8pins start for women, did it work?

[Scotty R]

This is just nonsense. Once again what started as a positive thread about ppl's thoughts on the 8 pins and whether it was a success has turned into another argument. It is obvious the women need the start to compete on the same level as the blokes, not because they lack skill but because they do not possess the same physical power as the guys. I don't see AMP or Lexi putting the same amount of work on the ball as Michael Little or Sam Cooley. With all the variables in today's game having power in your game can be a big advantage in alot of tournaments, especially once the patterns break down and (as Michael has already covered) you have to move deeper in which case the power players can really open up an angle for themselves giving them area and with the revolutions and power their carry percentage wilol always be higher than the females. Not only that but they will have burnt up the area of the lane the females were using and they can only move so far in before they lose angle into the pocket without the revs and correct roll to carry consistantly. I'm not someone who believes it is the solution to all the problems on the ladies side but at least something is being tried.

It was also mentioned that the handicap would encourage laziness but I disagree. I believe the ladies will work harder as they know they have something to aid them and give them a real chance. I didn't get to compete in Queensland but having a look at the result it was still only a handful of ladies that made it through qualifying with the assistance which just proves the point about the gap physically between the men and women and why they need the assistance.

 

[androooo]

Anything that "potentially" allows for bigger fields and more prize money, I'm all for. It is sorely needed in this country.

I really don't see it as a big advantage. The girls may have a slight advantage on a few of the patterns where they can project it up the lane more than the guys, and keep it in play, but then as the shot moves inside, the carry percentage is going to go the way of the guys. The girls are going to go 9/ X 9/ 9/ X, where the guys are likely to go X X 52 X 63.

Just my view (retired tournament number maker-upper)

 

[bluey]

Mick I don't feel that at any time I have been aggressive toward anyone, people can calmly read my posts as they are intended or can jump up and down and let their own anger come out. A topic was raised and I commented my thoughts, nothing more nothing less. I've not suggested meeting face to face but will happily talk with anyone that wants to, as I've also said, I'm a big fan of women bowling against the men and after doing so at many tournaments I see they don't need handicap. I'm only saying that the girls are good enough off their own merit, I know damn well that on a lot of conditions their accuracy and repetitious shot making puts them ahead of many. This is why I don't think it's right.

 

[bluey]

I certainly think so with 4 women making the top 15 at the Kegel Open last weekend. All the women bowled great and I really think this is a great way for our bowling tournaments to move forward in the future. I know the women were over the moon with competing for more prizemoney, certainly a win win if you ask me

Thoughts?

George asks for "thoughts", he doesnt ask for positive or negative. The discussion for me is just that, no argument or rage. Maybe others need to control themselves and discuss the issue without their own emotions getting in the way. When I see Bec on Thursday league I'm not about to ignore her (as many of you would do to me) or run up and abuse her for voicing her opinion, mature people can talk about a subject and disagree without yelling and screaming or resorting to derogatory remarks about age. Well at least I can anyway.

 

[RobbieB]

I think this needs to be looked at from a more holistic point than simply whether it is 'fair' or not. There is IMHO currently a much larger disparity in ability between the top say 25-30% of women tournament bowlers and the rest of the girls than there is within the male cohort, plus the modern conditions do aid the more powerful shots a lot of the time. Women entering open tournaments do not usually end up with an equitable share of the tournament prize funds, but the lack of numbers in recent times makes it difficult to justify a womens only division, and then the guys complain because they are 'propping up' the womens prize fund. If this works, and helps to restore some depth into the womens tournament bowling ranks, that will be fantastic for Australian bowling as a whole, and i think TBA deserve a pat on the back for giving it a go and should really commit to this for a longer trial than one year.

 

[bluey]

1/3rd of the women that entered made the first cut with only one getting there with handicap. Of that 1/3rd, 100% of them made it into the 3rd stage scratch. 2/3rd of that group then made it to the finals.
Scotty I'm not sure why you say that the women obviously need a start to compete with the men. Notable that AMP, Jacinta and Nat didn't have their best day and missed the cut, if those 3 had made it then that would mean that 50% of the women entered will have made the cut. I have received PMs from lower ave women that think it's a joke and they disagree with getting the 8 pins. Higher ave women have openly said to me they think it's wrong but will take them if it's there.

 

[Docta]

Thats exactly right Bluey. We are giving the handicap to the wrong people, they know, it but want say anything publicly. They just take their 8 pins and laugh all the way and that is what pisses me off. Scotty R said "I don't see AMP or Lexi putting the same amount of work on the ball as Michael Little or Sam Cooley". well buddy the same can be said for a lot of the guys....so do we give them the 8 pins? NO, so were is the fairness in that. This rule is saying women are just not as capable as men thus they need the advantage and this is not entirely true. This rule is nonsense and is just a bandaid solution. The problem is there are not enough women/men bowling tournaments. This is what the TBA should be focusing on, fixing the real problem.

 

[jimcross]

Bluey said "I have received PMs from lower ave women that think it's a joke and they disagree with getting the 8 pins. Higher ave women have openly said to me they think it's wrong but will take them if it's there."


That rings true and realistic to me. I remember in an earlier thread on this subject, I said something to the effect that I would be surprised, if this actually came in, if some of the women didn't feel like accepting the 8 pins, would they be able to refuse them?
It's like having a quota system. It has a patronising flavour to it.

Way back in the 60s, I employed women in technical positions in a particular industry, where no women had EVER been employed before, and that was worldwide. What I did was simple in the extreme. I merely advertised the positions as being open to all, and assessed job applicants purely on merit, and aptitude. Just under 50% were women. People, try not to underestimate women, or patronise them.

 

[Bowler]

Gunna keep this short cos I could go on all day but here it is.

Personally I hate the 8 pin rule. And will NEVER bowl in any event with this rule in place. I don't agree its the answer and as far as I can see this didn't get any more women bowling in this event either? Maybe in the future it would I don't disagree with that.

 

[Drumo]

If an 8 pin start for the ladies is going to increase entries into tournaments then I think it's a great innovation... But if this attempt at increasing tournament numbers fails what will be their fall back position? As Lexi stated, it needs a few years to gauge if this concept will work.
Just out of interest, how many tournaments this year are affected by the 8 pin addition to the ladies?

This is off topic but one of the biggest reasons i see for declining numbers is cost... Not the cost of bowling the tournament but the ancillary costs which really can add up.

 

[gwhiting]

If an 8 pin start for the ladies is going to increase entries into tournaments then I think it's a great innovation... But if this attempt at increasing tournament numbers fails what will be their fall back position? As Lexi stated, it needs a few years to gauge if this concept will work.
Just out of interest, how many tournaments this year are affected by the 8 pin addition to the ladies?

This is off topic but one of the biggest reasons i see for declining numbers is cost... Not the cost of bowling the tournament but the ancillary costs which really can add up.

The 8 pins is only for the ranked events that doesn't have a womens division. The women only have 4 ranked events plus masters. Some females haven't bowled in a ranked event since the maters whereas the men have had three events.

Like most new ideas it needs time to see if its going to be successful. It appears that this has been successful overseas so TBA is trying it here.

 

[ratty133]

Very good thread, and after having read all the way through it, it seems like an interesting "discussion".

Mary did tell me on the weekend (as others have already stated), that the 8 pins didnt change the number of female entries from last year (but when a tournament sells out completely every year is that really a huge factor?) As some guys have said, the 8 pins can be a detriment to those "fringe" bowlers who may miss their spot in a cut if the tournament is played as scratch.

Just one comment to make lay the pattern corrctly and let us play .No need to modify any pattern the cream will always rise to the top

I 100% agree with Mike here. This whole argument of "topography" is junk. Yes, topography does affect how lane conditions play, BUT DO NOT ALTER THE PATTERN TO SUIT THE TOPOGRAPHY!!!!!!!!! LET THE TOPOGRAPHY OF THE CENTRE CHANGE THE PATTERN!!!!!!!! Women should get either the 8 pins start, OR (NOT AND) have the pattern adjusted to help them a little bit. We all know that most women don't have the ability to create the power that men do, and thus (generally speaking of course), cannot open the lanes up to the degree the men can. If you keep helping the women out by giving them pins, and adjusting patterns, you may gain a couple of more female entries, but you WILL lose a hell of a lot more male bowlers that make up your field.

 

[ratty133]

The 8 pins is only for the ranked events that doesn't have a womens division. The women only have 4 ranked events plus masters. Some females haven't bowled in a ranked event since the maters whereas the men have had three events.

Like most new ideas it needs time to see if its going to be successful. It appears that this has been successful overseas so TBA is trying it here.

Not true glen. The women can compete in open events at their choosing. Joondalup cup had the 8 pins per game, and how many of the ladies in the east opted to bowl that? I think there was 1 from memory. The women actually have 12 events they CAN compete in throughout the year, where the men only have 8............its just up to the ladies if they choose to compete or not..........

 

[ratty133]

For example if Belmo or Sam or Mick didnt train as much as they did, they would be nowhere near where they are today.

Are you actually suggesting that mick trains?

 

[ratty133]

My last post on this thread

How do you determine a low average male bowler or even female for that matter. At their home centre they could average 200+ due to an easy house shot but then come to a tournament and be lucky to average 170....

Are you suggesting women can't do the same?

 

[gwhiting]

Not true glen. The women can compete in open events at their choosing. Joondalup cup had the 8 pins per game, and how many of the ladies in the east opted to bowl that? I think there was 1 from memory. The women actually have 12 events they CAN compete in throughout the year, where the men only have 8............its just up to the ladies if they choose to compete or not..........

Not true glen. The women can compete in open events at their choosing. Joondalup cup had the 8 pins per game, and how many of the ladies in the east opted to bowl that? I think there was 1 from memory. The women actually have 12 events they CAN compete in throughout the year, where the men only have 8............its just up to the ladies if they choose to compete or not..........

I think you have misunderstood me Matt. The female bowlers can only bowl 4 events that goes towards the female rankings. Any open events that they bowl goes towards the open rankings. This means that a female could win the open ranking.

 

[CHIN]

The problem is there are not enough women/men bowling tournaments. This is what the TBA should be focusing on, fixing the real problem.

And how will adding more tournaments fix the problem. Most ranked tournaments struggle to attract 70-80 male bowlers now. (unless your in Queensland). Fringe bowlers that fork out $500-$1,000 a tournament to bowl and not cash now aren't going to outlay another $4,000 - $5,000 a year to support another 1/2 dozen tournaments just to line the same 10-20% bowlers pockets.

 

[andrewbc]

Small Note. Heard a few comment about they are willing to bowl in the ladies event if they are allowed to have a -8 bonus pins. Ladies would still be getting their bonus pins

Would allow for more entries in those events.

 

[becka_girl]

Are you suggesting women can't do the same?

What i meant by this Matt, the argument is why are the females the only ones to get the eight pins, what about the average male who isnt up there on the winners board hence why i said how can you determine the average.. No matter what average the female has they are still going to get the eight pins.

 

[Mistagear]

I think it would be fair to say the majority of bowlers in tournaments are NOT the power shot bowlers. The majority of the fields are made up of players with similar shots as the woman bowlers that this rule is looking to attract.
Therefore you are giving one group of similar type bowlers an advantage based on gender and disadvantaging the other gender.
Now, the group you are disadvantaging are the same group who supply the bulk of the prize-fund, if I were ranked in the top 10% of the field who regularly cash in events, I would be concerned, not about being beaten, but because the golden goose who supplies the cash you regularly take home, might decide to not enter the tournaments.

Well, thats no problem because the woman bowlers will replace them, but wait a second, the woman bowlers you hope to attract already have shown to be light in numbers. Could be a problem..

You know what, I dont give a rats, thats not what everyone should be concerned about, it should be totally whether any player is disadvantaged by this.... and nobody here can suggest that some people will not be disadvantaged by this.

Some bowlers (majority)will be disadvantaged and that should not be allowed to happen.
How can all the people here think it's ok ?