COUNTRY CUP 2010

[ThEOnE]

why's that? its still the same associations represented, and a lot of bowlers have participated in junior country cups before moving onto adults.

Junior events have a capped participation time line, I will use myself here as an Example. When Junior C/C started I was 17, only got one year in it yet someone who was in the same tournament in the same year but is only 14 gets 4 years in the event. There will just never be a consistant factor in the junior event.
Does that make sense Tim?
I hope that has given you an idea of where we are coming from.

 

[Straight_kut]

I am not sure whether or not overall championship wins should be part of the criteria, is it part of the AFL criteria?

I dont think it should.. look at, as example Deano for instance, stacks of all stars, stacks of games and points etc but yet to have the trophy.. say he continues for another 10 years and never wins a trophy... (bloody hope thats not the case though!! )..

 

[GoTheCell]

It wont be the case because he is going to be with us when we win it in 2010!!!!

As much as I hate to say it though, Deano is a good example, and I am sure there are others.

 

[Deano]

Gary i never thought that would come out of your mouth. Miracles do happen

Deano

 

[MW]

Junior Country Cup is a tournament for juniors that is based on the same principle. I am not trying to make it sound in any way less important or anything but in reality it hasn't got anything to do with Country Cup.

The way I see it this is about performance and contributions to Country Cup, not Junior Country Cup, and any other tournament we can think of to add to the list. Do you think we should add Emerson performance and contributions as well because a lot of bowlers have bowled in that too?

I say leave it as Country Cup only and if any other tourneys want to do something along the same lines then good luck to them.

no i don't think we should include emerson as that is different centres involved, different format, etc... CC and JCC is exact same centres, same format.

Junior events have a capped participation time line, I will use myself here as an Example. When Junior C/C started I was 17, only got one year in it yet someone who was in the same tournament in the same year but is only 14 gets 4 years in the event. There will just never be a consistant factor in the junior event.
Does that make sense Tim?
I hope that has given you an idea of where we are coming from.

firstly Jase, its Mattie, not Tim. Secondly, I agree not everyone had the chance of bowling many junior country cups and i agree with your consistancy comment, but as JCC is exactly the same as Adults (except the age difference) something like that shouldn't be overlooked if theres talk of creating a CC hall of fame. To use myself as an example and some others. I participated in the first 6 Junior Country Cups, then followed that with 5 Adult Countrys Cups when i was old enough. Now i maybe wrong, but participating in 11 Country Cups, whether it be Junior or Adult, is large amount of participation in the event. Unfortunately i won't be in an Adult ones for numerous years as i've moved to a non-country area. Another example would be Kelly Jones. She bowled the first 7 Junior Country Cups, then i'm guessing roughly 7 or 8 Adults ones. Another one would be Tim Treloar, his combined Junior n Adult CC appearences would have to be over 10. I would be guessing theres prob a few others that may have done the same. I just don't think bowlers (or coaches/managers) contribution towards JCC should be not even considered.
Just my opinion

 

[Woza]

Quote:
Originally Posted by ThEOnE
I am not sure whether or not overall championship wins should be part of the criteria, is it part of the AFL criteria?

I dont think it should.. look at, as example Deano for instance, stacks of all stars, stacks of games and points etc but yet to have the trophy.. say he continues for another 10 years and never wins a trophy... (bloody hope thats not the case though!! )..

In the proposal it wont be part of the selection criteria - Use Kev as an example over 20 cups and before last year have never won a mens champions - some associations have never won at all - Alot of great AFL legends have never played in a grand final let alone a been in a premiership.

 

[Deano]

Yeah but Woza Kev's excuse is easy. It would take you 20 years just to feel confident wearing pink.

Deano

 

[ThEOnE]

no i don't think we should include emerson as that is different centres involved, different format, etc... CC and JCC is exact same centres, same format.



firstly Jase, its Mattie, not Tim. Secondly, I agree not everyone had the chance of bowling many junior country cups and i agree with your consistancy comment, but as JCC is exactly the same as Adults (except the age difference) something like that shouldn't be overlooked if theres talk of creating a CC hall of fame. To use myself as an example and some others. I participated in the first 6 Junior Country Cups, then followed that with 5 Adult Countrys Cups when i was old enough. Now i maybe wrong, but participating in 11 Country Cups, whether it be Junior or Adult, is large amount of participation in the event. Unfortunately i won't be in an Adult ones for numerous years as i've moved to a non-country area. Another example would be Kelly Jones. She bowled the first 7 Junior Country Cups, then i'm guessing roughly 7 or 8 Adults ones. Another one would be Tim Treloar, his combined Junior n Adult CC appearences would have to be over 10. I would be guessing theres prob a few others that may have done the same. I just don't think bowlers (or coaches/managers) contribution towards JCC should be not even considered.
Just my opinion

Never said I was very good at details!!!
With respect and no malice in my words, It will never be counted towards what we are proposing.

Yeah but Woza Kev's excuse is easy. It would take you 20 years just to feel confident wearing pink.

Deano

BAH hahahahahahahahahahaah Breath Hahahahahahahahaha

 

[GoTheCell]

no i don't think we should include emerson as that is different centres involved, different format, etc... CC and JCC is exact same centres, same format.

but as JCC is exactly the same as Adults (except the age difference) something like that shouldn't be overlooked if theres talk of creating a CC hall of fame. To use myself as an example and some others. I participated in the first 6 Junior Country Cups, then followed that with 5 Adult Countrys Cups when i was old enough. Now i maybe wrong, but participating in 11 Country Cups, whether it be Junior or Adult, is large amount of participation in the event. Unfortunately i won't be in an Adult ones for numerous years as i've moved to a non-country area. Another example would be Kelly Jones. She bowled the first 7 Junior Country Cups, then i'm guessing roughly 7 or 8 Adults ones. Another one would be Tim Treloar, his combined Junior n Adult CC appearences would have to be over 10. I would be guessing theres prob a few others that may have done the same. I just don't think bowlers (or coaches/managers) contribution towards JCC should be not even considered.
Just my opinion

The fact is, Junior Country Cup is NOT Country Cup, the same as Country Cup is NOT Junior Country Cup. They are 2 different events.

If you want the same thing for Junior Country Cup then create the same things for it. It should never (and hopefully never will be) included in any hall of fame etc for Country Cup.

By the look of things this is just about your combined total of 11 appearances between the 2 events and one of the criteria mentioned was 10 appearances in Country Cup. Get over it.

 

[OTB]

Mattie
I understand where you're coming from, to a bowler who's career has spanned the relevant years like yourself, Tim T, Kelly Jones and others, Junior Country Cup is relevant to your Country Cup career.

Here's my angle:
A Country Cup hall of fame is a way of giving recognition for continued excellence to those names who have given a lot to Country Cup, over a period of time.
A hall of fame sort of denotes many years of service (particularly as an athlete). I'll be the first to throw some names out there (these are just names, no particular order and they are not all recognition for competition).
Andrew Craig, David Napier, Merv Billing, Kevin Wilkins, Ian Poysor, David Whitham, Neil Thompson, Dean McKinnon, Wayne Mills, David Carmichael for the men.
Dot Diegan, Denece Jones, Kathy Smith, Denise Taffe, Viv Burl, Trish Beasley, Lisa Garioch, Sandra Le Page, Di Ryan, Lyn Plowright for the women.

These names are off the cuff, 10 men, 10 women, any serious conversation of a hall of fame HAS to include these people. Some of them still bowl and their age varies.

What I see as the issue with including Junior Country Cup was not everyone had the opportunity to bowl it, no doubt some would have racked up some awesome stats if they did. As someone said, if the other events have enough weight to support a hall of fame, then go for it. Fact is, Country Cup does have that scenario.

I am not trying to take anything away from Junior Country Cup, just saying it creates a grey area, any hall of fame will have grey areas anyway because selection can be subjective. If yearly inductees are limited to say 2 men 2 women, but 8 of each are nominated, there will always be varying opinions as to who the chosen few are. We don't need varying shades of grey.

By the Way, Bob Hinton bowled a lot, but how many events was he involved in where he didnt bowl? It would be a few wouldnt it?

Hope the concept gets legs, I think it is a great chance to honour some people who have made an annual event something special.

David

 

[MW]

By the look of things this is just about your combined total of 11 appearances between the 2 events and one of the criteria mentioned was 10 appearances in Country Cup. Get over it.

Sorry, its not meant to sound like it was about me, i think david has quoted right here with what i was trying to say

I understand where you're coming from, to a bowler who's career has spanned the relevant years like yourself, Tim T, Kelly Jones and others,Junior Country Cup is relevant to your Country Cup career.

 

[GoTheCell]

Just for the record, I am not saying Junior Country Cup is any less important than Country Cup or the other way around.

What I am saying is that they are completely seperate events and should remain so.

 

[GoTheCell]

If yearly inductees are limited to say 2 men 2 women, but 8 of each are nominated, there will always be varying opinions as to who the chosen few are. We don't need varying shades of grey.

If we have set criteria and 20 people meet it in a certain year then I can't see a reason why all 20 can't become part of it. Having set criteria should remove any grey areas if we work this out right.

 

[OTB]

If we have set criteria and 20 people meet it in a certain year then I can't see a reason why all 20 can't become part of it. Having set criteria should remove any grey areas if we work this out right.

I agree Gary.
I suppose it comes back to Jason's original question of who would pay for trophies/gifts for inductees.

 

[GoTheCell]

I had a thought on this.

If we allow say $70 per Hall of Fame award and $140 per Legend Award......$70 works out to $7 per association or 50 cents per person competing at CC, $140 works out to $14 per association or $1 per person. Surely with that sort of money we can arrange a decent award and keep them consistent. Even if we have 20 initial inductees then it is less than $20 each player competing. I'll pay that to get this up and running.

 

[Gatsby]

I had a thought on this.

If we allow say $70 per Hall of Fame award and $140 per Legend Award......$70 works out to $7 per association or 50 cents per person competing at CC, $140 works out to $14 per association or $1 per person. Surely with that sort of money we can arrange a decent award and keep them consistent. Even if we have 20 initial inductees then it is less than $20 each player competing. I'll pay that to get this up and running.

29 Years of Country Cup you are likely to have closer to 50 initial inductees for Hall of Fame (using the criteria 10 cups or more that has been quoted a couple of times in this thread)

 

[OTB]

29 Years of Country Cup you are likely to have closer to 50 initial inductees for Hall of Fame (using the criteria 10 cups or more that has been quoted a couple of times in this thread)

Can I play devil's advocate?

Is longevity and sheer volume of participation an adequate criteria to warrant hall of fame status? Should a bowler in particular have also achieved something at the higher end of the scale?

Longevity can entitle participants to life membership in some sporting arena's but would it qualify for hall of fame alone?

Just a thought.

 

[Straight_kut]

Can I play devil's advocate?

Is longevity and sheer volume of participation an adequate criteria to warrant hall of fame status? Should a bowler in particular have also achieved something at the higher end of the scale?

Longevity can entitle participants to life membership in some sporting arena's but would it qualify for hall of fame alone?

Just a thought.

I tend to agree with Dave here, just bowling in 10 or more c/cups to me doesn't warrant Hall of Fame..

Maybe if you are looking at just participation make it 25 yrs to get in, but to me that would be like a life membership (like in foofty clubs etc for long serving people) not necessarily Hall of Fame status...

Just my 2 cents.

 

[GoTheCell]

29 Years of Country Cup you are likely to have closer to 50 initial inductees for Hall of Fame (using the criteria 10 cups or more that has been quoted a couple of times in this thread)

Even with 50 initial inductees we would only be up for $25 each.

I also tend to agree with the majority recently. 10 CC's is probably not a good measure. 100 points won or something would be better.

 

[Gatsby]

A suggestion i have heard is >10 cups plus minimum of twice in the top 10 averages. That takes away the "just turning and bowling and getting into hall of fame"

Points are a bit hard to use as a criteria because there are no points records for about 12 of the 29 years. Plus winning a point in top spot or bottom spot is harder earned than in the middle.