Should women receive start?

[GeorgeF]

Well after debating this topic in league with people who can't look outside the square, I'd be interested to hear this forum's views on giving women some sort of start, 5-8 pins is the norm and combining all events.

As I have stated earlier, there are many benefits to doing this including boosting numbers, boosting the standard of all bowlers, boosting competition and most importantly boosting prizefunds!

I'm all for it and I have to deal with it almost every event overseas I participate in. Whats your views?

 

[Craiggles]

If it can be proved that given women a bit of a start would increase the numbers for tournaments, then that's something the tournament organisers could probably pick up on and think of implementing it themselves, if they haven't already. If its something that is going to balance the competition more evenly then its got to be an attraction. There's nothing better than having a tournament and not knowing who is going to end up making the cut, or who will triumph in matchplay.

 

[Hammer]

Hey George,
I agree with 5 pins a game for qualiflying. However do they also get it in matchplay?

 

[bfcc]

steve from what i have been told yes the females get the start in match play also.

just looking at a past tournament to see what effect giving 5 pins might have -

australian open 2004 after qualifing

21st emma rutten 3308
20th steven smith 3316
19th sam nucifora 3324
18th brien showyin 3342
17th andrew thorpe 3345
16th matt riley 3352
15th mark dodds 3354
14th brenton davy 3373

now over 16 games add 80 pins to emma's score 3388 now emma finishes 14th and makes the cut and steve finishes 21st and misses the cut in a national tournament. with out the start emma would recieve $350 dollars for 21st position and had a great tournament with the pins before matchplay emma is in 14th position and looking at a much bigger pay out and the chance to win a national tournament.

now i am not having a go at emma it was just this was the first tournament i looked at and it happened to be emma that finished in the position.

this is were giving ANYONE start in scratch tournaments won't work.

 

[Susanne]

Dear bfcc

So what's wrong with a female making the cut and winning some extra prize money. We certainly put in our fair share of the prize fund over the year with little or no return.

Giving females a fairer playing field would encourage more to bowl thus increasing the prize fund.

Steve would have been more than happy to have finished 21st behind Emma who bowled well and probably missed a certain finals berth in the VIC 150 in order to take on the boys.

Most ladies do not have the extra funds to bowl these tournaments with the expectation of no return.

With the conditions now favouring the power bowlers and with very few new faces and the exclusion of women in tournaments It does not bode well for our sport of bowling.

 

[bfcc]

susanne, from my point of view a scratch tournament is a scratch tournament the person who knocks over the most pins on the day is the winner, it is that simple.

 

[Johnny_Mattsson1]

Sorry to say this but I think its a bad idea, I mean unless you can prove that women are physical unable to bowl better then men I think giving them an extra few pins is an unfair advantaged.

Now over 16 games add 80 pins to Emma's score 3388

Yes, 80 pins Emma didn't knock down and shouldn't be awarded, its like making scratch tournaments handicapped.

 

[Susanne]

If physically strength is not an issue between men and women please let me know what sports, which require it, do not have separate divisions for ladies & men or give a start to the ladies to make the contest more even

I need some help here because I cannot think of any and I am sure there must be some with the exception of tenpin bowling

 

[Sean M]

OK do you think someone on the pba tour that throws a "STRONGER" shot than someone else on the tour has to give away pins??? Take the world masters for instance...(I think that was the tourney) women are up against the men in that and they surely know how to hold their own.

 

[bad_ass]

Hey to whom eva this concerns looks like sussane
What are u tryen to do to ten pin bowling make a disadvantage for bowler's for man bowler's it would only improve our skill's by catchin those pin eevrygame an use wont will jus tthrow the same stuff ova an ova i think a scratch tournament should stay scratch an not become a disadvantage if the woman want 5 pins males want 5 pins if this does happen alot of male bowler's will end up stop bowling tournaments an jus tstick to league bowling woman should not receive anything just to try an improve there prize money it would make thing's alot bloody harder goodbye :shock:

 

[CSP]

Those of you that are against women having start in tournaments are not looking at the big picture. First of all I would like to say women should receive five to eight pins start in open tournaments.

(a) In most tournaments, most of the men will out average most of the women anyway. There is only half a dozen women that would consistently make the finals or win the odd tournament if they received start, the other women could make some money on the odd ocassion with a small start added to their scratch pinfall. The idea is to encourage more women to enter open tournaments and keeping it scratch would not be the way to go because the majority of women would be wasting their money.

(b) The entries in Open Tournaments are not that great except for the Australian Open. The tournaments are not gaining the average male league bowler to the tournaments so why not aim to gaining 15-25 women at the open events by giving them 5-8 pins start.

(c) I believe the idea should be introduced at State tournaments (AMF Grand Prix Events). For example, this weekend's South Coast Open (in NSW) had a total of 46 entries with three women competiting. If you had a start of 5 pins per game for the women, you would have gained an extra 10 women bowling in the event and boosted the entries to 56, maybe even 60 which would have been 10 over the advertised pay-out for the tournament.

(d) Lane conditions at state tournaments have been high scoring and the National events have been tough conditions, most of the women bowlers and the average league player are hesitant in competing against the elite of our sport. Keeping the tournaments scratch would prevent the open tournaments gaining additional entries and also stop the women improving their game and results.

To bad_ass;
What is your average? How many tournaments have you bowled? Most of the male bowlers currently competing would not quit the tournament scene because they will out average most of the women anyway.

To Sean M;
We are debating about amateurs and not the PBA. Of course the women can hold their own against the men on the Professional Circuit, they are in a perfect world. The PBA bowlers are that dam good.

To Johnny_Mattsson1;
The post is about the majority not the minority and the only women that have proven to compete at scratch level against the men are Cara Honeychurch,Ann-Maree Putney,Amanda Bradley,Sue Cassell,Emma Rutten,Jayde Flanagan,Katie Kotteakos,Maxine Nable,Carol Gianotti. The women mentioned would be unfair to give start, but we need to encourage more women to compete and this is the way to go.

To BFCC;
Glad to see you know what a scratch tournament is, just don't expect additional entries in open tournaments via the majority of women if the scratch format is applied. Maybe have a prize fund or other money incentives for the women to encourage more women to participate. They are not getting entries in their own tournaments because their is such a class gap so why would they bowl in open tournaments with the men in scratch format.

To George;
To end this long post of mine, I agree with your views on the subject. Australian Tournaments needs some changes and I think the start for women should be given a run.

This is only my view,
Christian

 

[boybrowny]

Why not encourage juniors and over 45's to compete by giving them a handicap of sorts - as they do in some Asian Zone tournaments....


I agree - it would encourage some additional entries - but how do you do it in such a way that is not discriminatory - by providing pins according to age, sex AND average? (ie - eligible only to those bowlers whos league average is under 185 or similar).


It will be hard to come up with a forumla that everyone likes - one thing that will bring more people on side with the idea is if it can attract sufficiently more interest to gain sponsorship or more entries resulting in higher prize fund.

If the prize fund goes up - then it would be accepted more easily...


food for thought.

 

[micky_macca]

Why not encourage juniors and over 45's to compete by giving them a handicap of sorts - as they do in some Asian Zone tournaments....


I agree - it would encourage some additional entries - but how do you do it in such a way that is not discriminatory - by providing pins according to age, sex AND average? (ie - eligible only to those bowlers whos league average is under 185 or similar).


It will be hard to come up with a forumla that everyone likes - one thing that will bring more people on side with the idea is if it can attract sufficiently more interest to gain sponsorship or more entries resulting in higher prize fund.

If the prize fund goes up - then it would be accepted more easily...


food for thought.

I agree with giving women a 5 pin start each game as to increase tournament entries etc etc

I do not agree with this however, scratch tournaments are scratch, giving women start is already pushing limits, giving juniors a start is going in the wrong direction, junior tournaments are there for a reason, for juniors. If a junior wishes to compete in an adult tournament they are obviously of an elete few such as the Cowland's, Oreilly's and Morrell's. But that is there choice, if they believe they can compete with the best, then go for it.

Give women a start, increase entries, increase prize funds, increase skills and most of all everyone gets a go.

 

[Sean M]

We are debating about amateurs and not the PBA. Of course the women can hold their own against the men on the Professional Circuit, they are in a perfect world. The PBA bowlers are that dam good.

CSP....what is this "Perfect World" you are talking about? The fact of the matter is we are all given a condition to bowl on and we all have to bowl on it. So what difference does it make if they are Ameturs or Pros?

By the way.....can't wait to give Cathy a start for instance.

Like I have said....I will be the first to admit that she throws a much better ball than me so why axactly should I have to give her a start? Sure I'm not one of you guys that go out and average 220+ most tourneys. Most of the time I am stoked to get some money back so like it has already been said, I think you will discourage alot of so called "fringe bowlers" away from tourneys.

That's the way I see it anyway. I don't know....maybe you might encourage more lady bowlers than you will discourage fringe bowlers. I spose its all a learning curve like anything new.

 

[boybrowny]

Sean M,

Good point you raise - but the reality is that I am sure you bowl in these tournaments not to make money - but to improve your game to a place when you do.

Those 'fringe' bowlers you talk about almost always budget to enter a tournament and not get money back (certainly not meet the cost of any accommodation/ travel included) - I know because I was one.

I presume you bowl to improve your game? I make this presumption because bowlers who regularly dont cash and continue to bowl is because they love the atmosphere and socialising that goes with it - it's their hobby.

These people will enjoy it more because they will be meeting new people who may start to attend tournaments.

Bowlers like yourself will benefit - 'cos when you have improved to the point where you average 200+ and start cashing at most of the events - the prize funds will hopefully be highter and you will have the opportunity to play against many different players (not the same ones all the time).

Hopefully such an initiative would not 'scare away the fringe bowlers'.

It is something that has been tossed around for sometime - and I would like to see it as an experiment at a major event. May have to run it that way for two or three years before you see the benefit - but I think it would be a worth-while experiment....


Cheers !

 

[wchester]

Why not encourage over 45's to compete by giving them a handicap of sorts - as they do in some Asian Zone tournaments....

food for thought.

I wouldn't want the extra pins... that would be akin to admitting I wasn't good enough to win scratch.

 

[Halo05]

i bowl against man in the league as they were no surprise how good i was as my average is 194 is seem same fair with man average but no matter how woman do better, u see why the prizemoney is different to woman, male always get $2,000-$7,000 but woman dont get that much like male do, always get $600-$3,000 why because too many woman dont want to play with male they knew male is always beat on woman to high some brave woman to get in male tournment but who cares as i can see that emma who brave to go on she should get earn bit points i think that make sense and fair. it would be good to get together it will encouge with woman their improve the skill. why would male laugh thinks woman cant be in male tournment it very DISCRIMINATION please let it go if u get jealous that woman do get bit point over it and for example if woman get 2987 but male do get 3690 over just be fair let her go. some male know that woman CAN DO IT i have seen some male do encouge woman it true.

 

[Morwell Tenpins]

Hi guys, Very interesting reading everyone's comments. I would agree with George and as some of the bowlers knowour first National Ranked Youth Tourney allowed the girls to have pins. Some guys disagreed and we did lose some entries, but what was upsetting was that the females did not support the event.
However listening to you all,the one thing that no one has mentioned is why are these female bowlers not supporting there own Female tournaments. Yes you hear the comment I am not bowling in that tournament because the prize money's not good enough........Well guys the prize money is never going to be good enough until all the women bowlers support there own event. Maybe then the prize money would be much higher because you had a lot more entries.
The sad part in womens bowling, is that only a handful of female bowlers chase the tournament scene.
So I agree with George something has to change to help encourage all those females to bowl in our major's, it adds a bit of atmosphere to the tournament and tends to become a social afair at the same time.
It was mentioned that a Male tournament always offers a lot more in prize fund then the female event.Well it does make sense that there are more males supporting there own tourney's then females.
Of course we could throw a real doosa in here by letting males bowl in Female tournament that would really boost prize fund..........But I would bet that most of the female competitors would withdraw there entry. So you are back to what george has suggested.
Anyway the idea is to create a larger prize pool by getting more bowlers to participate in tournaments. So any thing that will attract more entries has got to have some merit.
Maybe a cut off on averages for any female with an average over .........lets say 190 that way these females are competing on level terms with all the male bowlers and any female under 190 ave is allocated a 5-8 pins per game........

 

[Hawka]

Hi Guys

Very interesting reading, I would love to bowl in tournaments regularly but unfortunately like many women I have chosen to have children and therefore my bowling has had to take a back seat, as I cannot afford to keep up with equipment and the costs of tournaments. I would love to see a tournament circuit developed again fully in Victoria, however I realise the previous ladies (and Mens) circuits were not paticularly well supported. However since bowling Rachuig trials this year there definitley appears to be far more competitive women in Victoria again who may actually support a revamped tournament circuit. I personally would probably rather see extra cash incentives for top five, for example, women out of the cut/cash than a predetermined five pins per game, (but hey if you're gonna give it to us for nothing we'll take it) which except for the few exceptionally competitive women would probably not make a lot of difference, I know I am more than five pins a game below the top men bowlers at this stage. Warnambool Cup has offered such incentives to encourage women to bowl. Maybe as some suggested for the likes of us below a 190 ave you could try an 80% of 200hcp system and see if that helps, because obviously more entries means more cash to payout and possibly a cap on the costs of tournaments in the next few years as a result.

Thanks Just a few thoughts Cheryl Bast :Fade-col:

 

[craig]

i disagree on anyone getting a start for this reason

it opens handicapping in scratch tournaments in many ways

women get a start
youth get a start
juniors get a start
seniors get a start
sponsored players get negatively handicapped
fiq reps get negatively handicapped

and it goes on and on and on, you allow one, and then it will be lobbied for another and another and another

people on here bitch about belmo, brando, george, jez and co regularly, so how long before someone would lobbied to get them handicapped against