NSW Open..TBA approved this condition? YOU'RE JOKING !

[bfcc]

hi roy sorry i didn't answer your question quicker , i was running the sport series from the start and the first 3 or 4 tournys were all the same after about 6-8 games the conditon would break down and the house shot was coming through, so i contacted kegel and asked the guys what could we do.
the reply was too wash the lanes off 3-4 hours before you oiled them and to only bowl 6 to 8 games on condition. well not wanting to be at the bowl from 3 in the morning we decided to wash them off after the moonlight bowl finished around 12,30-1.00am leave them sit . we then run the cleaning pattern over the lanes then we go over them again with the oiling patterns. the conditions seem to last about 8 games then they breakdown but the walled up house shot doesn't come through so the scores don't go through the roof.
now i am not sure why this works but it does, that's why i asked the question. i think the patterns that tba are putting down might be a 3 to 1 patterns but are breaking down and the house shot is coming through.

 

[DaveK]

I wrote: Why dont you bowl anymore ??? Mr PBA

Wayne wrote: I'm 51 years old..don't I have the right to hang the shoes up? At least I went out a winner..My last bowling event was the 2002 Goldpin BendiGold Cup..which I won!

Well done on winning that event. - you still probably complained about it.

You're one funny dude Wayne - I hope you come down to the SPC - maybe we could be meet in person.

51 man thats over the hill no wonder you gave Bowling away !

 

[Stax]

A quick reply.
Keep dishing up this "3-1" pattern and George, Brenton and Andrew will keep dishing out the pain. Lefties will dominate, not always win, but 60-70% of the top ten will be southpaws.
Level playing field, maybe, but nice smooth boards, no heads to breakdown, no real moving required, 0-3 boards at worst, but then give him the gutter as well, and its all over.

From a leftie.

Stax

 

[farma]

Carl, having spent a bit of time talking to the guys from Kegel I am certain that they would tell you that that the left should ALWAYS be different from the right to make it fair!

 

[Stax]

Carl, having spent a bit of time talking to the guys from Kegel I am certain that they would tell you that that the left should ALWAYS be different from the right to make it fair!

WHY?

Is it because there are more righthanders than lefthanders? What happens when you get 28 entries to a comp with only 5 entries being lefthanded. Maybe you are able to find the right balance but the following week there are 10 lefthanders, then 12 then 14. Do you keep changing the left hand side? How do you work out when its fair, when no lefties make the cut? You cant (shouldn't) give the lefties one condition and the righthanders another. It will blow-up in your face.
One day every lefthander will make the cut and it will be said that the condition was laid unfairly to advantage the left. Then if no lefties make the cut, it will be said that you "shut out" the lefties on purpose.
It's always going to be a tough call, but you should put down an even pattern.
My lefthanded thoughts.
Stax

 

[Beanie]

So, you lefties want a flat condition because you know you will have an advantage. Maybe we should run separate divisions for lefties and righties (similar to separate divisions for men and women) with separate prize funds.

But wait, that wouldn't be fair (or so the lefties would say) because the right handed bowlers would be bowling for a bigger purse, simply because there are more of them. But there is nothing that unfair about it, it's simple economics.

Actually, that's not such a bad idea - having separate divisions for lefties and righties instead of men and ladies. Doing it for a couple of tournaments would add a bit more variety on the tournament scene.

David.

P.S. Can't wait for SPC. Kegel did a magnificent job at the MTC - leftie vs rightie in the finals of both the matchplay and stepladder, both going for broke. To Andrew and Belmo, thanks for a magnificent show.

 

[jasonw]

Stax,

Yes it is very hard to come up with a pattern that is 100% fair for both the left and right sides of the lane, the guy who comes up with the formula would be a legend. Have a look at the attatched pic which was after a tournament in the states somewhere. The pattern started off as a symetrical pattern ie. same on both left and right.

With formats of 8+ games is where the lane pattern becomes a problem with left vs right so the options are to either have shorter formats or asymetrical patterns.

 

[CIO]

Is it because there are more righthanders than lefthanders? What happens when you get 28 entries to a comp with only 5 entries being lefthanded. Maybe you are able to find the right balance but the following week there are 10 lefthanders, then 12 then 14. Do you keep changing the left hand side? How do you work out when its fair, when no lefties make the cut? You cant (shouldn't) give the lefties one condition and the righthanders another. It will blow-up in your face.
One day every lefthander will make the cut and it will be said that the condition was laid unfairly to advantage the left. Then if no lefties make the cut, it will be said that you "shut out" the lefties on purpose.
It's always going to be a tough call, but you should put down an even pattern.
My lefthanded thoughts.
Stax

I'm a righty, but i do agree with Stax.

When you talk about setting up the left different to the right to make it fair, you are always going to be guessing. And how does guessing what condition to put down ever fair?

The only way i can see to set up the lanes and make them fair when you lay down an asymmetric condition is this. Take into account the ratio of rightys to leftys then match that to an asymmetrical condition that breaks down evenly on both sides!!!! In other words, consider a tournament with 25% leftys and 75% rightys. At the end of the day, if you have had an asymmetrical condition that is breaking down relatively evenly on both sides then you have had this fair condition that some ppl are talking about.

After attending the Kegel seminar at the Melbourne Cup earlier this year, and seeing the amount of knowledge that these "lanemen" have about everything from the lane surface topography, to how different oils move; i can honestly say (but it is only a guess) that i think that they would have already considered the concept i have outlined in my above paragraph. And after thinking about it for 10 minutes they probably would have thrown that idea out the window due to the sheer amount of R&D to make it happen!!!!

The above are just some thoughts, i welcome any comments or critisisms from anyone with lane maintenance experience.

Chris

 

[Stax]

Quoted by Beanie
"So, you lefties want a flat condition because you know you will have an advantage. "

I agree, lefties would have an advantage in a field where only 15% are left-handed. But if there was an even number of L v R would you still want the conditions changed.
If it comes down to numbers, the Cannington Classic had more left-handers than right-hander make the cut. So should we now have to alter the right-hand side because there is less on the right!
See where I’m coming from.
It’s a very tough argument. I don’t, for one minute, say that I have the answer, but for "anyone" to state that the left “must” be changed is going to make it appear to be a disadvantage to be bowling on the left.

Is a great topic, lets keep it coming, mabye there is an answer in someone.
Stax

 

[wchester]

Here is the only logical solution I could come up with.

We'd have to change the way we cross lanes..
Instead of the bowlers on the left lane moving to the left after games and the right lane bowlers moving to the right, we would need to keep everyone together for the entire qualifying round.

Right-handers to cross mainly with other right handers.
Left-handers MUST cross with other left-handers and follow other pairings of left-handers whenever possible.

This is the ONLY way to make the left side of the lane break down in a fashion that is even vaguely similar to that on the right.

 

[Beanie]

Stax Wrote:

but for "anyone" to state that the left “must” be changed is going to make it appear to be a disadvantage to be bowling on the left.

Yes indeed, that is the intention behind it, to counteract the natural disadvantage that there is to bowling on the right due to higher numbers. Did you not see Jasonw's chart - a lot more oil disappeared from the right side of the lane than did the left.

Take Rugby, League, or any other type of footy game. Why do you think the teams turn around at half time? To negate the advantage that one team would have by playing with the wind for the whole game.

Sure, we will never get it perfectly fair, nothing in sport ever is. Sometimes the wind changes during the game to advantage one team, but there is nothing that can be done about it.

But what us righties are saying is that a symmetrical condition advantages the left, we can do better than that. We will never completely even out the playing field (unless we were all restricted to using plastic balls) but an assymetrical condition that negates the natural advantage that the lefties have is what we are striving for.

I get the impression that the guys at Kegel have been there and done that, and will come up with the best possible solution that they can at the SPC.

When the Matchplay round comes around, if there is an even amount of lefties and righties in the field then by all means put down a symmetrical condition, but for qualifying it needs to be assymetrical.

David.

 

[Luke D]

You're going to get most conditions favouring a certain type of bowler during each tournament. Whether it favours the lefties or righties; strokers or crankers, one shot will have an advantage

BUT if you think that there won't be an advantage for a shot then you are just kidding yourselves. Pretty much everyone realises that a certain group of bowlers will get up at the end of the day.

It would be great to have the same condition, with the breaking down occuring at the exact same time and making it a true playing field, but in the mean time, you have a condition put down in front of you for the tournament, you bowl on it, try and do the best you can and highest pinfall wins!

I remember at the Kegel seminar at Melbourne Cup, and Don Agent was saying that we are the only, or one of the only, nation/s that has even put down a lane conditioning policy.

Make the conditions where it would be if you can shoot the card then you make the cut. If you don't, then you miss out. Now that would be something I would be loving to bowl in. (Kind of like Perth Cup for the last 2 years. 2003 the cut was +/- 0 and this year it was +15)

Anyway I'll stop now. These are just my thoughts and if you're going to pick them apart then please make sure you read the whole post and not just the bits you want

Luke.

 

[Stax]

On a previous post, within this thread, it was mentioned that as the "marathon continues" the lefties get it better and better. Yes again I agree, but lets look at Georges start.
258 238 290 236 229 259 248 =251 average for the first seven.
Without knowing how many people were actually on each pair during qualifying, the left side of the lane appears to be playing pretty darn good from game 1. I am sure there wasn't that many to a lane, so where does that leave this.
Wayne, your thoughts on lefties following lefties has some merit, but the bowlers would need to be shuffled very change so that the lefties on the "clean" lane can't get the full benefit of the "natural" advantage that the left already has.
For the past 14 years I have attended nearly every major event held in Perth, and watched.
I bowl the day(s) before the tournament to gauge the left side of the lane. The Tuesday before the Classic, I bowled. I bowled again with Brenton the night prior. I had to check with control on a couple of occasions to make sure that this was the pattern going down the following day. A clean sweep to the left was on the cards. I posted this before the start.
http://www.totalbowling.com.au/php-forum/viewtopic.php?p=33029&highlight=#33029
Beanie, I do agree that the left has a natural advantage, but to change the left side oil is not the way to go.

BTW "I watched" Why? Because I do not want to bowl a marathon.

Stax

 

[willey]

Very interesting that everyone is debating this left v/s right problem, this has been going on since the begining of the Pro Tour in the USA. I remember the legend Dick Weber getting fined for bowling with his left hand in the 60's( he shot from memory a 203 game), he was protesting the inequality of the left hand side of the lane. Also there was one PBA event that all 24 finalists were left-handed.
Only in a recent Bowlers Journal the legend Johnny Pretraglia( a lefty) was complaining of the conditions that the lefty's had to bowl on for decades, he thought it very unfair. But how good was Earl Anthony, he would win tournaments when no other lefty made the cut.
But if you read one of my earlier posts on this subject, the way patterns were set up in the late 80's is discribed there, this way of setting patterns was given to us by top lane people from Poly- Chem products, to even the sides up.
willey.

 

[tonx]

It is good reading the posts on this site... and I am quite a regular viewer of this topic...

What Wayne is saying is trying to get across, from what I have read is that the scores were in his opinion 'too high' ( I agree with him but that is irrelivant.) The thing that I don't agree with is him posting an agressive post, stating that the tba is pure and simply lying to the bowlers.

The scores need to be lowered in tournaments, but having a go at the TBA on totalbowling.com.au is without a doubt not going to lower them. Having a go at Peter Couburn should also not happen, because i am dead certain that he didn't lay the condition himself.

(retorical question coming.....)

What would the procedure be if you had a complaint against a company or registered organisation?

(for those waiting for an answer....)

Call up the organisation, ask what the procedure would be for a protest/complaint/queiry. Generally the procedure would include sending a LETTER in writing to the organisation stating the protest/complaint/queiry.

I am sure that if the TBA office were bombarded with letters ASKING for them to review the lane conditioning policy, then something would be done, or at least the letter would be looked at as a serious matter that people actually care about, instead of just trying to pick fights with TBA.

Keep in mind this policy is quite new, and i am sure open to suggestion from the people that it actually affects

As for all the posts regarding tournament format changes, all great ideas, (except for the changing of conditions for left/right sides of the lanes, lol)

Again get together and work out a format that is believed to work, create a presentation, and get in direct contact with the TBA regarding the suggestion.

I actually think that perhaps the members of totalbowling that may be interested, get together and form a group of reps, that can meet with the TBA perhaps before tournaments, and discuss ways to improve the next tourney coming up (which may include the next pattern, formats, entry fees and prize payouts)
The suggestion would only work if people actually cared enough to continue with it.

In short, if you care, show that you care instead of just personally attacking people on a web site.

My Two Cents

Andrew Tonkin

 

[willey]

Well I found out today the pattern at the NSW Open was closer to 2:1 than 3:1, and they still scored, how can that be, isn't the oil supposed to slow them down? Thats what some people believe, but not me, I remember seeing bowlers shoot 200+ averages in tournaments that were bowled on laquer surfaces, with who knows what pattern, it was impossible to tell in the 70's and using a hard rubber ball. So if that can be achieved under those conditions, why do people think that high scores are the result of easy conditions today.
The facts are, with todays knowledge and coaching the bowlers have a leg up when it comes to scoring, plus the consistant oil patterns with superb back-ends, this is why the scores are higher.
In my early days of bowling the so called coach in the centre only picked up empty bottles and cups and only showed people how to put their fingers in the ball.
willey.

 

[craig]

i brought up at the kegel seminar about running 2:1 on the left and 3:1 on the right to even things up, don implied that had merit

how can people who operate on hearsay, honestly make claims about whether a tournament is legal or not, seriously, thats ridiculous

3:1 can be as easy as anything i have bowled on, bowled on some tough ones too, 3:1 is a ratio, not a pattern design, and obviously people are working out how to make it score.

this time the tech strikes back, are the people that are complaining about conditions, also complaining about the gear that causes them???, or do they happily stick their hand into any reactive pill on the market???

everyone should have protested 13 years ago, cause anyone whinging now is wasting their breath, the balls will beat anything these days

suggestion for those that want it agonising for everyone, cut the oil and buff off at 20-25 feet, then watch everyone cry, and you all can sit back in your lounge chairs feeling satisfied that everyone is dejected about averaging 160 and you can sit back and tell everyone how good you would have played the condition from your chair

 

[Gismo]

Well I suggest that 'Crying Towels' are supplied free of charge to any right hander needing one if more than 20% of the cut in a tournament is made up of left handers. Just as good and practical a solution to the left/right problem as any.

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

 

[wchester]

Also there was one PBA event that all 24 finalists were left-handed.

Wrong..In 1969 16/16 were left-handed in San Jose ( only because the owner tried to toughen up the left side and being inexperienced at setting conditions he actually made them easier on the left instead) This result led to the hiring of the first PBA laneman.

Earl Anthony, he would win tournaments when no other lefty made the cut.

Earl was the best shot-maker of all-time!

Well I found out today the pattern at the NSW Open was closer to 2:1 than 3:1, and they still scored, how can that be, isn't the oil supposed to slow them down?

I've seen the graph myself and it only proves one thing..there was an out of bounds outside of the 8th board on both sides of the lane. Since the TBA only graphs boards 3-7 and 18-20, the track is conveniently left out of the ratio formula. Fancy that! Add to this the fact that a 2-1 or 3-1 on a lane graph can actually be a 5-1 or more ratio by oil volume and you'll understand why I say why the bowlers aren't presented with a true a true 3-1 or 4-1 ratio. If the TBA would release the oiling machine programme to public view, there would be a lot more understanding of what is really causing the high scoring pace.

 

[GeorgeF]

A wise man once said

" There was never a lane condition that prevented the winner from winning the tournament "

Scores really dont matter, its about winning just in case people forgot. I dont care if I would have averaged 150, if I would have won I'd be just as happy. People need to stop complaining and go practise some more.

I use to complain about lane conditions but realised about 18 months ago that there was nothing I could do about it. Now I shut up and bowl on whats given to me and try my *** out to win at all costs, thats all that matters.