What the plastic ball championship has shown us
- Thread starter GeorgeF
- Start date
tonx
New Member
Jim,
High RG balls do retain energy longer than low rg balls if all other variables are the same. While thats not the be all and end all of core physics, it's at least the basics to get you going.
Then factor in pin positions (which amongst other things change which RG axis plane the ball rotates around) differential (which is the difference between the low and high rg axis's of the core shape) intermediate differential (how strong the "mass bias" is) COR and COF values (deflection/friction values) RA and RF values (how deep and wide the "treads" of the cover are at the microscopic level) a few basic laws of physics (Mo Pinel says 3 rules are relivant to ball motion) Inertia (MOI)....
Thats just a few variables with the ball itself. Factor in everything to do with the lanes, pins, topography, conditions, humidity, AND the hundreds of human variables and you have yourself a whole lot of time spent making a really simple task (knock 10 pins over) into a science...
I guess why the saying goes "There is no luck in bowling, only physics".
Going for a lie down now, my head hurts
High RG balls do retain energy longer than low rg balls if all other variables are the same. While thats not the be all and end all of core physics, it's at least the basics to get you going.
Then factor in pin positions (which amongst other things change which RG axis plane the ball rotates around) differential (which is the difference between the low and high rg axis's of the core shape) intermediate differential (how strong the "mass bias" is) COR and COF values (deflection/friction values) RA and RF values (how deep and wide the "treads" of the cover are at the microscopic level) a few basic laws of physics (Mo Pinel says 3 rules are relivant to ball motion) Inertia (MOI)....
Thats just a few variables with the ball itself. Factor in everything to do with the lanes, pins, topography, conditions, humidity, AND the hundreds of human variables and you have yourself a whole lot of time spent making a really simple task (knock 10 pins over) into a science...
I guess why the saying goes "There is no luck in bowling, only physics".
Going for a lie down now, my head hurts
jimcross
Active Member
Going for a lie down now, my head hurts { tonx }.
Ha ha- good one. I don't know if my head hurts or not, it's gone numb. When it recovers, i'm going to continue to process the info you supplied.
I'm very determined to actually know what i'm doing, before deciding on the next ball and how to have it drilled. I want assistance that it can supply, ( to be competitive) but I want what I do with it to remain the dominant factor in the result.
Is this reasonable to aim for?
Ha ha- good one. I don't know if my head hurts or not, it's gone numb. When it recovers, i'm going to continue to process the info you supplied.
I'm very determined to actually know what i'm doing, before deciding on the next ball and how to have it drilled. I want assistance that it can supply, ( to be competitive) but I want what I do with it to remain the dominant factor in the result.
Is this reasonable to aim for?
jason_doust
The Bowling Geek
Hi Geoff, I've always thought wrist support devices were, at best, a training aid. But if we made them, say, on a medical certificate basis, people would just find doctors to write the certificates. Maybe have "assisted" and "unassisted" divisions that play for their own money? (I suggested this for left and right handers once and all hell broke loose!)
Hi Jim, Today's ball make the 16lb ball almost irrelevant. It will kick out the extra corners like it always has, but will leave a lot of 9 pins, because of the massive cover friction of a sanded reactive, causing it to bulldoze right through the deck. I'd love to throw 16's again. 15 was always what the ladies used in he 80's!
Hi Jim, You can still manipulate your release to change ball roll, but the results aren't always what you might expect. I resorted to spinning the ball at Orange last weekend to try and play more of the friction and if I got the tiniest bit soft, the ball would nose dive from the increased axis rotation. Spinning used to impede backend motion and was a great option. Now, not so much.
If you wish to be more in control of what the ball does; And I'm guessing you want a versatile ball, then aim for a mid-range reactive. Another good rule of thumb, depending on your ball speed, you'll need to decide between a solid (earlier reaction) or pearl (later reaction) cover. PM me for more details if you like.
Hope this helps.
Cheers,
Jason
Hi Geoff, I've always thought wrist support devices were, at best, a training aid. But if we made them, say, on a medical certificate basis, people would just find doctors to write the certificates. Maybe have "assisted" and "unassisted" divisions that play for their own money? (I suggested this for left and right handers once and all hell broke loose!)
Hi Jim, Today's ball make the 16lb ball almost irrelevant. It will kick out the extra corners like it always has, but will leave a lot of 9 pins, because of the massive cover friction of a sanded reactive, causing it to bulldoze right through the deck. I'd love to throw 16's again. 15 was always what the ladies used in he 80's!
Hi Jim, You can still manipulate your release to change ball roll, but the results aren't always what you might expect. I resorted to spinning the ball at Orange last weekend to try and play more of the friction and if I got the tiniest bit soft, the ball would nose dive from the increased axis rotation. Spinning used to impede backend motion and was a great option. Now, not so much.
If you wish to be more in control of what the ball does; And I'm guessing you want a versatile ball, then aim for a mid-range reactive. Another good rule of thumb, depending on your ball speed, you'll need to decide between a solid (earlier reaction) or pearl (later reaction) cover. PM me for more details if you like.
Hope this helps.
Cheers,
Jason
Jason,
A different comp for L/H and R/H - your a funny guy
I bet you really coped heaps for that little brain storm
Your comment on 16lb balls is interesting
Due to health issues i have been bowling 14lb for
the past 5 years
I have found that speed is much more critical
than with heavier balls as you really can't get
away with quicker than your normal speed without
it hitting like a bucket of ####
As for the other comment of the heavy ball driving harder
This week I left 4 x 9 pins ,and spared them i might add, and The rest of the
game of all strikes with my 14lb ball
As for wrist gaurds I would Ban them
Cheers
Geoff
jimcross
Active Member
Hi Jason,
Yes, you're conclusions are right about where I'm heading.
I'll be a month or so before - hopefully - I'm cleared to bowl again. Through these posts and reading, I'm heading towards similar ideas to your suggestions. Thanks. Closer to the time, I may well PM you. Thanks again - and to tonx also { hope his headache is subsiding.}
Yes, you're conclusions are right about where I'm heading.
I'll be a month or so before - hopefully - I'm cleared to bowl again. Through these posts and reading, I'm heading towards similar ideas to your suggestions. Thanks. Closer to the time, I may well PM you. Thanks again - and to tonx also { hope his headache is subsiding.}
jimcross
Active Member
Obviously, it's not cheating if the rules allow it. - different from the Storm - I've used them on and off over the years. Presently, I'd prefer not to, purely so to be able to vary release.
If you need a support to be competitive, especially if others you're competing with are, then why not? I'm sure Geoff agrees. Believing something should be banned is one thing ( with which I agree) but if it's not, you can't expect people to disadvantage themselves.
Interestingly, in the days of the ATBC, I could find nothing in the rulebook about them, and I was considering making one, so I wrote to the ATBC asking if there were any specifications to be complied with, if I did so. After a second letter and a follow-up 'phone call, I got no answer.
I think with wrist supports as with balls, the true isue really is:- where are the limits to specifications? Advancing technology is universal, but if we continue the way we are in bowling, we'll eventual convert it to a 'virtual' sport. I'll be able to sit here and challenge Belmo !!!
bluey
Member
Ha, you wish. (like many of us)
Easy Tiger
Active Member
He's proven how good he is but by no means is he unbeatable! There's certainly a few guys here who have the ability to take him on. I reckon despite ability he's got most beaten mentally before even shoeing up, which is good for him but a bit of a shame for the rest!
Back to topic, balls have gone too far but the horse has bolted, they can't reign in what's already been allowed to happen. What they do need to do is limit the future technology now before it gets even worse.
This thread has been really good reading. Very informative and although there have been difference of opinions, still it has been positive.
I have one question though... ( albeit a little off topic) What changes are effected in ball motion with an increase or decrease in axis tilt.
I have one question though... ( albeit a little off topic) What changes are effected in ball motion with an increase or decrease in axis tilt.
Willey
I think you missed my previous post where I clearly
stated I was not suggesting people were cheating
My view, Like yours Is welcome on these subjects
otherwise we might as well not have a forum
I will explain again.
My view is Wrist gaurds do stuff for peole they
otherwise cant or wont do for themselves otherwise
they wouldnt wear them
Therefore I feel they offer an advantage where it
lets people play without needing to be concious of
that one particular function that other people need
to keep a focus on
The only wrist gaurd that should be legal is one that
supports ones wrist due to weakness or injury, Not
devices that provide a specific release.
That Is my opinion
Do you wear one yourself ?
Hi Jim
I have never had an issue with someone bowling with a wrist gaurd
on in real life
This is a forum for talking about issues, which is what i am doing
In the end they are an aid to make you bowl better
personally i respect the efforts of people more who dont use
a wrist gaurd because they are doing all the bowling themselves
Not much point you contacting the ATBC they have been
gone for years, Now that is another story most people
would not know about
Try the TBA website and make contact and leave a comment
Cheers
Geoff
jimcross
Active Member
I don't think it's ever likely to happen. Bowling Associations just don't have the clout - even if they have the genuine desire - The 'Industry' is just too powerful. It's not a problem changing things retrospectively: just ban sales from some forward date, ban use in tournaments from the date of the decision, and allow the rest to just slowly wither away in leagues, etc.
Not just theory - been done in other sports.
Geoff, have another little read of my previous post.
Jim
Sorry Jim
I Got the ATBC thing as if it was in the present not the past.
I'm with ya now !!!
No real surprise they didnt answer you....
Cheers
Geoff
Willey, you are quiet correct about Bradfords wrist. He had problems with it all his bowling career. After every tournament he would have his hand under cold water for about half an hour. Credit to him for playing the way he did to win all those tournaments. Shame he didn't hurt it more, maybe I could have won a few more tournaments. One of the nicest guys I have bowled against.
Cheers Lovey
Cheers Lovey
The Glove Chris Batson used was a kicker glove with the little pad that used to push the ball onto the base of the index finger and at one stage he used it to stop the ball from hooking.
Ian Bradford was a star of the times, I enjoyed watching him bowl very much
I also knoew he had a wrist problem which was part of my point made
In the end It is just a view I have for the reasons I have listed
It is not meant to upset people or acuse people of cheating
Cheers
Geoff
RobbieB
Rodentus scientificus
RobbieB
Rodentus scientificus
Sorry guys, it appears my idiot daughter has been busy.
Plastic balls vs resin balls - I actually believe that on a typical house shot today the lane conditions allow anyone with good technique to score well even with plastic. What the resin balls do is allow those with poor technique to do the same. And we see the results every time any sort of tournament pattern is laid that eliminates the free hook on the edge - the scores that suffer the most are the guys who average 220+ on house ditches, but never see a shot that actually exposes their true ability level. It's too late to turn back the clock on the balls, and unfortunately bowlers love high scores so I can't see much changing with the conditions either. Toughen up the tournament shots and let those who actually care about getting better know where they stand, and see what happens.
Plastic balls vs resin balls - I actually believe that on a typical house shot today the lane conditions allow anyone with good technique to score well even with plastic. What the resin balls do is allow those with poor technique to do the same. And we see the results every time any sort of tournament pattern is laid that eliminates the free hook on the edge - the scores that suffer the most are the guys who average 220+ on house ditches, but never see a shot that actually exposes their true ability level. It's too late to turn back the clock on the balls, and unfortunately bowlers love high scores so I can't see much changing with the conditions either. Toughen up the tournament shots and let those who actually care about getting better know where they stand, and see what happens.
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