled more than a 160 average in any tournie ever, that would be rare and a good day. The last tournie I went in in Innisfail I came out with a bang the first 3 games and fell in a heap the last 4. I personally think 90% handicap would change things a lot, I really do believe it would make this a lot closer competition and may be enough to make those unhappy happy again. The answer to worrying bout high handicaps is bowl better,go scratch! It is always hard in handicap tournaments when you reach the somewhere in between handicap/scratch. My goal is to do Walter DeVeer next year and Rachuig the year after.

 

[The Spanner]

How much do Golf courses change, from day to day? I don't play golf, tried once couldn't stop laughing long enough to hit the ball so I am genuinely asking. Can they vary from one day to the next as much as a bowling lane, excepting of course weather? Once someone has mastered golf would they find certain course conditions suited them more than another golfer as much as you would in bowling? Are there not more variants in bowling, such as oiling patterns, the ball, your speed, your hook, revs, your knowledge of lines/angles, experience, physical condition and your mental game? .

Don't get me started on golf v bowling. There is no wind, rain, sleet, etc in a bowling alley. Bowling is more like tennis ... you know, it doesn't matter where in the world you go, the lanes are the same length, same width and they all have 10 pins. In golf - every hole in the world is different, and it plays different every day. Different grasses, sand and reading the grain on a green all increase difficulty of golf, not to mention different equipment (ok .. I mentioned it).

If I miss my line by 2 degrees bowling, I'll still hit the head pin ... might even strike, who knows ... at least I'll get another chance to spare. If I miss my shot by 2 degrees in golf, I'm hard up against a tree, chipping out sideways. Can't remember the last tree I saw on board 7.

No one in the world has ever 'mastered' golf. It's impossible. It's much easier to repeat a bowling action than it is to repeat a golf swing.

Anyway ... we got off topic there ... Sorry everyone.

Lets get back to saving De Veer and coming up with a decent, working handicap system.

 

[Ice]

Thanks spanner, When I bowl tomorrow I'll be picturing that tree on board 7, burst out laughing and throw a gutter ball! LOL!

 

[RobbieB]

Spanner:

If I miss my line by 2 degrees bowling, I'll still hit the head pin ... might even strike, who knows ... at least I'll get another chance to spare. If I miss my shot by 2 degrees in golf, I'm hard up against a tree, chipping out sideways. Can't remember the last tree I saw on board 7.

Funny man, must be talking about Caboolture. Two degrees is almost seven boards at the arrows. And on a 250m drive, it is less than 9 metres off centre. Lots of fairways more than 18 metres wide - likely even more than there are 13 board ditches in Australian centres.

No one in the world has ever 'mastered' golf. It's impossible. It's much easier to repeat a bowling action than it is to repeat a golf swing.

So, who has mastered bowling? Dont see too many 300 averages these days - or ever.

 

[The Spanner]

So, who has mastered bowling? Dont see too many 300 averages these days - or ever.

I never said anyone had. The statement was made that 'once you have mastered golf ' and my answer reflected that.

And I can't wait to get to Caboolture on Saturday. At least the only wind I'll have to put up with is from the air conditioner. Oh no .. it might dry the lanes up too much ...

I'd love to see outdoor bowling ... try keeping one low and straight into a 30 knot gale with a ball weighing bugger all, see the effect of the rain on the boards, have some sand fly in my face as I'm about to bowl, trying to avoid the water on board 16. And while we are there, why dont we have a downhill lane, an uphill lane and we'll put another few lanes on the side of a hill?

Now .. lets get back to the subject of fixing De Veer.

Spanner.

 

[RobbieB]

De Veer is a handicap tournament, and as such is not 'fixable' in terms of stopping sandbagging. A dedicated cheat will always find a way to cheat. Using the rollof scores will simply penalise the States that have more bowlers rolling off. SQ and NQ ladies didn't even need a rolloff (NQ did after getting additional entries after the first close) a rolloff, and I would hate to see the outcry if you made those bowlers rolloff for a handicap!
As Lana and others have noted, different centres = different handicaps. A tough home centre combined with forgiving conditions at the Nationals (which was apparently the case this year) can make an honest bowler look like a sandbagger.
To 'fix' WDV would require a huge change in how averages are calculated Oz-wide. You would need to take only the best 2/3 of a bowlers league games, to get rid of ones which had been deliberately thrown off, and maintain a full tournament database for every event. This in conjunction with a national rating for each participating centre, to set a house 'par' as in golf, so that bowlers from different centres would be adjusted according to where they bowled.
Problem is, there would be more complaints from this system than there are now from WDV, and it still would not stop someone deliberately establishing a WDV average over a year. It would make it much harder, though.
One thought: make it so every bowler must bowl a minimum number of games in WDV, and use the average that they bowl IN WDV ITSELF, recalculated after every game. Make for an interesting tourney, and would keep the managers on their toes! :twisted: :lol:

 

[The Spanner]

Some good ideas Rob ..

We talked about rating all of the centres on our team bus on the way to the airport. I think you would have to take the average of all the league bowlers there, and compare it to the 'national average'. It worked a little like this ....

If the national average was 150, and a bowler from a centre that averages 140 was competing, that bowler would have to add 10 to their average, thus giving them 10 less handicap.

This would still require the national database to be active. It would also have centres 'buying' good players to get their average up.

I like the idea of the average of the best 2/3 of someones games to be their average. That's a step in the right direction.

The idea of a rolling average was also put forward to the tournament director for the restricted masters in an e-mail from me after the nationals. However, it would be harder to work in De Veer. If someone rolls up to their first game and bowls a 220, are you going to put them off scratch? .. It might work after day 1 .. at least you would have 6 games to go by then.

Yes SQ didn't have roll offs .. we were an 'invitation only' :wink: side. However, we still had to bowl in the area championships and the state championships. None of those scores contributed to our 'averages', which is a real shame and something that needs to be looked at.

Spanner.

 

[Ice]

I like the idea of the average of the best 2/3 of someones games to be their average. That's a step in the right direction.

That is making the assumption that everyone who has a low game in league is guilty of sandbagging

 

[RobbieB]

No, it isn't. What it would do is lower everybodies handicap,but would affect those who deliberately throw really bad games more. The average cap would need to go up, as a 180 average bowler might now be rated off 190 or so. But the effect would (hopefully) be consistent across all 'honest' averages.
I believe (maybe spanner can confirm) that golf handicaps are calculated off only the best xxx cards? your handicap reflects what you will shoot on a good day. Maybe it's time to look at a system like this for bowling.

 

[The Spanner]

I think the Handicapping system for golf in the USA is like that ...

In AUS .. the more under your handicap you shoot, the more shots you lose. If you don't play to your handicap, you only get a minimal amout back.

i.e. If My handicap is 10, and I shoot 4 Over Par (6 Under my handicap) I'd lose 6 x 0.3 (1.8) shots off my handicap. If I don't shoot to my handicap, I only get 0.1 or 0.2 back, regardless of how many shots I'm over.

Some Social golf clubs discard your 6 worst and 2 best rounds, then average out the remaining 12 rounds out of your last 20.

But still ... al rounds of golf will affect your handicap in some way.

 

[eraser20]

Having just had a chance to read this topic, most of your ideas would not be a bad thing for WDV.

However, even if the average threshold is lifted we are still going to get that "sandbagging element". These same people have been or appear to have been doing the same thing for years, and not just in WDV but East Coast, or whatever.

Unfortunately its the honest bowlers who miss out, even after then make the team. Of course the "sandbaggers" are going to get more games, they have more potential to win with their "low" averages.

I've found it interesting that those who may be a bit under suspicion don't appear to have replied to this forum defending themselves, yet seem to post replies to other subjects. Are they feeling a bit guilty? Probably not!

 

[Ice]

Just wondering if there has been any more word on whether or not averages will be lifted for next year. Anybody heard anything or know when this issue might be looked at?

 

[captain_economy]

Why does this tournament exist? it is micky mouse to say the least! If you're not good enough to play scratch then you don't play at all! That's how it works in other sports. I bet there are many crickets in lower grades that would like to represent the Vics but can't because they aren't good enough, i don't see them in a special handicapped state side.

Why don't teams just submit a second side that plays against other second sides as a feeder for the main vic side. Like football you have your Seniors and Reserves. If you are good enough you get promotion and if not you don't and this way you still have at a possible 14 people each gender representing their state AND they deserve it

Harsh but fair

 

[Ice]

My mother taught me that if I can't say anything nice don't say anything at all! Biting my tongue, biting hard! It is attitudes like that make me want to continue to bowl Walter De Veer, I like bowling with people who's egos are in check! Sorry Mum!

 

[The Spanner]

Captain-Economy.

We are not all sponsored bowling addicts who bowl in 4 leagues a week and a different tournament every weekend. Thus, some of our bowling leaves a little to be desired. I'm sorry if I offended you by bowling at your centre in a tournament you didn't see worthy. I'm also sorry that by wearing my state colours that you might be offended because I didn't 'deserve' it.
And I'm sorry if I inconvenienced you at any time by having to get a pin re-spotted ... but then again, you were paid to be there I presume.

De Veer was originally put together as a stepping stone to Rachuig. While I don't think there have been too many to make that step, it does give people something to aspire to, while giving them a taste of interstate competition.

We play the sport for sports sake. You were there ... did you see any pushing, shoving or brawling during De Veer? I don't think so. Ten Pin Bowling, last time I checked, is a non-contact sport. I wasn't there for Rachuig ... but tell me ... who was having more fun? (Apologies to serious Rachuig bowlers inserted here).

This tournament exists for the good of the game. How many of these interstate people would have bothered to go to the nationals to compete in their respective grades if it was not for the De Veer competition? Not I.

I made a lot of new, good freinds in just about every state in Australia while I was there competing. Isn't that what sport is all about?

I don't think it made a huge difference to too many people who actually won the tournament (but congratulations to the winners). Most of us were there to have fun, and play (one of) the sport(s) we love, and we did.

Now, go and take a good, hard sniff at your air conditioner. Next you'll be having a go at the special olympics.

Spanner.

 

[pulse-tech]

i don't agree with the captian on this but i do belive that the
handicap system for de'veer needs to be looked into
possibly if you took out your five lowest series and your five highest series then averaged
just a sugestion :?

 

[Ice]

Also in response to Captain Econony's comments perhaps graded Championships should also be done away with, why don't all Rachuig bowlers bowl Open, no Classic, A Grade or B Grade bowling. What did you bowl in Captain Economy? Just curious. :lol:

 

[Felix]

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

It is a very difficult tranisition for many from De Veer to Rauchig. In the years to come I hope that I am able to make that transition. At present due to circumstances, I bowl because I enjoy the sport and cannot dedicate any more time due to committments I have to my young family. I endeavour to play with many of the scratch bowlers in some tournaments such as the Burdekin Open. I enjoy the competition and it also moves me out of my comfort zone and endeavours to push me to the next level.

I agree with Spanner I have made some great friends during Walter De Veer, friends that I will have for a lifetime. De Veer allows you to make these friends ~ do not get me wrong ~ competition was fierce but never at the expense of sportsmanship and concern for your own team members and those of other states.

Ice and I performed extremely well in the B Doubles at the National and so did many of my fellow Qld North team mates. I believe that some of them could have quite easily have been up there with the rauchig bowlers.

The sport itself can only be damaged by the elitism of Rauchig and the perception that De Veer is for the "gumby" bowlers or second rate. Please let us all develop and nurture tenpin as a sport and preserve these great competitions for the future

 

[granat]

Captain_economy

Me thinks you have been taking fishing lessons from Woza and you appear to have come across a "Hot Spot" :lol:

 

[Woza]

Since we are going fishing granat

I will throw my line in

There are two types of bowlers that bowl in handicap tournaments like Walter De Veer
Those that use the tournament as a stepping stone to better themselves to go on and try Rachuig and other scratch tournaments for which it was originally intended. Whether they achieve these goals or not is irrelevant.

Then there are those that have improved themselves out of Walter De Veer contention but bowl "beneath" themselves to qualify for Walter De Veer or other handicap tournaments.

It is the second group of people that generate topics like this

I think that Walter De Veer along with any tournament like it including Rachuig, President Shield, Country Cups etc are great for bowling in general.
These weekends whilst about bowling also generate friendships, sportsmanship rivarly which can last a lifetime which for anybody who has been away in any team event can relate to. To anybody who hasn't had the chance as yet you dont know what you are missing out on.

To eliminate sandbaggers - bowl scratch every pin counts sandbagging doesnt get you anywhere
Any handicap tournament will always attract suspicions about peoples aves etc.
The problem is for every genuine case of people using it as a stepping stone, giving them a taste of state competion, making them keen to aspire to higher levels there are people doing the exact opposite to stay in the game. It is these people who will never have a 'sweet' victory but always ponder the 'hollow' victory that he or she achieved