Tournament entry fees..where do they go?

[wchester]

To all tournament promoters and directors,
Is it possible for you to give us a financial breakdown, so that the bowlers know exactly where their entry fees are going? How much goes for lineage and how much is earmarked for expenses? What added monies are being put into the prize fund?

In the eight years that I've lived here, I haven't seen a tournament financial report once. AMAZING!

Maybe you should follow the lead of tournaments sanctioned by the USBC and include the formentioned information on your entry forms. That way there are NO SURPRISES.

 

[bowlrig]

Wayne, the Sunraysia Marathon has had an entry fee breakdown on it for the last 15 years.
It does not incude the sponsorship portion but press a button or two on a caculator and you can work that bit out easily enough.

Rob

 

[wchester]

Taken straight from the current TBA Rule Book...

RULE 812 FEES AND PRIZES
a. DESIGNATION OF FEES
The management of any accredited tournament must in all cases designate fees separately on the entry form and poster as follows:

Prize Fee
Bowling Fee
Tournament Expense Fee
Total, per man, per event

The “tournament expense fee” will be used to help defray the operating costs.

A few weeks ago I relayed this information to Brett Best, the National Tournament Director for AMF. I wonder when AMF is going to follow this rule and publish the entry fee breakdown.

 

[Jase]

Since you bring all this up Wayne, would you like to give us a carbon copy of what it is YOU NEED to see regarding this…Something that YOU APPROOVE of… Give us the guidelines that we need to stick by, certainly one that YOU once again approve of…

Also all the events I have seen run or been involved with I have never heard of anyone taking money out for a “Tournament Expense Fee”

I would hate to see tournament promoters get it wrong, and then get a spray for that also…

Tell me...this’d be what’s stopping you from bowling in events?...because the way I see it you make a lot of noise for someone who doesn’t bowl anymore…

Thing is the only customers that can complain are the paying ones…

Just my thoughts of course…

 

[JWhitty]

Also all the events I have seen run or been involved with I have never heard of anyone taking money out for a “Tournament Expense Fee”

Sure you have, Australian National Championships (both Junior and Adult) take a fee, and I know ACT State Championships has declared an expenses fee for some time. If you look on the entry forms for each you will see these on the page with the actual entry portion. Even the Darrell Holt form has that section on there, even though this year it reads "Tournament Expenses: $0"

I'm not complaining, I don't have an issue with paying a small fee for the stationery and staffing required to hold an event. Personally I don't mind chipping in a little more so that for things like Brunswick Cup, Brett (or representative) isn't out of pocket for his time and effort.

I have been at each ACT State Championship for the last few years with my noetbook and personal printer. Every few events the state board reimburses me for a print cartridge, and most events they give me a stack of paper. This is where your "Tournament Expense Fee" goes, and it seems fair enough to me...

Sponsorship of events helps, with external organisations pouring money into an event you might cover the expenses, thus all entry monies are easily observed moving into and out of the prize fund, and direct costs (lineage)

 

[steve jones]

Wayne,

You have the right to ask whatever you want and so you should - and whilst I no longer play an active role in the sports side of bowling I can assure you [for whatever that may be worth], that having been a Regional Manager for AMF, Brunswick's GM Operations Asia and Pacific, National Marketing and Media Manager for the ATBC and tournament director of over 150 major events including AO's, Melbourne Cup's, Asian Masters, etc etc there is simply NO "fat" in the budget's of any Australian or Asian tournament I have been involved in, promoted, sponsored or run that offers anyone the opportunity to skim off the top, bottom or even the middle. Now can I say without fear that someone, somewhere hasn't tried to pocket something [as small as it would be], in some event at some time - of course not - but I'd bet very good money almost all tournament promoters have the one goal - give as much back to the players as they can whilst covering fair and reasonable expenses. Do I have my "rose coloured glasses on Wayne" maybe - but I'd like to think this is still the way it is. Now does that mean people shouldn't follow the Governing rules of finanicial declarations - well no of course not - but I think there's a way to get this in play without raising a red flag.

 

[Sydpies]

Nice Post Steve...and Wayne u might be surprised that over the years AMF and Ed Fleming Lanes have always put more funds into the pool due to low entries or some sponsorship not coming thru etc. Personally I believe you are attacking a lot of good Tournament directors with you pointing the finger for no other reason than being a Sh..t stirrer but of course you have so much time on your hands....
Maybe you should get off your ARSE and get involved with any one of committees around the country and then you will see where all this extra money is being squandered.......

 

[wchester]

SYDPIES..and JASE
Should we just pick which TBA rules we wish to follow and which one we choose to ignore? Is that what you guys are advocating?
it's printed in the TBA rule book... why can't everyone adhere to the rule.
oh..and Joe, I really won't answer your personal attack on me so please grow up.

 

[Shoey]

as others have pointed out that they have always seen entry forms with a total breakdown of the components of the entry fees and Wayne still insists this doesn't happen i think the best thing here is for Wayne to produce these entry forms as a means to back up what he is saying.

personally every tournament i have entered has had a complete breakup of the fees in accordance with the TBA rule Wayne has quoted and i do believe that a small add on cost like "tournament expenses" is a good thing. as also previously stated there are expenses associated with running a tournament regardless of its type whether it be stationery, printer ink or simply a little bit extra for local associations etc to recoup the hundreds if not thousands of dollars spent on software to assist them to run the tournament hassle free produce results in a timely and efficient manner

 

[wchester]

as others have pointed out that they have always seen entry forms with a total breakdown of the components of the entry fees and Wayne still insists this doesn't happen i think the best thing here is for Wayne to produce these entry forms as a means to back up what he is saying.

The proof is right here...open up any of the upcoming tournamnt flyers and have a look for yourself.

http://www.totalbowling.com.au/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=23

 

[Jase]

Hey Wayne here is an idea…Rather than worry if people are penny pinching why don’t you concentrate on something a little more valid…

Ranked events are becoming a JOKE…

The guide lines to holding a Ranked event, doesn’t support the traveling bowlers…

Having a first place guaranteed of $2000.00 and dropping the second place to $1000.00 and the last place in the CUT doesn’t even get there entry fee back is a JOKE…

If you’re good enough to make the cut you should get more than your entry fee back…Even double it would be a good start…

Ranked events nominations are accepted by TBA far too easily these days…Anyone can hold one anywhere…I think the guidelines to holding a Ranked/National event should be reassessed…

Maybe look at the Ranked events should have

• A total prize pool of X amount of dollars
• You must double the entry fee for last place payout in the cut and so on…

One more thing when there is such a big difference between First and second place in the prize fund, I do believe there SHOULD NOT BE A STEP LADDER FINAL…

If someone is good enough to be that far in front at the end of 30 odd games of Qualifying and Match Play, to then lose it in a one or two game stepladder is just not the right thing to do when there is so much difference between first and second…

Once again just my thoughts

 

[Nighteyes300]

Correct me if I'm wrong but aren't all entry forms for TBA accredited events approved by the TBA themselves prior to the event being given accreditaion? so effectivly the TBA is allowing this rule to be broken?

 

[Kellie]

I think you only have to have the first prize at $2000 to get it in the rankings.

I think it is up to the tournament director's to make sure the money is going even down the list, not have big massive drops.

I may be wrong, but that was my understanding.

 

[Sydpies]

Hi Wayne, why dont you ask TBA if you could take over the position looking after the accreditation of all ranked events. Then you could make sure that all entry form comply with all rules and regulations. I am sure that TBA would love to have you on board.

 

[steve jones]

As someone who has been approached countless times to sponsor bowling events there is one primary criteria I seek - how can my business and/or brand stand out from the crowd? If you can convince me you can make that happen, then we are well on the way to doing a deal. Now if Ranked events were limited in number - and thus prestigious and follow VERY strict guidelines and are [the guidelines] premier in nature - then my money being attached to a Ranked event would be important to me as it appears you can part way meet my criteria simply be offering me the privilege of being the sponsor of a Ranked event and all that comes with it.

So perhaps TBA cuts Ranked events down in number - accepts only a given number every year - these must meet very high standards and thus are premium by nature - they could thus attract higher entry fees, larger sponsorhip - they could pay out more money and pay a good deal longer down the list [helps your question Jase] - now maybe there are reason I don't know about that see this as unworkable...but maybe it's worth some consideration.

Jase - finally some years ago when we had TV for a number of majour tournaments each year the simple rule was - NO TV no Stepladder - maybe the same concept these days has merit?

Steve

 

[Brenton_Davy]

Steve Jones wrote:

Jase - finally some years ago when we had TV for a number of majour tournaments each year the simple rule was - NO TV no Stepladder - maybe the same concept these days has merit?

Jase,

We need the stepladder for the Tenpin Bowling Show. SPC proved that just doing matchplay does not give you the best possible production.

Steve,
Refer to my answer to Jase. You should be able to get C31 in WA, it goes to Perth, Albany and Bunbury. Hopefully with improved grahics to be integated into the show very soon, our chances of getting picked up by a network will improve. Let me know what you think of the show.

Brenton Davy
Filming Manager
The Tenpin Bowling Show

 

[Jase]

Brenton,

I didn’t say we “DON’T NEED A STEP LADDER” or TV, my point is that DON’T GIVE $2300.00 for first and $1000.00 for second, and the Guy who leads the event all weekend looses $1300.00 in one bad game…

What I am saying is a $2300, $1800.00 is more of a realistic prize fund…Like I said anyone can get a Ranked event at the moment so long as First is $2000 and the rest of the prize fund is nothing better than a local event…

This is my point…I think the TV is a great thing…So long as the tournament is finished before 8.30pm on the Sunday…

 

[Shoey]

The proof is right here...open up any of the upcoming tournamnt flyers and have a look for yourself.
http://www.totalbowling.com.au/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=23

i followed your link and opened up the 2008 Junior Nationals Entry form and guess what i saw, a full breakup of the bowling fees at bottom of page 3. FYI i have attached the thing here.

so taking a look at any of the flyers it not so specific now is it?

 

[Brenton_Davy]

Fair enough Jase. I misinterpreted you rpost a little.

We are also working to have 1 game matches for the TV show and a repecharge in order to get the show finished a little earlier (makes for better editing too) and to give the top qualifier some benefit for being top qualifier.

 

[Brenton_Davy]

i followed your link and opened up the 2008 Junior Nationals Entry form and guess what i saw, a full breakup of the bowling fees at bottom of page 3. FYI i have attached the thing here.
so taking a look at any of the flyers it not so specific now is it?

Shoey,

I think Wayne is referring to MAJOR tournament flyers, ie Australian Open, South Pacific etc where no such breakdown exists.