NSW Open..TBA approved this condition? YOU'RE JOKING !

[wchester]

Regarding the tournaments where I have questioned the oil pattern's legal status...

I have be told by some of the higher finishing finalists and some the champions that the TBA must have fudged the graph readings.

Can't get much more "first-hand knowledge" than that.

Personally, I don't mind seeing a high scoring event every now and then..( just so long as it doesn't become the norm) What I do HATE is having Tenpin Bowling Australia LIE to the bowlers.

 

[mattr]

I think that the suggestion by Mattr is superb, although I would think that it is important to have a three day tournament and still have a masters final, pinfall carried forward of course. I hope that Graham's statement leads somewhere.

I am definately open to new formats and suggestions for things to try. Personally I think that the qualifying - matchplay format has its place - but not in every tournament. We will be looking at different formats in the coming months that are being used around the world, and hoping to introduce them into tournaments next year. Ive already had initial talks with Tony about doing what Matt has suggested for SA Cup next year, and it is quite possible something will come out of it. Will keep you all informed as usual

YAY :lol:

 

[da_cowman]

Wayne, all of your judgements are based purely off personal opinions. While this is no means a bad thing, your still leaving out the 'P' word. Yes, you read right, The 'P' word! You have blantly accused TBA of cheating thier own system, all without using the 'P' word. I think you may have figured the 'P' word out by now. If you haven't then here it is; PROOF! Show me the fudged sheet (

the TBA must have fudged the graph readings

.), show me the the lane condition(graph readings) from Dee Why this gone weekend where the oil ratio is greater then 3:1, or even 4:1 as you stated in your original post. Show me the Lane Condition where the average oil amount on boards 18, 19 and 20 does exceed a number 3 times greater then the average amount of oil on boards 3, 4, 5, 6 and 7 at 3 points on the lane-Between 8-10 feet, 25-30 feet and 1 foot behind the buff line. Now show me a lane condition (graph readings) print out of the NSW Open that DOES NOT meet that criteria, and I will take your point on board. Until that time, then they are simply your personal opinions, and while you are very valid to have and voice these opinions, I do think that your statement of;

What I do HATE is having Tenpin Bowling Australia LIE to the bowlers.

is quite possibly, out of place. Especially when you consider that you have no PROOF to back-up your statement.
Like I said, when it's proved to me that what you are saying is true, then I'll believe you. Also, until you have proof, or if you have no intention of proving it, then you shouldn't be accusing people or associations of cheating without viable evidence (also known as proof).

Later Da Cowman!

 

[Beanie]

I agree with farma, mattr's suggestions are superb.

I remember something like that happening in NZ a few years ago, if I recall correctly it was one of our World Cup qualifying tournaments.

Day 1, 12 games qualifying. Bone dry conditions (even by our standards). Bye bye all the crankers who can't play straight.

Day 2, 15 games matchplay + position round, pinfall carrying forward. Our complaints about the lack of oil were heeded, we were swimming in oil. Bye bye all the straight bowlers who can't hook the ball.

Day 3, 7 games matchplay + postion round, pinfall still carrying forward. Not as wet as day 2, but not by much. But it didn't matter by now as the men had been well and truly sorted from the boys.

In short, it was one of the best ever tournaments I had ever bowled in, it really made you think on your feet. I would love to see something like this happen again.

Rumour has it that this years WC qualifying tournament on our side of the ditch will be a 3 condition tournament, all 3 conditions will be bowled on during qualifying on day 1. Needless to say, I can't wait.

David.

 

[wchester]

Firstly..
If the tournament champions ( who have absolutely no reason to whinge) tell me that the oil pattern was far too easy to be a 3-1 or 4-1 ratio, you have to believe them. Who better to know than the guy or girl who finished on top. What more proof do you need?

The TBA has made numerous mistakes when posting the graphs for previous tournaments, from readings taken at the wrong spots on the lane to charts without the required number of readings to no readings at all. In some instances the graphs have been changed a day or two after first appearing online. Was this to rectify a mistake or was it simply a coverup. I choose to believe the latter.

And the NSW Open was no different.... This time the TBA conveniently neglected to post any readings of the "supposed condition"

If you will have a close read of the lane conditioning policy on the TBA website you will see that :

>>quote>>
Saturday, 24th July 2004 - a TBA Representative witnessed the lane readings at AMF Dee Why and approved the lane condition to be in accordance with the 2004 TBA Lane Conditioing Policy. National Ranking Points will be allocated to bowlers in the 2004 New South Wales Open .
>>end quote>>
BUT NO GRAPH WAS SHOWN.

Upon reading the lane conditioning policy for the umpteenth time, it appears that a slight wording change has been made regarding the taking of the readings.

Peter Coburn reads this board and refuses to post here because he believes there is not much use for the sharing of ideas or information via this site.
My question / comment is.......
THEN WHY ARE WE ALL HERE?

Come on out and play Peter..I promise to let you have a turn at bat. And I won't take my ball and run home like you did.

 

[You have been Munsoned]

WOW

someone else has started a post about lane conditions for once!!!

Thanks Wayne, good to see someone else has a thought towards this.

As for da_cowman, i am going to side with Wayne on this and say, if you supply us with a graph readout from NSW open, i will give you your proof. Pull your head in and think about it. How can they support this? I agree whole-heartently. I too belive that we are being lied too.

bfcc, a question. you say that the lanes are washed, and left for a couple of hours and then oiled so the house shot doesn't blend through. Out of curiousity, how does oil evaperate????? If the lanes are stripped bare, then there is nothing to worry about and you can lay the new pattern straight away, if there is cleaner residue still on the lane, then there is a problem, and if the lanes still have oil on them, then there is still a problem. And if it is a case of you want the cleaner residue to emmulsify the oil and break it down after the lanes were washed to make the house shot dissapear, then there are more problems than you think. Also, if you wash the lanes the night before, in the morning do you lino dust the lanes? If you do, do you use a brand new cloth each time and get all of the oil out of the lino duster? If not, with the amount of dust that settles over night in a bowl, how dirty is your machine, and how much did your patterns break down???

David, are you suggesting that innconsitancy is a good thing. Cause if you are, maybe you should bowl in Australia more often!!! I dont belive that that is a good thing, because you are in effect removing the chances of a certain type of bowler from having a chance of making match play. How would you feel if you missed out, only to find that they changed the lane pattern for day 2 without it being part of the tournement?? I know i would be pissed. If it was in the entry form, then fine, you know what you are getting in for. but otherwise.........

And as for AMF using Kgel products, just remember, a machine is only as good as the person that programs it. It is not the answer to all lifes problems, a good tech can put down a much better program with a Summit, than a bad tech with a Kegel.

Why is it that no one wants to admitt there is a problem. People bitched and whinged for these changes for so long, and now we get them, and they still bitch, but wont say anything about it. I am still waiting for someone to post a reply to my last post (june 16th) after people wanted proof of a lane condition, and then when i posted it, no one said anything. Did the people in question choke on their pride??? or is it a case of when they are proven wrong, they will still try and prove that they right.

Ego, is not a naughty word, ego is not a naughty word.
Dont you belive what you've seen or you've heard.
EGO

Roy

PS, anyone else noticed the conincidence here. All super six events that the problems have been with. Hmm, no couldn't be a conincidence. Why would they need a cover up, the big series event like that, lots of money, exposure, entry numbers, and all the people in AMF know what they are doing, there is no need for a cover up...........

 

[DaveK]

I think we just live a world of complainers.
Can't people just bowl & get on with it. High scores / low scores - doesn't matter.. Just bowl for the love it.

If you are bowling in these tournaments & have not learned to adjust - I suggest you go & practice. Most people that make the cuts in these
tournaments adjust to the conditions vey well & alot have bowled overseas, where they have to adjust.

Everybody has the same conditions on the day.

Dave Kuhn.

Wayne - I dont know why you constantly have a go at the TBA - I have never seen you bowl at any of these tournaments - So I dont think you have a right to an opinion about conditions you dont bowl on.
Why dont you bowl anymore ??? Mr PBA

 

[AdrianS]

If the pattern 'plays' a bit easier than the numbers on the graph suggest then it's just topography at work. Look at Dee-Why, new centre which means a good lane surface, plus tight pindecks and kickbacks. Note the last 2 things i've mentioned(and throw flat gutters in while where at it, pins too) These things have a fair effect on scores too so for the millionth time please stop looking at just the pattern to see why scores are high or low.

 

[Beanie]

David, are you suggesting that innconsitancy is a good thing. Cause if you are, maybe you should bowl in Australia more often!!! I dont belive that that is a good thing, because you are in effect removing the chances of a certain type of bowler from having a chance of making match play. How would you feel if you missed out, only to find that they changed the lane pattern for day 2 without it being part of the tournement?? I know i would be pissed. If it was in the entry form, then fine, you know what you are getting in for. but otherwise.........

Mr Munson,

If you had read my post properly, you would have understood that my inconsistency is a problem - but it is a problem with me, not the lanes I bowl on. I am working very hard to be more consistent, the NSW Open was a good reality check as to where I am at at present.

If you had been checking results and entries lately, you would have seen that I have already bowled MTC and NSW and I am entered for SPC. In addition, I hope to be selected for Rachuig. Total expenses for us to bowl in your tournaments run at $1000 (AUD$900) each, I can't handle doing more than I already am.

As to what I said about our WC tournament being on 3 patterns, all the details about what condition we are bowling on when ARE on the entry form. 32 bowlers in total will qualify for the finals - Day 1 is 6 games on short oil to start, 6 games on medium oil, and 6 games on long oil to finish. Matchplay and stepladder on Day 2 are on long oil. So we can't complain about not being informed, and it's not the lanes' fault if we can't adjust.

Pop quiz whilst I am talking about this, how many times in Australian tournaments do you bowl on 3 different conditions in 1 day? Not that I am suggesting the top bowlers won't still be at the top, I'm sure they will be.

And thankyou to AdrianS for reinforcing what farma said earlier, there are more things that impact the scoring level than just the oil pattern. I just read the thread on bowling in Antarctica - I suspect that you could put the biggest wall ever down in that centre and still not get to a 200 average.

David

 

[Andrew S.]

Beanie - on a totally unrelated query - how does NZ form a Rachuig team? Is it done by means of roll-off or is it selected? I was just wondering if the selection rules we have here in Oz also apply to you guys in NZ or whether you can form your own selection policy?

 

[Beanie]

Hi Andrew,

Our selection is largely based on tournament performance this year, with much more emphasis placed on performance in overseas (Australian) tournaments than our own domestic events.

In my opinion, this is probably the only way we could do it, because we don't get appropriate conditions at home that often, and we can't all travel overseas just to have one or more rolloffs.

The way I understand it, significant emphasis is also placed on attitude to coaching, response to coaching and work ethic - we don't want anybody who thinks they already know everything and believe they don't need coaching or practice etc. So a lower average bowler who is putting the work in and learning might just get picked ahead of a higher average bowler who is not putting the work in. Makes sense.

David.

 

[wchester]

I think we just live a world of complainers.
That's right and I'm going to continue to complain just in case you haven't gotten the message yet.


Wayne - I dont know why you constantly have a go at the TBA
I have a go at them because they are ( in my opinion) a bunch of liars who wouldn't own up to a mistake or lie even if their life depended on it.
Maybe we should vote all the bastards out and start all over again.
Oh yeah, I forgot..THAT isn't possible because they control the votes themselves!

-I have never seen you bowl at any of these tournaments - So I dont think you have a right to an opinion about conditions you dont bowl on.
Why dont you bowl anymore ??? Mr PBA
Even you have a right to voice an opinion. That the great thing about living in a free world Dave.

Why dont you bowl anymore ??? Mr PBA
I'm 51 years old..don't I have the right to hang the shoes up? At least I went out a winner..My last bowling event was the 2002 Goldpin BendiGold Cup..which I won!

 

[willey]

Hi Wayne, and you call me pops, were actually the same age, in fact looking at a photo in another thread I look like you without my glasses, what a shame. lol.
But I still think everyone is beating down the wrong path with this 3:1 or 2:1 or even 1:1, it was found only a few years ago that once you had 5 units of oil on a lane the ball would not grip, the manufacturers got around this by putting particles in the balls, now they had grip, but less bite in the backend.
The reason we put so much oil on the lane and take it so far down the lane is all for the reactive surface balls, this all helps them to score, the obvious thing to do is, go back a few years and take the oil off and shorten the pattern, now the reactive ball becomes useless, this in turn will minimise angle of entry and cut down scoring.
So all this talk about a 3:1 being legal is nonsense, most bowlers would'nt know the difficulty in a Summit laying a 3:1 as they were'nt designed to do that, only to lay a wall, so if the pattern is a little out it's not for not trying to get it right,.
willey.

 

[Murderdoll]

With the amount of times TBA has apparently stuffed up anything thats apparently in their rules, it could be made into a soap opera.

I suppose at the next event, TBA will TRY to fix the problem... Just hope its fixed at about 95% or someones gonna bite your heads off again.

 

[Andrew Frawley]

On a personal note I feel really good about being the author of the TBA lane policy and I believe it has generally served its purpose.

We have had over the past 5 years some ridiculous lane patterns, because techs in some houses felt that placing no oil outside 5-7 board was easier for them to create a condition. Then to use this house shot for a tournament condition is just a cop out. It screams that "I just can't be bothered to try something else, even though I have a National tournament on."

What a change 2004 has been. Congratulations to all techs involved at the centres hosting ranked events. At every event there has been genuine interest in creating a pattern that has oil edge to edge, that is still scoreable but does not give the free bounce at the gutter. To be honest the guys told me at kegel that we really should be going for a 2.5 to 1 ratio if we really want to keep the scoring pace down. Remember the world championships were less than 2:1 and most records were broken.

Why the high scoring numbers during some of the events this year? Of course it has already been answered. Lane topography, surface play such a big part on scoreability. A stone wall block on lanes with a bad surface can play a darn side tougher than a 3:1 pattern on new HPL synths.

I give credit to the bowlers they are getting smarter. Many are crossing less boards, they are better prepared with their equipment as well. Certainly many bowlers are using balls with less track flare as this year there just has not been that much oil on the lanes. I think many of the techs were worried about really juicing them up, hopefully next year we will see a little higher volume of oil on the lane.

As far as Dee Why went, my feeling is that it was a low volume oil condition, maybe less than Mt Gravatt, it was only the surface that saved the bowlers really having to hurl it. I have no clue whether it was 3:1, as a bowler you need to look past that and just play, leave that stuff up to non bowlers.

Now for the harsh part.... I have said it before, our tournament formats on low volume of oil patterns are plain unfair. You cannot have 20 games played per lane and expect that left and right handed players are being tested anywhere near the same. Tell me where how someone playing on A squad was tested the same as a bowler playing on C squad. We have different types of bowlers playing each squad, different temps in the centre that can have a huge effect on oil and ball reaction. If a right handed bowler in his lane draw just happens to follow 5 left handed bowlers, his lanes are going to break down quite differently to someone following a guy using a 320 sanded ball. I am sorry but there is no reason to carry over pinfall from qualifying to the final, especilly when we are going to play 15 games in the final. Tell me where it's fair some of the tournament this year there was 2 or 3 to a pair in some squads and 4 to a pair in others.

Everyone in the final has 15 games to make his or her stand and win the event. All finalists are playing on the same one condition, may the best bowler win.

Hopefully someone out there will "have a go" and try a different format, please give up this boring top 16 format for both bowlers and spectators.
Also hopefully we will see the begining of the end of symmetrical lane patterns for long format tournaments, I have had just enough of watching George not move his feet off 17 board and pretty much use the same ball for the whole tournament. He is good enough already let alone not having to make 15 board adjustments as many right handed players are making.

That probably is enough for right now.................
Andrew.

 

[willey]

Thats what I like too see, someone that actually bowls and knows a little about conditioning making a contribution, and Andrew brings up an old chestnut in right v/s left parity, this is something the 3:1 pattern does'nt adress.
In the not so old days the usual pattern to even up the sides was to use a system of bringing the main body of oil in at the 11 board on the left and 8 board on the right, this was meant to even them up, but a lot of lefty's never bowled that far in so had trouble picking up the condition, so they floundered. I used to strive for an even pattern, so consequently a lot of lefty's won in my centres. Johnny Pretraglia would have been proud of me, as he said in a recent Bowlers Journal article how unfair were the conditions for lefty's in many tournaments in the USA, over decades.
The other thing Andrew brought up was the amount of oil on the lanes, many people don't seem to relize that many AMF machined centres are only one step away from disaster with oil, by that I mean any more oil than the balls don't come back and it's not the reactives but the spare balls, usually highly polished plastic, this could be very embarrassing when you hit that fine line between alright and disaster, believe me they all think about it. So this is a determining factor in oil set up in AMF machined centres.
willey.

 

[wchester]

Good post Andrew..You covered it pretty well.

If you want to be completely fair, why not have the super Six entrants rotate squads from tournament to tournament. The current system of "first in best dressed" squad selection just doesn't cut it. Is it any surprise that "A" squad rarely gets many sign-ups.

Along the lines of your complaint over pair size inequity from one squad to another we can add in the fact that on the short squads (usually "A" Squad) some/many pairs do not get used at all.
Not exactly fair is it.

How about you and I get together and see what we can come up...like a new and fair set of tournament guidelines.

 

[BELMO]

ladies and gentleman...

after travelling to many countries and seeing different formats it is clear as day that our formats are

1. too long
2. too boring
3. too repeatative
4. and long out dated

i know many are worried that by copying other places around the worlds formats it will lead to australian tournment bowling to decline dramatically... just from what i have read i on past posts/replies many dont like the short formats... mainly because ppl are worried at spending large amounts to travel to play in a small number of games.

But the fact and realilty is that bowling is so much bigger on a world scale it is time to re-establish our dominance on a world level.

how do u do this ?

It is simple, we play in formats that prepare us to compete on a world level.... i can tell you now i get laughed at when i tell ppl around the world that i play more then 30 games to determine a winner for each tournment.

now i understand that to win a tournament in Aust is not easy but it just doesnt improve our game...we need to learn to how to jump out of the blocks fast in a short amount of games under the gun...not taking anything from George but he knows as well as i do a lefty was going to win that tournamant. it was just that George bowled the best on the day..

My suggestion like the Frawls is drop long formats and start playing sprints or formats that where the condition of the lane hasnt the time to allow a particular style to dominate.

I know many ppl will disagree with what i have said but if we want to win on a regular basis at a world level we have to start playing by their rules and by their formats because no one plays like us.



Cheers for your time
Jason Belmonte

 

[Beanie]

Thanks to all for all your responses, especially Frawls & Belmo. Good to see some top bowlers voicing their opinions here.

Just reading Belmo's thoughts about the formats being too long, and keeping in mind that SPC is over booked, I have been doing some thinking and I wanted to suggest a format that might be used in future, to generate a bit of variety on the tournament scene:

Qualifying - 6 games across 6 pairs of lanes spread across the house. In a 24 lane centre you move 2 pairs per game, in a 36 lane centre you move 3 pairs per game.

At 6 games per squad you should be able to squeeze in 5 squads of qualifying instead of 3 into one day - potential entries go up by 60%. Imagine what that would do to the prize fund. You could cut the prize fund component of the entry fee back from $200 to $150 and the prize fund would still go up. And more locals would bowl because more locals could afford to bowl. Moorabbin could field 280 entries in an event like this, imagine that.

Matchplay - top 32 bowlers are split into 4 groups of 8 to play 7 games of head to head matchplay. Ladies would probably be top 16 into 2 groups. Seeding of qualifiers ensures an even amount of 'talent' in each group according to form in qualifying i.e. each of the top 4 qualifiers are top seeds in separate groups, 5-8 are 2nd seeds in each group etc etc.

This section would be bowled as doubles. All the bowlers in group 1 would bowl with a bowler in group 4 all the way through, and bowlers in group 2 would bowl with bowlers in group 3. Groups 1 & 4 would be in the middle of the house, groups 2 & 3 at one end of the house and the ladies at the other end of the house. Or you could mix them up and spread everyone around the house, except that would create a lot of traffic at lane change time.

Stepladder - the winners of each group (top 2 in each group for the ladies) qualify for the stepladder, seeding into the stepladder is done by total pinfall + bonus pins. To be fair to everyone who made it, the stepladder lanes would be reconditioned prior to the stepladder event

As to lane conditions, we could use sport conditions. I read in the sports
series threads elsewhere in this forum that those conditions are only designed to be used for 6 game blocks, so why not?

Prizes - Payout for the top 4 is done by the stepladder results, remaining places decided by total pinfall + bonus pins. Or you could do the payouts by the placings in the groups i.e. 2nd in each group (5th-8th overall) gets the same amount of money.

I think this format would be exciting to participate in, and to watch. It's not as long as we currently have as Belmo suggested (max 16 games for the tournament instead of 30+), so pretty soon we will learn to jump out of the blocks faster than at present.

As to an opinion on how I would go in an event like this against you guys? In all likelihood I'll still get hammered. But it would be fun.

A few questions to think about though:
- Would pinfall be dropped after qualifying or not? Remember we are only talking about 6 games in qualifying, not 10. And we are also talking about sport conditions.
- How would the group seedings be done for the matchplay? Like straight knockout events or differently?
- How woud the payouts be done? As discussed above, or differently?

I realise this idea still needs work - a few issues need to be thought through properly - but it has potential. What do you guys think of the concept in general? I'm particularly interested in opinions of bowlers who do a lot of bowling overseas, and how they think this would stack up against what happens internationally.

IMHO, I enjoy the longer formats. But I also agree that they can get boring from time to time. What is needed on the premier tournament scene - on both sides of the Tasman Sea - is a bit of variety to keep bowlers interested, and I believe this format would provide that variety if used in conjunction with the existing formats, and the other suggestions made in this thread.

Perhaps make one event of a series a nominated long oil event, another event a nominated short oil event, etc etc. That would test out bowler's versatility as well as speed out of the blocks. Food for thought?

As Belmo suggested, we don't want to copy other country's formats. So why not do something original, something fresh, something completely different, and at 32 spots for the men something that gives everybody a decent shot at making the matchplay.

I am not suggesting that the format of your most successful tournaments should be changed, far from it. It is the less successful tournaments in terms of entry numbers that should be looked at first for format changes to boost their entries.

David.

 

[Tiger Bottomley]

Well said

I think the right things are finally being said. I notice that according to Wayne it was purely the skill of the 2 winners that won them the event and the fact they were lefties never entered into it. I assume it's the code of the lefties sticking together coming through.

I personally have no problem with either high or low scores however for the past 2 years there has been an extraordinary amount of left hand dominence compared to the left entires. Now I accept we have some fine lefties in this country but this needs to be looked at.

As Andrew and Belmo have said maybe its the formats we need to look at or I would have thought (and I am a bit niave in this area) that we need to accept that the sides will break down differently so they shouldn't be set up the same to begin with.

I know George posted here he moved 6 boards on the weekend however today he told me 2. I believe today as if George needed to move 6 in one weekend he'd need his passport endorsed.

This is not a Lefty bag as I know they can only play on what is set for them and if its there they'd be foolish not to take advantage.

What I'm asking is can the 2 sides b conditioned differently or is the logistics and skills required to accomplish this to difficult? Does it require knowledge not available to us in Australia for this to be achieved and is the shortened formats the only option?