How CAn We Help Country Cup

[bowlrig]

It's funny to hear the power players commenting about suggestion of less oilings as being unfair to them. I listened to other people during the country cup weekend comment that the conditions now favour the power players which means the non power players feel they can no longer be competitive. (In some cases these bowlers won't be bowling again for this very reason). Just goes to show that it is very difficult to keep everyone happy.

I don't think any of the power players as such have commented as yet, but I do think blokes like Tim, Deano, Hamma and such would struggle.
I think the lane condition put down at Ballarat was fairly decent. It held up ok for 3 games then big moves had to be made (on the RHS at least).
I am far from being a power player and am competitive most years.

My previous post was just a suggestion to try and cut back time, as is Russell's, but I think taking CC back to 4 man teams would take away the toughness of this tournament and make 3 or 4 teams to dominant.

Rob

 

[bowlrig]

With the changing conditions, bowlers have to change.

Dave, the sport has changed equipment wise. The balls of years past did not move or remove the oil as they do now. The conditions have to change with the equipment, that is the nature of the game.

Rob

 

[Gatsby]

I don't think any of the power players as such have commented as yet, but I do think blokes like Tim, Deano, Hamma and such would struggle.
I think the lane condition put down at Ballarat was fairly decent. It held up ok for 3 games then big moves had to be made (on the RHS at least).
I am far from being a power player and am competitive most years.
My previous post was just a suggestion to try and cut back time, as is Russell's, but I think taking CC back to 4 man teams would take away the toughness of this tournament and make 3 or 4 teams to dominant.
Rob

I wasn't personally complaining about the lane condition - everyone knows how easy us lefties have it!

I spoke to two people who commented that lane conditions for the past few country cups (excluding Sale) have taken their shot out of the game and therefore they won't be bowling again. They feel the game is pandering to the power players with the extra oilings and areas where the oil is now put. This may be a reflection of them not adjusting to the "new game" but either way that is the end for them. (Both bowlers are also from centres that don't have synthetics - it is not the names that are important - just the comments they made)

It is true you are not a power player and have very been competitive, but I wonder if you would feel the same if we bowled country cup in Sale, Colac, Latrobe valley, Wodonga every year. You might then feel that you don't have a shot for the conditions just like these guys feel they don't have a shot on current conditions - i'm just trying to put a different point of view across.

I also realize your cup format suggestion was only a suggestion. I was just pointing out why i think it wouldn't work and also how hard it is to get something that everyone agrees to.

Dave Farky - we had the same oiling frequency last year too, so just the last three years it has been this way (2006-2008) -- but as Rob said -- modern equipment has dictated this move somewhat and it is unlikely we will go back to the way it was.

 

[bowlrig]

I wasn't personally complaining about the lane condition - everyone knows how easy us lefties have it! Just having a dig mate, even though your side of the lane does not get used as much does not always make it easier.
I spoke to two people who commented that lane conditions for the past few country cups (excluding Sale) have taken their shot out of the game and therefore they won't be bowling again.This is sad to hear. They feel the game is pandering to the power players with the extra oilings and areas where the oil is now put. This may be a reflection of them not adjusting to the "new game" but either way that is the end for them. (Both bowlers are also from centres that don't have synthetics - it is not the names that are important - just the comments they made)
It is true you are not a power player and have very been competitive, but I wonder if you would feel the same if we bowled country cup in Sale, Colac, Latrobe valley, Wodonga every yearWe have only had our synthetics for just over 12 months. Wood lanes have a different feel,sound and shot bowled on them, so yes there are vast differences. You might then feel that you don't have a shot for the conditions just like these guys feel they don't have a shot on current conditions - i'm just trying to put a different point of view across.
I also realize your cup format suggestion was only a suggestion. I was just pointing out why i think it wouldn't work and also how hard it is to get something that everyone agrees to. This I agree with.
Dave Farky - we had the same oiling frequency last year too, so just the last three years it has been this way (2006-2008) -- but as Rob said -- modern equipment has dictated this move somewhat and it is unlikely we will go back to the way it was.

Of the 4 centres you mention, I have only bowled Country Cup at Sale once and Wodonga once. Both these centres now own Pheonix Lane machines, so the condition layed could be a fair one. Colac puts down a reasonable condition and Latrobe still uses a Century 100 I think, so this makes it a bit tough for them. Of the 4 there is one that I probably would not go back and bowl at unless it was C/Cup.
Surley there must be other issues besides lane conditions that is stopping these bowlers from coming back?

I think there are a few issues that we need to resolve with Country Cup. Maybe a few motions delivered to the VCTBA might get the ball rolling.

Rob

 

[craig]

up in queensland you bowled 9 games straight

being a board coverer, i just found i just had to down grade my gear as the day went on, i think to run more games would even things up a little, which isn't a bad thing

as for me, i only have 2 gripes with country cup

make both centres in geelong, be eligible to represent geelong
make albury and wodonga merge to the way it was
bring in horsham
if sale does exist, invite echuca
if they dont, we are back to 10 teams

and lastly

stop being bowling nazi's

the events of friday night should never have happened (for christ sake, i cant believe, it even got to the point 2 state representatives were told they couldn't bowl due to sanctioning to represent their state)

that would have to be the most blatant attempt at trying to crush a players spirit i have seen in 30 years of bowling

and to think they strut around the bowl all weekend as though they are servants of the game

as my friend gary has said on many times

"how about letting common sense prevail"

at the end of the day you either foster, promote and encourage participation

or

you keep doing what you have been seen to be doing for the last few years, discriminating and turning it into a club

i may be saying this, but i am only saying what another 30-50 are thinking

i may be seen as a basher on here, which i most probably are, maybe if i saw some positive moves made that foster and promote the sport, i may just pull my head in

 

[ThEOnE]

Just wanted to interject a couple of ideas...
Bowling 8 team games without a re-oil is suicide. No condition can hold up for 40 games per lane bed (8x5) with the current lineup of bowling balls being used.
In the States there is an extremely popular team format which is called a "Swiss" Each and every game is a postion round, with wins - losses determining the order of finish. You could still use the 7 points per game format, so that would remain the same.
Position rounds every game serve a few purposes.
1) It tends to keep the field from spreading out so much
2) Makes for great spectator viewing with the current 1st and 2nd place team facing off every game.
3) Keeps the bottom teams from becoming disinterested because they are always bowling the team which is closest to them in the standings.
The biggest advantage of all is that it would mean the Country Cup could be played over less games, the total amount which could be voted upon by the Country Cup committee or bowlers themselves.
Of course there are negatives to this format as well. One of which would be that no longer would any team be guaranteed of facing every other team in the competitionTHE WHOLE REASON OF COUNTRY CUP IS TO PLAY EVERY COUNTRY TEAM. So this wont work..

Unfortunately Country Cup is very complex and any suggested variations to change always have negatives which is why we never seem to be able to change.
Rob's suggestion is good in theory, the problem i see is how you rank teams. As we are all playing for the overall trophy then you would rank according to final placings in overall. Ok i agree
Therefore a team like Albury who finished 8th overall would be classified as 7-12 and therefore would get to play the weaker teams twice. They have a very strong Mens team (they finished 3rd this year and won last year). This gives them a huge chance to win Men's section compared with Shep and Sunraysia who would have to play the stronger teams twice.
It's funny to hear the power players commenting about suggestion of less oilings as being unfair to them. I listened to other people during the country cup weekend comment that the conditions now favour the power players which means the non power players feel they can no longer be competitive. (In some cases these bowlers won't be bowling again for this very reason). Just goes to show that it is very difficult to keep everyone happy.
We had all these discussions last year and no-one could come up with a suitable solution and i reckon it will be the same again this time around. The extra time added with lane maintenance has definitely made the competition longer and meant men don't hang around to watch ladies bowl and vice versa - is the option of less lane maintenance really an option? YES
The tournament is still huge fun and always will be, it just needs some fine tuning. I think the main reason people are complaining is to try to improve this great event and make it even better. I think this is the best place to suggest changes as a huge number of CCup bowlers are members of this site (though don't always post). Any solutions can be thrashed out and if a suitable choice is discovered then that can be taken to VCTBA.

Would it be to drastic to keep the format as is and just change to 4 man teams which would make it more competitive. Most centres have 3 to 4 really good bowlers and then it drops away a lot for the not so strong teams. The big plus is it will save a lot of time and everybody still plays everyone twice.Couldnt see it happening

I don't think any of the power players as such have commented as yet, but I do think blokes like Tim, Deano, Hamma and such would struggle. GOOD
I think the lane condition put down at Ballarat was fairly decent. It held up ok for 3 games then big moves had to be made (on the RHS at least).
I am far from being a power player and am competitive most years.
My previous post was just a suggestion to try and cut back time, as is Russell's, but I think taking CC back to 4 man teams would take away the toughness of this tournament and make 3 or 4 teams to dominant.
Rob

Dave, the sport has changed equipment wise. The balls of years past did not move or remove the oil as they do now. The conditions have to change with the equipment, that is the nature of the game.Why not change equipement to suit the conditions, there is so many mid balls that will eract well on such a vast array of conditions that it should be able to be adjustsed to with a ball change here or there, i know the hitting power may diminish but it will be accross the board so it shouldnt matter.Rob

What i am trying to say is if the lanes crack up a little go back to a lesser ball and such. Lane reading would become as critical as ball choice, the quicker you can come up with a line/ball combo the better advantaged over your opponent. Becomes more stratigical. I could just be on my own here?

 

[ThEOnE]

up in queensland you bowled 9 games straight

being a board coverer, i just found i just had to down grade my gear as the day went on, i think to run more games would even things up a little, which isn't a bad thing

as for me, i only have 2 gripes with country cup

make both centres in geelong, be eligible to represent geelong
make albury and wodonga merge to the way it was
bring in horsham
if sale does exist, invite echuca
if they dont, we are back to 10 teams

and lastly

stop being bowling nazi's

the events of friday night should never have happened (for christ sake, i cant believe, it even got to the point 2 state representatives were told they couldn't bowl due to sanctioning to represent their state)

that would have to be the most blatant attempt at trying to crush a players spirit i have seen in 30 years of bowling

and to think they strut around the bowl all weekend as though they are servants of the game

as my friend gary has said on many times

"how about letting common sense prevail"

at the end of the day you either foster, promote and encourage participation

or

you keep doing what you have been seen to be doing for the last few years, discriminating and turning it into a club

i may be saying this, but i am only saying what another 30-50 are thinking

i may be seen as a basher on here, which i most probably are, maybe if i saw some positive moves made that foster and promote the sport, i may just pull my head in

Just what i was trying to say in my previous post.

 

[grumpie]

as for me, i only have 2 gripes with country cup
make both centres in geelong, be eligible to represent geelong
make albury and wodonga merge to the way it was
bring in horsham
if sale does exist, invite echuca
if they dont, we are back to 10 teams
and lastly
stop being bowling nazi's
the events of friday night should never have happened (for christ sake, i cant believe, it even got to the point 2 state representatives were told they couldn't bowl due to sanctioning to represent their state)
that would have to be the most blatant attempt at trying to crush a players spirit i have seen in 30 years of bowling
I have heard nothing on this (Im a mushroom) would someone like to fill me in, by PM will do.
and to think they strut around the bowl all weekend as though they are servants of the game
at the end of the day you either foster, promote and encourage participationFoster and promote is my usual quote
or
you keep doing what you have been seen to be doing for the last few years, discriminating and turning it into a club
i may be saying this, but i am only saying what another 30-50 are thinking
I think I join you in this queue
i may be seen as a basher on here, which i most probably are, maybe if i saw some positive moves made that foster and promote the sport, i may just pull my head in

Lets just say you speak your mind and if more people did this in a controled manner and some things got taken in we would finish up with the best tourny in Australia
Sorry to agree with some of your points because I know you dont like it when I do.:surrender:
Grumpy
Did i really say I do!!!!:surrender:

 

[Gatsby]

Of the 4 centres you mention, I have only bowled Country Cup at Sale once and Wodonga once. Both these centres now own Pheonix Lane machines, so the condition layed could be a fair one. Colac puts down a reasonable condition and Latrobe still uses a Century 100 I think, so this makes it a bit tough for them. Of the 4 there is one that I probably would not go back and bowl at unless it was C/Cup.
Surley there must be other issues besides lane conditions that is stopping these bowlers from coming back?

I only mentioned the four wooden centres to give perspective as to why the two people are disillusioned (not because those centres are good/bad or ugly). I was suggesting that if some of the people who score well on synthetics struggled every time we are on wood they might be reluctant to bowl when we are on wood and they might know how the others are feeling.
I think one person probably said they were not returning out of anger at how they were going but the other will definitely not be returning and that was the reason he gave me -- it might be more involved than that i don't know him well enough to say.

I think there are a few issues that we need to resolve with Country Cup. Maybe a few motions delivered to the VCTBA might get the ball rolling.
Rob

I agree - We all love to bowl Country cup and it is a great event but we are burying our heads in the sand if we think it cannot be improved so lets discuss it and try to find a solution. I am certainly not bagging country cup, i just want it to be even better

(None of what i said was in anger - I assumed you were only stirring re LHS - i know it is less used and therefore more consistent - no arguments there.)

 

[NoodleS]

You forgot us in that mention of wood lanes Gary but its ok I forgive you...lol

Its so hard to say what can be done to improve CC for as we all know you can "NEVER" make everyone happy thats just the way it is. But I am confident everyone can put there heads together at some point and build the stepping stones to making this the bench mark of team tournaments in Australia.

To get any sort of feedback as to if anyone is getting close to something that could be accepted we maybe need to get in contact with some of the people who actually make the big decisions. Just to see if we're getting warmer...

 

[Purple_Tweety]

There are so many great ideas and important points coming out of this thread. Some may work some may not. But it's great that people are thinking outside the square.

I know a lot of people in the position to put things forward or discuss these topics at meetings do read this site. But we all know we have been told before if you want to make a change join the committee. And we also know this is not always feasible.

I am assuming that each centre/association has a delegate who attends VCTBA meetings? Is it worth getting the discussion on the agenda and each association holding it's own meeting within it's own centre and take this then to the VCTBA committee for further discussion? I know in a perfect world we would all drop everything and go and have our own say. But could this be an option?

 

[OTB]

Can I just clarify something?
Old 10 team Country Cup, 18 games, 3 days, was it 4 & 3 for Sat/Sun then 4 for Monday?

It is definitely interesting reading all these posts and ideas.

I think a few committe members (as in local associations) need to get pro-active and talk to their bowlers, your members who you represent.
Maybe the VCTBA could call each local association to have a brainstorm session with interested CCup players, past, present and - why not - future.Then each association secretary could pen the groups main two or three ideas (if there are that many) and submit them to a committee in charge of CCup reform.

On a small aside, I am reading the main problem with CCup is the length of time the lanes are operating and the subsequent times people have to play.
So, I am just throwing a short list out there, feel free people to work on this list.

Things about CCup that need to improve:
1. The format is too long unless the host centre is capable of playing both male and female side by side.
2. Not all centres are capable of laying patterns that would hold up longer than the current lineage situation (and to be honest, it is some people's opinion that not all are now - don't shoot me, just saying it out loud).
3. Not my words, but I have heard someone say there are too many teams. Anyone agree with this?

What I am getting at here is we need to actually identify the faults we CAN fix, there needs to be a consensus on the priority of what is wrong. As many have said, you'll never please the masses, just do the best you can.

So, in my opinion, if a list is made of what NEEDS to be fixed, then it can be dealt with logically and with relevance. If everyone has their own agendas and versions of what is wrong, this is going to be a verrrry long thread that will die a natural death because there is no possible solution to please everybody.

On a positive - things that are good about CCup and can't be lost:
1. The friendship and comaraderie that is gained means everyone has to really be in the one centre - no divisions. One great thing about the tournament is it is literally the only time bowlers from Sunraysia and Warrnambool will see the guys from Morwell and Sale. This should not be lost.
2. It is a prestigious event to win because you have taken on all comers from the available Country Centres. You havent just won your division, you won it all!
3. Its tough, its a team endurance event, and its freakin great to be involved in.

As a really unpopular idea, could the ladies and mens event be held in different centres each year. Atleast then time would be reduced. The obvious negatives here are increased cost in travel for some families where husband, wife and even children bowl as well as it reduces the social interaction in the whole event. I'm not a fan of this idea but it is an idea.
It would certainly be an interesting time at the men's division, more free time, wives bowling in another centre! OMG, the carnage.

People, I am for the positives, please do not read this as a bashing exercise, as Craig has sort of said, be positive and you will get everyone's support.
Country Cup, encourage participation, promote sportsmanship, promote Vic Country bowlers and bowling and provide a great social and competitive experience.

Enough from me.
Next!
David

 

[ThEOnE]

, i may just pull my head in

Yeah right, Would be a better look though!

I was just wondering why we are going to Albury and Wodonga in consecutive years? Should it not be split by a few years in between. Just doesnt make much sense to me, especially if we end up playing the split idea of bowling in both centers, then it would be identical tournys two years in a row! What is the thoughts here?

 

[ThEOnE]

Can I just clarify something?
Old 10 team Country Cup, 18 games, 3 days, was it 4 & 3 for Sat/Sun then 4 for Monday?
David

It was, but on Monday it was usually a crazy 2+2, remember sitting in the whalers pub for 2 hours at warrnambool waiting for the ladies to finish, having shots of cowboys?

 

[OTB]

It was, but on Monday it was usually a crazy 2+2, remember sitting in the whalers pub for 2 hours at warrnambool waiting for the ladies to finish, having shots of cowboys?

Ah yes, I also remember a particluar YOUNG bowler trying to keep up with, lets just say more seasoned drinkers, then making a right knob of himself losing the last three meals he ate out the way they came in! Good times.

 

[grumpie]

I was just wondering why we are going to Albury and Wodonga in consecutive years? Should it not be split by a few years in between. Just doesnt make much sense to me, especially if we end up playing the split idea of bowling in both centers, then it would be identical tournys two years in a row! What is the thoughts here?

The draw was redone due to Bairnsdale closure and thats the way it came out.
Grumpy

 

[ThEOnE]

Things about CCup that need to improve:
1. The format is too long unless the host centre is capable of playing both male and female side by side.
2. Not all centres are capable of laying patterns that would hold up longer than the current lineage situation (and to be honest, it is some people's opinion that not all are now - don't shoot me, just saying it out loud).
3. Not my words, but I have heard someone say there are too many teams. Anyone agree with this?
David

Good lets focus on just a few things.
One more option that could be looked at (AGAIN), is it viable to start the competition on Friday. I know it adds extra cost and all that but if we look at the fact if we start Friday afternoon say 2pm we can get 4 games in for the ladies and the men finishing at 10pm. This will knock off games from saturday and sunday, however we want to mix it up.
The major fact in this solution is that 99% of teams are already there Friday afternoon practicing. I believe very strongly about this tournament and this idea frees up alot of time to either have a get together or just finish earlier on monday?
What do you think as I will table this to our board to put forward if people are scared to stick there neck out?
Should a committe be established to make any decisions about the future of C/C or is this left to the VCTBA? I would be willing to stick my hand up to be on it or should the people come from the board?

 

[ThEOnE]

QUOTE=grumpie;180862]The draw was redone due to Bairnsdale closure and thats the way it came out.
Grumpy[/QUOTE]
Is it flexible, or able to be changed at a special meeting? Or is it rigid and stuck in mud like alot of people at the top?
Sorry another :bigwhack:

 

[OTB]

Should a committe be established to make any decisions about the future of C/C or is this left to the VCTBA? I would be willing to stick my hand up to be on it or should the people come from the board?

Jason
I honestly believe that with email making communication easy these days (most people on a board would have access to it), the choices would include that every centre/association could have a voice/representative in any sub-committee. This would avoid the situation of later teams saying we didnt have a voice.

I think there are many people suitable for such a committee, the VCTBA board would show leadership by chairing such a committee as well as choose a cross section of suitable people for the discussion group.

Cheers
David

 

[Gatsby]

Yeah right, Would be a better look though!
I was just wondering why we are going to Albury and Wodonga in consecutive years? Should it not be split by a few years in between. Just doesnt make much sense to me, especially if we end up playing the split idea of bowling in both centers, then it would be identical tournys two years in a row! What is the thoughts here?

According to the current rules, we are not going there in consecutive years
2009 - Albury
2010 - Sunraysia
2011 - Oven's & Murray (Wodonga)