8pins start for women, did it work?

[Roysa]

As for dropping the 8 pins come Matchplay.... whats the point of keeping it if 2 women play each other?

 

[androooo]

You should be a poet...

 

[dishman]

A female bowling shot is a beautiful thing. In many ways, it is so simplistic, technical, streamlined and flawless. The variables that the power shot is susceptible to simply don't exist.

I disagree that a female can't, or is less likely to impart the correct roll on a bowling ball - you either can or you can't. The only variable here is how many times this can be done consistently. And the physiology side of things is cancelled out in a way because of the simplicity involved in the female shot. Using the most compact and streamlined delivery process means (generally speaking) the female has less impact to muscle use and spends less energy delivering the ball - thus lasting as long as the stronger male contingent.

I will also put a different spin on lanes opening up and essentially making it tougher for the female to carry (it seems based on lack of strength or inability to get the ball down lane far enough). The longer the female competes with the male contingent, the female will get used to it and will learn to read lanes better and make certain adjustments to combat the fast movement of oil to increase carry percentage (either through different equipment, hand positioning or release, etc). Slowly but surely, this will bring the female closer to the scoring ability of the male.

That will then eliminate the need for the 8 pin head start based solely on 'giving the female bowler a better chance against the males'. I believe the female bowler can match it without the 'handicap', and its only due to not frequently bowling with the male contingent that this is not reflected in results to date. After all, you can only improve in a certain situation the more you come up against it.

What would the 8 pins head start then be achieving? If it's purely to get tournament numbers up, I don't think it will work. I'm not sure what the answer is. Participation is fast declining in Australia - membership numbers are substantially larger in the US, Europe and Asia - and you can't attribute that solely to other countries giving the female contingent a head start. With the money they generate, they can have the correct people in the correct places and can employ coaches, etc etc. For these reasons, I don't think you can compare Australia to the rest of the world.

We have much bigger problems at hand and it all starts at the top.

JMHO.

Hi Michael
I use to have fairly "female" shot. Up the the boards with average rotation. It worked great on the fresh oil. The problems came later in qualifying sessions with adjustments. As the lanes dried up, any move left was into an area that had already been trashed by the power players. When playing deeper, the entry angle just wasn't enough to kick out the 10 tenpin consistently.
BTW, I'm hoping to play more tourneys this year and don't havea problem with the 8 pin start for the females. Something has to change so why not give it a chance.

 

[Docta]

I may be acused of being a shit stirrer and i admit that in some of my pass post i may have gone a little too far, but it is so good to see people getting involved in active discussion/argument because for this ideas are generated for bettering the sport.

 

[Mistagear]

There is a link on the TBA site under "Play By The Rules"

Play by the Rules is now a unique collaboration between the Australian Sports Commission, Australian Human Rights Commission, all state and territory departments of sport and recreation, all state and territory anti-discrimination and human rights agencies, the NSW Commission for Children and Young People and the Australian and New Zealand Sports Law Association (ANZSLA). These partners promote Play by the Rules through their networks, along with their own child safety, anti-discrimination and inclusion programs.

I copied this from the site

Although people like to think of sport as being fair and open to all, sometimes individuals or groups are excluded or prevented from participating equally. If the unfair treatment is based on gender, then it could be sex discrimination.
INFORMATION TO HELP YOU UNDERSTAND THE ISSUE

Click here to go to the Sex Discrimination Interactive Scenario.

• Sex discrimination can happen to both men and women, although it is more likely to occur against women.​
• Although women make up more than 50% of the population, they are not equally represented in leadership and decision making positions. It is estimated that women fill less than one third of key decision making positions nationally.​
• Offering women different terms and conditions of membership, limiting access to facilities, reducing training/competition opportunities and assuming individuals or groups won’t be interested in or good at certain tasks because of their gender are all examples of sex discrimination.​
• Discrimination can affect an individual’s health, confidence, self esteem and performance and may result in them leaving the sport.​
• Clubs that allow sex discrimination risk losing members and volunteers, and having reduced income. They also face the prospect of legal liability and associated financial costs.​

THE LAW

Treating someone less favourably on the basis of gender is against the law.
Clubs are required to take steps to prevent discrimination – if they fail to do so, they may be legally responsible for the behaviour

I suspect it will only take a single person to challenge the 8pin rule for females, and it will be stopped immediately.
The interesting part for me was . " Treating someone less favourably on the basis of gender is against the law. " & " They also face the prospect of legal liability and associated financial costs."

 

[BigDaz]

Women arent being treated "less favorably" as a gender though. It would of been because of their bowling ability as women. I dont think the motion was "Hey guys, we should give women in Nationally ranked events an 8 pin start coz they are women and therefore inferior to males."

If i raced 3 cats and 3 monkeys and the monkeys were slower 95% of the time i'd be more inclined to give them a head start as a group, even thou monkey 2 (Lucy) can sometimes keep up with the fellas. i mean cats.

Well enjoy that rabble, im not even sure i know what it means .......

 

[Dougy]

There is a link on the TBA site under "Play By The Rules"

Play by the Rules is now a unique collaboration between the Australian Sports Commission, Australian Human Rights Commission, all state and territory departments of sport and recreation, all state and territory anti-discrimination and human rights agencies, the NSW Commission for Children and Young People and the Australian and New Zealand Sports Law Association (ANZSLA). These partners promote Play by the Rules

through their networks, along with their own child safety, anti-discrimination and inclusion programs.

I copied this from the site

Although people like to think of sport as being fair and open to all, sometimes individuals or groups are excluded or prevented from participating equally. If the unfair treatment is based on gender, then it could be sex discrimination.
INFORMATION TO HELP YOU UNDERSTAND THE ISSUE

Click here to go to the Sex Discrimination Interactive Scenario.

• Sex discrimination can happen to both men and women, although it is more likely to occur against women.​
• Although women make up more than 50% of the population, they are not equally represented in leadership and decision making positions. It is estimated that women fill less than one third of key decision making positions nationally.​
• Offering women different terms and conditions of membership, limiting access to facilities, reducing training/competition opportunities and assuming individuals or groups won’t be interested in or good at certain tasks because of their gender are all examples of sex discrimination.​
• Discrimination can affect an individual’s health, confidence, self esteem and performance and may result in them leaving the sport.​
• Clubs that allow sex discrimination risk losing members and volunteers, and having reduced income. They also face the prospect of legal liability and associated financial costs.​

THE LAW

Treating someone less favourably on the basis of gender is against the law.
Clubs are required to take steps to prevent discrimination – if they fail to do so, they may be legally responsible for the behaviour

I suspect it will only take a single person to challenge the 8pin rule for females, and it will be stopped immediately.
The interesting part for me was . " Treating someone less favourably on the basis of gender is against the law. " & " They also face the prospect of legal liability and associated financial costs."

Same as TBA rule 501

 

[jimcross]

Having read and really considered every opinion and proposition on all these nine pages, I had decided, in absolute finality from me, to say that I believe that this is a bad idea.

I've changed my mind however.

It doesn't merit a word as far up the scale, as " bad." The very best it deserves is "silly.'

 

[CHIN]

I may be acused of being a shit stirrer and i admit that in some of my pass post i may have gone a little too far, but it is so good to see people getting involved in active discussion/argument because for this ideas are generated for bettering the sport.

Im sure if you were going to be accused of that. It would have happened well before now.

 

[CHIN]

The originally thread was started to voice if we all thought the eight pins was working so me being a female who is entitled to the eight pins just gave my general opinion, but apparently that was the wrong thing to do because no one agreed anyways.

.

Looks like we are living in 3rd world middle eastern country Bec where women aren't allowed to have opinions.

 

[gwhiting]

I would like to add another view on why I believe that the TBA has brought this ruling in.
The ladies are currently only bowlling in 4 ranked events plus the Australian Masters. Having so few tournaments is not a great preparation for the bowlers who are selected to bowl for Australia overseas. Encouraging the ladies to bowl in the Open events fills the void of not having many ladies events What better way to make the ladies better bowlers than having a competive match against the top men bowlers. I also believe that the top men also benefit by having to fight for a win against one of the top female bowlers.

I don't beieve that the majority of bowlers have any idea on how hard it is to bowl oversesa against other counries. The team that just returned from the commonwealth games achieved great results. They had to complete against coutries like Singapore, Malaysia and England. To finish the leading country against this type of competition was credit to the bowlers and coaching staff.

Getting great results overseas then helps with funding and advertising for the sport of tenpin bowling.

So in a nutshell I believe that this decision by TBA can only help the sport as a whole.

 

[Drumo]

The originally thread was started to voice if we all thought the eight pins was working so me being a female who is entitled to the eight pins just gave my general opinion, but apparently that was the wrong thing to do because no one agreed anyways.

It would appear Bec that you are entitled to an opinion but it can't be different... So much for freedom of speech and thought.

 

[Drumo]

So in a nutshell I believe that this decision by TBA can only help the sport as a whole.

I think their decision (T.B.A's) is a move to increase numbers (as we already know) but Isn't it better to try something than to leave things as they were and let the sport deteriorate to the point of no return?

It seems that T.B.A can't take a trick... Do nothing and get ridiculed or do something ( as they did) and get ridiculed... If anyone has any ideas on how to promote the sport or even have ideas on how to increase participation numbers in tournaments then instead of complaining about what's being done how about making a suggestion to the T.B.A. They ARE accessible via email last time I checked...

 

[magpi17]

To put it simple, if we sit back and do nothing about nothing then we will end up with nothing!!!!!!!
Tenpin must progress in this country and anything that might help it is worth a go.
My opinion on the 8 pins, coming from a guy that bowls in tournaments and bowled in this 1 (well I Donate to the prize fund) anyway I think it was a great thing, even though I can well do without giving 8 pins start to anyone but the results speak for themselves.
My only concern is if the cut and playoffs continue to have a few more ladies in them will some people then want to reduce the pins to say 5!!

 

[Docta]

Im sorry if people think the TBA is being bashed but they haven't exactly done a great job in the passed and the bowling community has a good memory. I bowled in the Mentone cup on the weekend and If you want a good model for a tournament then here it is. Value for money, a playable pattern for all and professionally organised and run. Hat goes off to Warren and his team, I believe in this tourney so much so that, I have spoke to Warren and will be contributing to the sponsorship for next year. Now there were not 8 pins given in this tournament but there were plenty of women bowlers that were all happy to bowl and I believe 2 made the cut and cashed well.
Its not rocket science, just give value for money and market the product. It was interesting to hear what a couple of the girls did have to say in regards to the up coming AO, but that can be left for another post.

 

[CHIN]

Im sorry if people think the TBA is being bashed but they haven't exactly done a great job in the passed and the bowling community has a good memory. I bowled in the Mentone cup on the weekend and If you want a good model for a tournament then here it is. Value for money, a playable pattern for all and professionally organised and run. Hat goes off to Warren and his team, I believe in this tourney so much so that, I have spoke to Warren and will be contributing to the sponsorship for next year. Now there were not 8 pins given in this tournament but there were plenty of women bowlers that were all happy to bowl and I believe 2 made the cut and cashed well.
Its not rocket science, just give value for money and market the product.

It was interesting to hear what a couple of the girls did have to say in regards to the up coming AO, but that can be left for another post.

You make it sound like TBA has something to do with the tournaments.

I would like to add another view on why I believe that the TBA has brought this ruling in.
The ladies are currently only bowlling in 4 ranked events plus the Australian Masters. Having so few tournaments is not a great preparation for the bowlers who are selected to bowl for Australia overseas. Encouraging the ladies to bowl in the Open events fills the void of not having many ladies events What better way to make the ladies better bowlers than having a competive match against the top men bowlers. I also believe that the top men also benefit by having to fight for a win against one of the top female bowlers.

I don't beieve that the majority of bowlers have any idea on how hard it is to bowl oversesa against other counries. The team that just returned from the commonwealth games achieved great results. They had to complete against coutries like Singapore, Malaysia and England. To finish the leading country against this type of competition was credit to the bowlers and coaching staff.

Getting great results overseas then helps with funding and advertising for the sport of tenpin bowling.

So in a nutshell I believe that this decision by TBA can only help the sport as a whole.

Well put.

People keep complaining TBA doing such a bad job yet they haven't put forward one proposal on how to fix this imaginary problem.

 

[becka_girl]

Im sorry if people think the TBA is being bashed but they haven't exactly done a great job in the passed and the bowling community has a good memory. I bowled in the Mentone cup on the weekend and If you want a good model for a tournament then here it is. Value for money, a playable pattern for all and professionally organised and run. Hat goes off to Warren and his team, I believe in this tourney so much so that, I have spoke to Warren and will be contributing to the sponsorship for next year. Now there were not 8 pins given in this tournament but there were plenty of women bowlers that were all happy to bowl and I believe 2 made the cut and cashed well.
Its not rocket science, just give value for money and market the product. It was interesting to hear what a couple of the girls did have to say in regards to the up coming AO, but that can be left for another post.

Nothing against Mentone Cup because I agree its a great tournament. I believe the reason the woman did bowl so well was because it was a simple house pattern, if it was another pattern then it may have been a different story.
Just my opinion...