AO scoring pace - is this the answer?

[GeorgeF]

I've never been a fan on 3:1 patterns because I believe there is a better way of finding National players for representation (why the policy was introduced in the first place). Here are some interesting stats to cap off the year

SA Cup -

Top 10

Winner avg: 235avg
Score needed to make finals: 219avg

Style balance:

Lefty: 4
Right power: 4
Right stroker: 2

Canberra Open -

Top 10

Winner avg: 231avg
Score needed to make finals: 206avg (10th place)

Style balance:

Lefty: 3
Right power: 3
Right stroker: 4

Australian Open -

Top 10

Winner avg: 247avg
Score needed to make finals: 222avg

Style balance:

Lefty: 2
Right power: 4
Right stroker: 4


Scores at the Australian were the highest, 222vg to make the final 10 is huge. Take into account though the balance of styles and people who made the final and it indicates that the pattern was fair for everyone. Whilst the scores were high I believe this sets a good benchmark for fringe bowlers who want to participate in National events.

3:1 patterns were discouraging for a lot of people and the bowling community suffered with declined numbers. Maybe now if those bowlers return to the scene, average a lot higher than the 3:1 patterns of old they will be encouraged to bowl more.

At the end of the day no matter what is laid out the bowlers who bowled the best always come to the top. I think allowing bowlers to enter an event, have a 'SHOT' no matter what their style is what we need to do in the future to sustain tournament numbers. This seems to be the only way we can find a balance which allows all bowling styles to compete on a level playing field.

When I enter a tournament I want the best bowler to win, I want the playing field to be level and every person in the field have the opportunity to win. At the moment, the 'easier' patterns seems to be the only way to find that balance.

Whats your thoughts, was the AO too high? What is a good scoring pace? How do we find equity in our conditions?

 

[Easy Tiger]

Totally agree and I've said some of the above before.

As far as I am concerned, all this talk about lane conditions has gone on long enough. If you want to call it a carry contest, fine, but the mix as George said included an equal mix of all styles.. so high average or not, the "carry contest" part of it can't have been too high in the stakes of who made it and who didn't. That said, knowing how to carry better than anyone else is also a skill in its own right. Ball choices, speed, revs, angle, they all come into it.

Was this event actually bowled on a 3:1 pattern?? Is this policy still being enforced? Or has sanity prevailed and this policy dropped..

 

[Jase]

Depends on who you ask George…

Supposedly patterns have nothing to do with numbers being down…Found this on (ABW) Another Breakaway Website today and found it interesting that the Elite bowlers like yourself need to hold there hands, and look after them and hold there hands when out late at night when at these events…It’s the only way to boost numbers supposedly…

There is a thread on ABW (Another Bowling Website) regarding the 'Promotion of Tournaments'. I'm sure that 28% of you have read it and been following it.

In case you haven't, it's really about falling numbers at Tournaments, and how to get them back to the Heyday.

I consider myself now a 'fringe bowler'. I'd class Cam and Double_d and James in the same section (sorry if i've underestimated u guys). So ... we are the people that they should be targeting to get to travel to some of the tournaments.

I've now played the K&K twice, and the Townsville Open once. I preface this by saying that the Townsville people were very hospitable and it is very likely i will go and play that tournament again. Conditions there seemed to suit me ok too and if i'd played a touch better, making the cut wasn't out of the question....

Now ... when was the last time an 'elite' bowler said 'come away with us, we'll have a great time' ? It doesn't happen, and with one or two of the elite bowlers, you really wouldn't want it to. (This most certainly does not include the Lord Mayor).

So .. They want me to go to the National Tournament, hand over my $200 odd bucks entry fee (which props up the prize fund that i haven't got much chance of getting into anyway that ultimately pays for their trip to the tournament) and be subject to some snide remarks about my lack of ability, all while sitting in my corner, in my place, eating my lunch with the other fringe players. All this while I could be at home spending quality time with people who care about me. TOUGH CHOICE THERE LADS or to put it another way ... F**K THAT!!!

One elite bowler (no names) once said to me that it was funny **** that I didn't have any friends among the Elite Bowlers. I laughed my head off, but, gee ... he really went out of his way to promote that next National Tournament, didn't he.

Maybe the Elite bowlers need to "Adopt a Fringe Player". Maybe the fringe player will turn around and tell them to shove it. Maybe they wont. But they give me no reason to want to travel and prop up their prize fund.

Sorry for the rant ... I know it would get deleted on ABW (probably for being negative), so I post it here among friends.

Marto.

I think scores up are a good thing and yes the cream will always rise to the top but perhaps a little less friction on the lanes is always a good thing as well…
Was good to watch some high scoring match play matches on the weekend from a spectator’s point of view…

 

[FRANKIE FOUR FINGERS]

George & Tim,
I agree with what you have both stated.
Every sportsperson needs rewards, one way or another, to keep their drive and passion going.
By way of averaging higher can only boost the confidence of any individual participating.
To sustain tournament numbers, we need a greater participation of local bowlers, This can be achieve by a better and even scoring condition.
At the end of the day the sportsperson who is the most professional at their approach to the game, will be the ones who rise to the top as stated, be it by way of equipment, coaching, fitness or mental attitude, to name just a few.
No matter what the condition is, you will always have to work hard to finish where you do. THATS THE NATURE OF ANY SPORTS COMPETITION.

Cheers,
Frank Bell

 

[rychenroller]

Interesting post that...I was thinking about it a bit the other day while bowling in the AO, quite a few of the "elite" bowlers are aloof (diplomatic hat on). I understand this during matchplay and to a lesser extent, stage 2...they want to win the tournament, they have their game face on etc etc. During qualifying though, it wouldnt kill them to have a chat to the fringe players, make them feel a little bit more welcome, more at home. Lets face it, with rare exceptions, those best bowlers in the country are going to be there at stage 2, and very much more than likely, the matchplay. In these situations, to a fringe player, theres nothing more important than being accepted and recognized as a tournament bowler. It would take a little of the frustration away and that feeling of being out of your depth. Also it could get the fringe player back next time as well.

Having said all that, some of the top bowlers will go out of their way to have a chat and listen...promoting the sport of bowling and keeping people interested is very important and I think they realize this.

As for the scoring...great for the spectators but it doesnt really matter. Easy conditions or tough, the best (apart from the rare upset) will always win the tournaments. I'll bowl either way, 215 average to make the cut, or 200 average. The question is, what aspect of a tournament keeps people coming back?

 

[Resurrection]

Now just 1 thing here, I bowled in the Emerson Shield final last year at Werribee and I found the lane condition tough but fair and consistent. I don't think I heard 1 complainy about the condition and from what I can gather everyone enjoyed themselves. The average to make allstars in the male division was 206 with no.1 being 214 and only 8 bowlers throwing over the card. Granted there was no George or Jarrod,but we did have Loader, Ryan, Hayes and Porto bowling in it. I don't think high scoring is the answer but what I don believe is the answer is in the "Major" Tournaments to bowl on a tougher condition. But then again last year we had lower scores and everyone bitched and moaned so really you can't win either way.

Matthew Lambrick

 

[Cam S]

I remember reading the scores on the weekend and thinking a thread like this would come up.

I also thought if this is one of our countrys best events then we should see high scores like we saw on the weekend.

It will only ever be my dream to average 240+ in a tournament like George did on the weekend but as 190 average bowler i think i would enjoy going to one of these and averaging above 200 and not cutting more than averaging low 170s on a harder pattern and still missing out like i did in the one ranked tournament i bowled in.

You average over or around the card at my level and you are still goin to enjoy it.

If this is the kind of conditions at national ranked tournaments from now on, well the next one i can afford to bowl in I'm there.

 

[Jez]

It is surprising to hear the winner of the last three tournaments thinks the patterns are better and fair now j/k.....(for the records me and George are best mates)

But.....Jase hit the nail on the head..volume of oil is a concern....taking nothing away from G on the weekend it was the finest display of bowling i have ever seen and deserve to win the tournament....there is an issue with the friction on the lanes...and no matter what ppl say it gives the left an advantage as the lane does not break down to the extend that it does on the right....

As for the numbers in finals it is also important to consider the numbers in the event..Ratios...For Example....no good stating that 3 leftys made the finals if there was only 5 in the tournament it is all relative. Events such as SA when leftys ran 1,3,4 and i think 6th is always going to have ppl asking questions

I agree the 3:1 had to go as it was out dated and the higher scores are a good thing but every now and then be nice not to have stand left in every event from game 1.

 

[Feral]

Thanks for starting this thread George. For me it was an exciting weekend (for a pensioner!!) to view some magnificent scoring, both in the AO and the Vic150. If the scores had have been a lot lower, say 10 or so bowlers over the card, how boring!!!! For George to bowl the second highest 6 game total (1661) of ALL TIME anywhere in the WORLD was just fabulous. I didn't bowl it - a champion bowler did and it made me feel so proud for him.

Now I'm not quite a "fringe" bowler but I do occasionally go and enjoy having a go (as a local) just for the love of bowling. Only once have I averaged over the card in a tournament (see, I'm not quite a fringe bowler ) and boy was I happy. Didn't matter that I was closer to last than first.

Some of the posts to date are so spot on that notice should be taken of them. I'll select some:
Marto's quote:
I've now played the K&K twice, and the Townsville Open once. I preface this by saying that the Townsville people were very hospitable and it is very likely i will go and play that tournament again. Conditions there seemed to suit me ok too and if i'd played a touch better, making the cut wasn't out of the question....

Now ... when was the last time an 'elite' bowler said 'come away with us, we'll have a great time' ? It doesn't happen, and with one or two of the elite bowlers, you really wouldn't want it to. (This most certainly does not include the Lord Mayor).
So .. They want me to go to the National Tournament, hand over my $200 odd bucks entry fee (which props up the prize fund that i haven't got much chance of getting into anyway that ultimately pays for their trip to the tournament) and be subject to some snide remarks about my lack of ability, all while sitting in my corner, in my place, eating my lunch with the other fringe players. All this while I could be at home spending quality time with people who care about me. TOUGH CHOICE THERE LADS or to put it another way ... F**K THAT!!!

One elite bowler (no names) once said to me that it was funny **** that I didn't have any friends among the Elite Bowlers. I laughed my head off, but, gee ... he really went out of his way to promote that next National Tournament, didn't he.
Maybe the Elite bowlers need to "Adopt a Fringe Player". Maybe the fringe player will turn around and tell them to shove it. Maybe they wont. But they give me no reason to want to travel and prop up their prize fund.

My sentiments 100% Pete. Does anyone want to cop crap and still "donate" to the prizefund? There isn't a need to "adopt" a fringe bowler - just ACCEPT and APPRECIATE them (and say it to their face) for coming out for some fun/enjoyment and giving the "cream" bowlers a bit more $$$$ to play for.

To quote Frankie Four Fingers:

Every sportsperson needs rewards, one way or another, to keep their drive and passion going.
By way of averaging higher can only boost the confidence of any individual participating.
To sustain tournament numbers, we need a greater participation of local bowlers, This can be achieve by a better and even scoring condition.

Hey, this is spot too!! Is there a message evolving???

To quote Rhychroller:

Interesting post that...I was thinking about it a bit the other day while bowling in the AO, quite a few of the "elite" bowlers are aloof (diplomatic hat on). I understand this during matchplay and to a lesser extent, stage 2...they want to win the tournament, they have their game face on etc etc. During qualifying though, it wouldnt kill them to have a chat to the fringe players, make them feel a little bit more welcome, more at home. Lets face it, with rare exceptions, those best bowlers in the country are going to be there at stage 2, and very much more than likely, the matchplay. In these situations, to a fringe player, theres nothing more important than being accepted and recognized as a tournament bowler. It would take a little of the frustration away and that feeling of being out of your depth. Also it could get the fringe player back next time as well.

Having said all that, some of the top bowlers will go out of their way to have a chat and listen...promoting the sport of bowling and keeping people interested is very important and I think they realize this.

Here is a "fringe" bowler coming away from bowling in the AO "desperately" looking for ACCEPTANCE and just a little bit of RECOGNITION from some of the "elite". Not too much to ask really. Will he be bowling next year???? Or will the prizefund dip that little bit more???

To quote Ninja299:

You average over or around the card at my level and you are still goin to enjoy it.
If this is the kind of conditions at national ranked tournaments from now on, well the next one i can afford to bowl in I'm there.

Well said Cam - a lot of others feel the same way. It IS about ENJOYMENT/FUN. If you are accepted and at least chatted to during a block, it does make you feel good and you just MAYBE bowl in the next one, donating or not.

In the thread Are We Promoting Tournaments Properly? in this forum, I said this:

[B]How true is this!! Well said Jason.
A glance at the rankings, at every list, tends to suggest that those near the top cash at almost all tournaments. The cost to them over a period is therefore a lot less compared to some who battle with added expenses and time off work.

Does that suggest that ranking points are somewhat a factor of ability to compete financially? I am not suggesting that those in the top 10 or so don't deserve their ranking - what I am suggesting is that there are a lot of very good bowlers out there who can't afford to compete (time and cost) who would be right up near the top in the rankings if some incentive money was there to chase. If the top payouts were less than $2000, could those at the top continue to compete financially?

I think if the payouts went down further, more locals, at least, would have a crack. I don't think less would travel. To me that is good, as the rankings would reflect a broader competitor base.

Nonetheless, "elite" tournaments without a major influx of sponsor dollars will continue to struggle. They don't attract much new blood. There lies the answer in my opinion.

In saying this, the popularity of Mary Flower's Twin Tour (and the way things are going the TotalBowling Tour Circuit also) have little if anything to do with competitor costs, even though people travel long distances to compete. They pay well down into the numbers. They are very well run. Bowlers have fun. Average bowlers feel wanted and appreciated. Bowlers feel proud to be on the same lanes as the very best. There isn't that "elitism" atmosphere. If you want to get rid of the 180 - 200 bowler, just turn up your nose at them - they won't be bitten twice!!

Does that give you some idea of what you are looking for George? I do not regard you as an "elite" r sole, quite the opposite. You give freely of your time and knowledge to all who ask; you put on clinics at your own volition for all grades; and you are not alone around these parts. I have enjoyed bowling against you and a lot of other great bowlers up here. So not ALL "elite" bowlers are up themselves.
Give me a local major tournament with fair (even ditch) conditions where I can have fun, roll at least my average, and be respected as a competitor and I'll gladly "donate", just like most of the people who have posted here.

 

[Tiger Bottomley]

I must admit I am somewhere in the middle on this. I don't believe averaging 250 is great for the game but also can't see averaging 190 that good either.

My main reason for not being a fan of really high scores is it doesn't give anyone a chance to catch up. On the weekend if somebody started bad the event was basically over for them. No chance to work out carry or where to play etc. I like seeing the cut around 205 and the winner average 220 so at least if somebody bowls 270 or better then at least they make up more than 10 or 15 pins.

I thing though the most important thing is exactly what Jarrod said that it all comes back to ratio's. If you have 10 power players, 5 lefties and 40 straighter bowlers and have a cut of 4 power players, 3 lefties and 3 straighties, it just doesn't add up.

As for numbers I don't think the pattern makes one scrap of difference. If all bowlers feel they had their opportunity they will be back. If they don't feel the pattern was fair then they won't.

This is one of the main reasons I believe that all major events should be moved from centre to centre each year. That way even if somebody struggled the previous year they will be going to a different centre the next time and if somebody loves a centre they don't get the same advantage year after year. Two examples of this were at Bankstown when Lefties dominated and the top 3 in the NSW open and SPC were left for 3 straight years but righties won all 3 world cups and Alan Atkins winning 5 Koolfoams (or equivalent at Logan City in Brisbane. Alan was a wonderful bowler but I don't believe won any other majors but just loved Logan and the palce suited him perfectly.

So I would really like to see all big events changing centre's regularly. I know this can't be done with Melbourne Cup and alike where the owners operate the event but all AMF events could be done.

 

[Chowny]

AO scoring pace the answer... I think so

George it was a great victory and well done again.

You got game tiger and it just doesn’t get switched on during a tournament.

Week in week out the guy is averaging 230+ in more than one bowling alley, you only get back from the game what you put into it.

Obliviously it’s not just a once in a blue moon phenomenon,

If shooting 240+ to win is what it take’s, then that were the bar is set.

I have realistic goals when I put my shoes on to bowl a tournament and ive been pretty pleased with the results I’ve had to date.

 

[Gutter rat]

I dont think setting these patterns are a good way to boost numbers. I am an average bowler who on hard patterns has a better chance of cutting in comps due to my sparing ability.

When the top bowlers get the patterns like AO they strike like theres no tomorrow and the gap between the average bowler and them widens.

Sure its a good spectacle but bowlers like me who are making up the numbers need to think if its worth bothering to show up to fill their pockets.

Paul______

 

[rambo1]

Putting down a condition which is easy for all bowlers is a good
i feel the only way to make tournaments fairer is simply drop the carryover pinfall in the finals, have a cash prize for the top qualifier & then start from scratch
in matchplay simply have points for wins & draws(pinfall does not count)like the original SPC & extra bonus points for games in excess of 250 eg: for a 250+ 1 point, for a 280+ 2 points & for a 300
3 points
this is a more level playing field as anyone can beat any opponent in a game

 

[frosty]

in regards to the pattern set at the A.O. 3:1; 4:1; 5:1; or even 1:1 all players have to play on the conditions. i have always been taught that to be the best you have to learn to be adaptable to any lane condition placed before you. if you are unable to score on a pattern then you need to practice on a variety of patterns instead of playing on regular "house" conditions. as for my thoughts on the A.O. i played a much straighter shot (noticed that this has made me a statistic as being a straight player) this shot i controlled better i averaged 227 for the tounament.
as for being accepted as a fringe bowler, if your main concern for not bowling in tournaments is because you are not on the in crowd or not eccepted by an elite bowler then you are bowling for the wrong reasons. I LOVE THIS GAME. I LOVE THE CHALLENGES SET OUT WITH THIS GAME. who gives a toss if an elite bowler asked me how my day was as i am there to play the best games i can play.my reasons fro playing was that i have never played in the A.O. i enjoyed it and would do it again. as for the cost everyone has a budget if you are to commit to a tournament then you would be making sacrifices in your budget as i do.
just my thought on this.
as for the A.O. i feel pleased to have played on the same pattern that high scores were played on and to keep up. and also to have played against the best bowler in australia is an honour.
WELL DONE GEORGE ON YOUR WIN AND TO ALL PLAYERS HOW PLAYED IN THE A.O.
thanks
ashley

 

[rychenroller]

Well bowled on the weekend Ashley, also as I said in my post earlier...I will compete in any tournament just for the love of the game and competing against the best. Was talking to a guy I know who bowled in the AO (Graham Pearson) he just said he loved to bowl in this level of competition and was happy to average around the card. Some bowlers have this attititude, but some see it as a waste of $260 when deep down they have no chance of besting theelite. Wrong attitude or not, its exclusive of lane conditions anyway...the best in the country are still going to win, 99% of the time.

 

[Denver Sporting]

Sorry, but I am a traditionalist. I believe that the scoring pace at the AO does our sport no favours at all. A stark comparison over that same weekend was the US Masters at Augusta National where the winning score was 1 over par. The premium was on accuracy and course management which is what elite golf is supposed to be about. The analogy in bowling is the US Open which is played on a dead flat 1:1 condition that allows no more that 2 boards area AT THE BREAKPOINT and punishes those players who rely on power without accuracy.

There are those who would have been turned off by the Masters telecast by the scoring, but the reality is that on that given weekend a little known Iowa golfer named Zach Johnson plotted and strategised his way around the golf course and ultimately came out on top with accuracy and precision. Was it boring? Not to me it wasn't, but because he wasn't hitting the par 5's in two and plundering 320 yard drives, most paople would have.

Where is peoples desire to see skill triumph over adversity? The desire to see players being tested to their utmost? Have we been spoiled by inflated house scoring tot he point where everyone expects to score without the pre requisite practice and hard work? I fear that in todays "instant gratification" society, very few people want to work hard for a score.

That being said, I congratulate George on his performance at the AO. It is not his fault that conditions were set down that were high scoring. What was he supposed to do? Throw off? No, he played the pattern the best and came away with the spoils.

Incidentally if you look at the records over the last few years, I think you will find that since the introduction of the 3:1 lane conditioning policy, that our FIQ record and international results have improved markedly, so in effect, the policy HAS achieved what it set out to achieve.

 

[GeorgeF]

Incidentally if you look at the records over the last few years, I think you will find that since the introduction of the 3:1 lane conditioning policy, that our FIQ record and international results have improved markedly, so in effect, the policy HAS achieved what it set out to achieve.

I think our international success has more to do with identifying the bowlers skills and abilities and matching them to a known set of conditions. We already know what to expect at FIQ, TBA in recent years have put measures in place to ensure bowlers who represent their country can hit both conditions.

FIQ use to be an unknown, not anymore. We get short and long patterns, both patterns require 2 different disciplines, we know what bowlers to send. Plus we got Belmo, there is half of our International medals right there!

As for the AO, I agree the scores were a touch high but I honestly think there wasn't a bowler in the centre who felt shut out by the conditions. There was a great balance of styles and rotation, probably what I meant to say is that the condition was high scoring but fair for everyone (which is what we have always struggled with in Australia).

 

[Brunswick Tech]

It's a little outdated now.........but I think the graph tells the story.................

 

[Kedron]

, so in effect, the policy HAS achieved what it set out to achieve.

If you mean killing off entrys then you are corect

 

[philby]

If the powers that be were to put down a tough condition the squad numbers would plummet.

Nobody not even the fringe players want to leave a centre with there head between there legs after averageing 175. You can guareentee they wont be back next year. Yer the scores where high at AO, Vic 150 and for that matter Presidents shield. But so what. THe best still finisihed at the top. The fringe players finished where they would have finished regardless of the condition. The difference.

At least they could say they shot card at the AO. And when it comes to deciding next year if they are to bowl or not they will think back and say yer why not. I scored ok so Ill give it another go.

The last thing we need in our sport is watching the AO, Sth Pacific, or any other major and only have 40 enties.

I say bring it on make it easier. I dont know if people visit BowlingDigital.com and look at the scores regularly shot on the European tour. If you dont ave 225 you havent got a hope in hell. They get huge entries and it makes for a spectacular event.

We need to get maximum fields and when the day comes that we have sponsors knocking down our doors offering 6 figure sums to bowl for there company then yes make it hard. Because then you will have large fields of fully professional bowlers playing for $million plus paydays. (sorry i must have drifted of to sleep for that last bit and was dreaming lol)

But until then lets have large fields high scoring and the best still being the best as has been proven time and time again no matter what the pattern.
Phil