Buying Direct from the USA
- Thread starter xcesiv
- Start date
Michael Little
Active Member
My thoughts on this would be that were I not to drill my own equipment, I would be wanting to visit my local knowledgeable proshop to get my equipment fitted and sorted properly. I still pay for associated accessories etc.
I can understand the point of view in terms of getting best value for money but as some guys who have and still do run proshops have pointed out, most rent space from the bowl they work in, have other associated costs that never disappear, so need to sell products and services accordingly to make some coin for themselves out of it. None of these guys should need to justify their pricing or services unless on a completely ridiculous level where they are gouging the customer. Proshops do need to be competitive but there is also a point where it just isnt worth doing, if too many shops close, who is going to be around drilling equipment? The backyard blokes with no real skill will pop up out of the woodwork and be a detriment to the industry.
Running and owning proshops here in Australia do not compare to some of the bigger places some may find in Asia, America and Europe, they dont do the high turnover of products punching out balls like a production line.
Also in regard to charging a higher price to drill a ball that isnt purchased in a shop, I think most people will find this to be the normal drilling price in most reputable proshops, the cheaper price that is included with drilling a ball bought within the proshop is really no different to a combo deal of sorts, which also means another avenue where the proshop operator may be initially losing out on some profits but also investing their money and knowledge into getting that customer to be loyal and return for business.
My 2c
I can understand the point of view in terms of getting best value for money but as some guys who have and still do run proshops have pointed out, most rent space from the bowl they work in, have other associated costs that never disappear, so need to sell products and services accordingly to make some coin for themselves out of it. None of these guys should need to justify their pricing or services unless on a completely ridiculous level where they are gouging the customer. Proshops do need to be competitive but there is also a point where it just isnt worth doing, if too many shops close, who is going to be around drilling equipment? The backyard blokes with no real skill will pop up out of the woodwork and be a detriment to the industry.
Running and owning proshops here in Australia do not compare to some of the bigger places some may find in Asia, America and Europe, they dont do the high turnover of products punching out balls like a production line.
Also in regard to charging a higher price to drill a ball that isnt purchased in a shop, I think most people will find this to be the normal drilling price in most reputable proshops, the cheaper price that is included with drilling a ball bought within the proshop is really no different to a combo deal of sorts, which also means another avenue where the proshop operator may be initially losing out on some profits but also investing their money and knowledge into getting that customer to be loyal and return for business.
My 2c
Frank Zippell
New Member
Anyone who takes any notice of purchasing trends can tell you that the internet market is growing at a phenomenal rate whilst the local markets shrink.
We may well not like it but, it's a fact.
Australia post profit down by 66%.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010/10/15/3039781.htm
The only thing keeping Australia Post profitable is it's parcel delivery division.
Current trends suggest that home delivery of letters will cease within 5 years.
Australia Post will still operate however there won't be any home delivery besides parcel delivery. Internet Emailing has all but devoured letters.
You would be crazy to touch an Australia Post franchise, they are doomed.
The internet can also claim victory over Newsagents, the newspaper and magazine market is slowly being consumed. Newsagents along with Post offices have become nothing but glorified knick knack shops.
What does this all mean?
If you are in the retail trade and your product is a global product you need to adapt or abandon your business plan. You can't and won't survive into the future.
Whilst the government taxes legitimate business operators with 10% GST and allows internet purchasing under $1000 into the country tax free we will continue to see the slow demise of local retail, big and small, particularly the specialist operator whom survive on a very small share of the market.
I agree with the Casual Observer, it's human nature to seek out the best deal, if that best deal is to purchase your product via the internet, then that is what will happen.
You can't fight human nature.
For the Pro-shop operator, start factoring into your business forecast a downturn in ball sales and perhaps an increase in ball drilling sales? Whatever it may be, you need to make changes if you are to remain profitable.
We may well not like it but, it's a fact.
Australia post profit down by 66%.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010/10/15/3039781.htm
The only thing keeping Australia Post profitable is it's parcel delivery division.
Current trends suggest that home delivery of letters will cease within 5 years.
Australia Post will still operate however there won't be any home delivery besides parcel delivery. Internet Emailing has all but devoured letters.
You would be crazy to touch an Australia Post franchise, they are doomed.
The internet can also claim victory over Newsagents, the newspaper and magazine market is slowly being consumed. Newsagents along with Post offices have become nothing but glorified knick knack shops.
What does this all mean?
If you are in the retail trade and your product is a global product you need to adapt or abandon your business plan. You can't and won't survive into the future.
Whilst the government taxes legitimate business operators with 10% GST and allows internet purchasing under $1000 into the country tax free we will continue to see the slow demise of local retail, big and small, particularly the specialist operator whom survive on a very small share of the market.
I agree with the Casual Observer, it's human nature to seek out the best deal, if that best deal is to purchase your product via the internet, then that is what will happen.
You can't fight human nature.
For the Pro-shop operator, start factoring into your business forecast a downturn in ball sales and perhaps an increase in ball drilling sales? Whatever it may be, you need to make changes if you are to remain profitable.
G'Day Frank,
Thank you. I have been saying the same thing for years.
If it fits in a box, then sell it online. Every shop has that right. If you need a web site email me and I will give you the advice you require.
The things that don't fit in a box, like drilling etc sell at full price from your shop.
The future is here and has been for more than 15 years.
Thank you. I have been saying the same thing for years.
If it fits in a box, then sell it online. Every shop has that right. If you need a web site email me and I will give you the advice you require.
The things that don't fit in a box, like drilling etc sell at full price from your shop.
The future is here and has been for more than 15 years.
jason_doust
The Bowling Geek
Good for you. People should follow the best deal, because a good deal is about a lot more than the price.
If the ball comes with no warranty, it lessens the value of the deal.
If the ball is selected with little knowledge of what's in the market and desired reaction, it's a bad deal.
If the ball isn't laid out properly (not just the uneducated "put the pin here and the MB here" voodoo layout, but properly mapped to your PAP and carefully laid out), it's a bad deal.
If the customer isn't measured very carefully, with multiple aspects of their current grip and any existing conditions discussed, it's a bad deal.
If the ball isn't carefully drilled, or better, milled to precise specifications, it's a bad deal.
If the ball reaction is not what you wanted, it's a bad deal.
If the ball doesn't fit, it's a very bad deal.
And I see lots of bad deals hurting people's hands out there. (Jeez, I even saved a woman from needing surgery a couple of years ago! Her Orthopedic Surgeon was amazed.)
This all takes education, commitment, time and very good equipment. I work on 60-90 minutes for a first ball. Around 30-45 for each one after. This allows time to get the customer fitted, their desired reaction worked out, the ball mapped, laid out and milled with oval holes precisely, then the holes finished to get the kind of fit I'd be happy with for me. You get nothing less than I'd settle for. That's my standard.
A good deal comes from all aspects being considered and covered. This will almost never be the cheapest deal.
Quality is remembered when price is forgotten and if all an operator has to work with is price, then look very closely for what's missing. Actually think about it.
Don't ask me to compete on price with some of the rough as guts operators I see out there. And don't confuse ripping people off with providing exemplary work for a reasonable price. I work on a basis of providing great value, not cheap crap.
Jason
jason_doust
The Bowling Geek
When I see good operators missing out on sales because they are $10-15 over some guy who'll drill the ball on a timber workshop grade press with a wobbly cheap jig in 10 minutes, that's when I get cranky on their behalf.
There are some very uninformed, even ill-informed, short-sighted, cheap, cheap people out there. And they honestly expect you to come down to their level. I feel sorry for them as it's a classic case of "You don't know what you don't know until you know."
Then there are some people who have done the sums and worked out that they can get a good operator to;
Put it all together and that's a good deal!
To the solely price-conscious, I ask that you consider the benefits of a better level of service that a reputable pro shop offers. It doesn't cost much and you will enjoy it for a long time. To my wonderful loyal customers, I thank you for having made the effort to have thought it through.
There are some very uninformed, even ill-informed, short-sighted, cheap, cheap people out there. And they honestly expect you to come down to their level. I feel sorry for them as it's a classic case of "You don't know what you don't know until you know."
Then there are some people who have done the sums and worked out that they can get a good operator to;
- recommend a good ball,
- order the right pin and TW,
- adjust the surface (if need be)
- do a good job,
- be in the market price range,
- have it work first go (or at least be cheerfully adjusted if need be)
- and do no more than pick up the phone once to enquire and once more when they're called back when it's in.
Put it all together and that's a good deal!
To the solely price-conscious, I ask that you consider the benefits of a better level of service that a reputable pro shop offers. It doesn't cost much and you will enjoy it for a long time. To my wonderful loyal customers, I thank you for having made the effort to have thought it through.
Toon
OWN IT!
As usual. You are dead right there. You need to consider all those factors.
For me and my latest purchase
I was quoted $360 for a Brunswick C System 4.5 including shipping. 3 week wait for arrive.
From Bowling Ball.com
C System 4.5 $95 on sale
Ball Insurance $5
Ball warranty $10
Shipping $120
$230 + $55 for drilling.
Arrives in 1 week. Saved $75 on just one item.
Bought many balls from them and have never done me wrong.
For me and my latest purchase
I was quoted $360 for a Brunswick C System 4.5 including shipping. 3 week wait for arrive.
From Bowling Ball.com
C System 4.5 $95 on sale
Ball Insurance $5
Ball warranty $10
Shipping $120
$230 + $55 for drilling.
Arrives in 1 week. Saved $75 on just one item.
Bought many balls from them and have never done me wrong.
Phluff
Member
Personally I think being able to purchase online adds another valuable resource to the Australian bowler. I think local pro shops should accept this and work with it.
But having said that, my message to pro-shops out there is this:
Increase your drilling prices. The $50 quoted by many people here just isn't going to cut it anymore. For a ball purchased outside of your shop, you should be charging at least $75 for drilling + $25 for inserts/solids. Your time as a driller is valuable and you're selling yourself short.
Using the example from the post above me:
C System 4.5 $95 on sale
Ball Insurance $5
Ball warranty $10
Shipping $120
But then add
Drilling $75
Inserts/Solids $25
TOTAL= $330
That's much more in line with what local pro-shops are charging, so the bowler can now happily go local. If they still decide they want to go online because they want it quicker or a ball that you can't find here, that's fine because you're still making a living on the drilling.
But having said that, my message to pro-shops out there is this:
Increase your drilling prices. The $50 quoted by many people here just isn't going to cut it anymore. For a ball purchased outside of your shop, you should be charging at least $75 for drilling + $25 for inserts/solids. Your time as a driller is valuable and you're selling yourself short.
Using the example from the post above me:
C System 4.5 $95 on sale
Ball Insurance $5
Ball warranty $10
Shipping $120
But then add
Drilling $75
Inserts/Solids $25
TOTAL= $330
That's much more in line with what local pro-shops are charging, so the bowler can now happily go local. If they still decide they want to go online because they want it quicker or a ball that you can't find here, that's fine because you're still making a living on the drilling.
From an overseas supplier I like to see how, if required:
goes.
For a quality fit and drill $75 is still too cheap.
If the pro-shop takes the time and the driller is certified with the TBA and using a quality mill it should cost more.
Are the three holes anywhere Pro-Shop owner the bigger issue?
Toon
OWN IT!
That's a good point, John.
I have been to some pro shops in Brisbane where they have a surcharge for balls bought elsewhere.
Which is fine.
The centre up here charges $55 for drilling of any ball and it is easily the best drilling ive ever had.
But in the case here, the bowlers that order ball after ball is very slim. Probably only a few in the state, if they increased the prices, they wouldn't get any business.
I have been to some pro shops in Brisbane where they have a surcharge for balls bought elsewhere.
Which is fine.
The centre up here charges $55 for drilling of any ball and it is easily the best drilling ive ever had.
But in the case here, the bowlers that order ball after ball is very slim. Probably only a few in the state, if they increased the prices, they wouldn't get any business.
jason_doust
The Bowling Geek
Phluff is on the money. It used to cost $50 for a ball drilling with slug and grips in 1989, for goodness sakes, when an average house in Western Sydney was 100,000. That house is $500,000 now.
$55 is way too cheap for good work. Especially if you're in a capital city and your cost of living is higher. OK if you're getting 20 mins start to round thumb hole 80 grit finish I guess. I can see why there's so many oversized round, over-bevelled thumbs and illegal grips poking out of balls if people are going this cheap. You can't allocate enough time to do the job properly at meatball surgery rates.
I charge $80 including inserts and solid, as my costs are lower than many. It's pretty good value when you're getting my experience, knowledge and absolute attention for an hour or more and the use of about $15K worth of precision equipment in my pro shop and follow up if required. I'm looking at putting that price up if things keep going this way though. I know other places are up to $100 for an outside ball now. Fair enough too. Either that or just drill my own gear.
Our ability to fit and drill a ball has come a long way since the 80's. If people are happy with 80's standard work at cheap prices, then that's great. Just don't get on here and moan about how other places do better work and charge for it. It's like those sad people who reckon that their old Holden is just like the new Mercedes next to it in traffic. You know the drivel; "It's got four wheels and a motor..." Sure does. And that's about where the similarities end. Well it's the same in an excellent fit and layout of a ball.
I sincerely doubt I'd get the rack drilling rate on a ball from bowlingball.com if I sent them my sheet and layout request. Dual angle layout, tiered oval thumb in a clear slug (harder to drill, better finish with the right tools though) with Dremel shaping, oval fingers, finished three ways until polished with microfine scotch brite and silicone polished? I don't think so. That's real work.
You get what you pay for.
$55 is way too cheap for good work. Especially if you're in a capital city and your cost of living is higher. OK if you're getting 20 mins start to round thumb hole 80 grit finish I guess. I can see why there's so many oversized round, over-bevelled thumbs and illegal grips poking out of balls if people are going this cheap. You can't allocate enough time to do the job properly at meatball surgery rates.
I charge $80 including inserts and solid, as my costs are lower than many. It's pretty good value when you're getting my experience, knowledge and absolute attention for an hour or more and the use of about $15K worth of precision equipment in my pro shop and follow up if required. I'm looking at putting that price up if things keep going this way though. I know other places are up to $100 for an outside ball now. Fair enough too. Either that or just drill my own gear.
Our ability to fit and drill a ball has come a long way since the 80's. If people are happy with 80's standard work at cheap prices, then that's great. Just don't get on here and moan about how other places do better work and charge for it. It's like those sad people who reckon that their old Holden is just like the new Mercedes next to it in traffic. You know the drivel; "It's got four wheels and a motor..." Sure does. And that's about where the similarities end. Well it's the same in an excellent fit and layout of a ball.
I sincerely doubt I'd get the rack drilling rate on a ball from bowlingball.com if I sent them my sheet and layout request. Dual angle layout, tiered oval thumb in a clear slug (harder to drill, better finish with the right tools though) with Dremel shaping, oval fingers, finished three ways until polished with microfine scotch brite and silicone polished? I don't think so. That's real work.
You get what you pay for.
Couldn't agree more Jason.
While some proshops can't compete with prices on gear, it MAY be more than made up with the quality of service.
That was one thing I used to pride myself in... Quality of fit, surface adjustments, answer any amount of questions ect to make the customer as happy as possible.
While some proshops can't compete with prices on gear, it MAY be more than made up with the quality of service.
That was one thing I used to pride myself in... Quality of fit, surface adjustments, answer any amount of questions ect to make the customer as happy as possible.
Frank Zippell
New Member
Jason,
Some of your points are indeed valid and should be considered by the purchaser.
However, the majority of your points do not relate directly to purchasing a ball but rather they are aimed at the drilling aspects of the ball purchase exercise.
An astute purchaser can, will and they are breaking these two aspects of the ball purchase exercise into two distinct sales.
If you still believe the ball purchase and the ball drilling sales are eternally linked, you may need to update your business plan and objectives to meet the 21st Century market.
As a small business operator, I don't understand why you are trying to fight human nature. Would it not be a wise choice to greet this change in the market/buying trend with open arms rather than take your stance with crossed arms in defiance?
What would have happened to your pro-shop had you applied this same out dated business stance to drilling resin balls? "I'm not going to drill resin balls because I think everyone should be using plastic!" How many ball drilling sales would you now be losing?
I understand that your pro-shop may cater for the top of the range professional bowler who desires the latest technology and a perfect fit. Your service maybe top shelf stuff deserving of extra charges? maybe it's overpriced and wrapped up in technical jargon incomprehensible for the low to medium bowler? I don't know?
I do know that your business plan needs to adapt and your objectives need a re-think.
Best of Luck with whatever you decide to do.
Brenton_Davy
900Global bowler
I have read through this thread and the topic comes down to this.
You want the best service, fit and advice - you pay for it! If you are willing to accept less than the best service, fit and advice, then you get what you pay for. The years, money and research I have poured into learning and keeping abreast of the latest equipment, drilling and fitting advances come at a cost to the customer. I, for one, refuse to get drawn into a "lowest common denominator" type discount spiral. Certainly my regular customers get some degree of "consideration" but until a customer becomes a regular, then I have to stick to my guns because if I don't put a premium value on my time and expertise, then no-one else will.
The odd part about this topic is that many keen golfers will spend a fortune on getting their golf clubs custom fitted, but many bowlers will penny pinch when it comes to the fit of their bowling ball. A poor fit of a bowling balls will do a lot more damage and have a greater adverse performance effect than poorly fitted golf clubs, yet it seems that the reverse psychology applies to the customers. Odd........
You want the best service, fit and advice - you pay for it! If you are willing to accept less than the best service, fit and advice, then you get what you pay for. The years, money and research I have poured into learning and keeping abreast of the latest equipment, drilling and fitting advances come at a cost to the customer. I, for one, refuse to get drawn into a "lowest common denominator" type discount spiral. Certainly my regular customers get some degree of "consideration" but until a customer becomes a regular, then I have to stick to my guns because if I don't put a premium value on my time and expertise, then no-one else will.
The odd part about this topic is that many keen golfers will spend a fortune on getting their golf clubs custom fitted, but many bowlers will penny pinch when it comes to the fit of their bowling ball. A poor fit of a bowling balls will do a lot more damage and have a greater adverse performance effect than poorly fitted golf clubs, yet it seems that the reverse psychology applies to the customers. Odd........
I don't think people will complain about paying good money for a properly laid out ball with the correct fit. But wouldn't pro shops all benefit from more people buying balls from the U.S for cheaper...
How and why is this bad?... The more people bring in is bringing business to the pro shops...
With the rapid expansion of Internet sales and again eBay and the attractive value of the Aussie dollar, couple this with some pro shops huge mark up values it was only a matter of time before people got smarter and looked for other means of sourcing equipment.
How and why is this bad?... The more people bring in is bringing business to the pro shops...
With the rapid expansion of Internet sales and again eBay and the attractive value of the Aussie dollar, couple this with some pro shops huge mark up values it was only a matter of time before people got smarter and looked for other means of sourcing equipment.
Frank Zippell
New Member
I don't believe anyone is disputing the cost of a top notch drilling service. It is the actual ball sale that is the topic of debate. Or rather, it's the pro-shop operators opposition to a customer purchasing a ball elsewhere other than their shop.
amagill
Active Member
I've been buying my bowling balls on line from bowlingball.com for a few years now, I have always & still do, go to my preferred driller. He hasn't had an issue with me buying my gear on line & getting him to drill & layout my gear, as I am still paying him for his time & expertise. As someone else pointed out above, Pro Shops should embrace this, more & more people will buy online in years to come, and if pro shop operators start adding excessive surcharges for balls bought on line, then people will find someone who doesn't care where the ball came from, to drill it.
Toon
OWN IT!
+1.
I am not discrediting any drilling experience. In fact, my ball driller doesn't operate a proshop. Just drills balls for the local centre. By far the best I have had. If the price were increased I would still pay for it.
The real topic here is that with todays market prices you can buy 3 top end balls from the states, add shipping then get it drilled by anyone in the country and still be under the cost of buying 2 balls through the local pro shop.
I got a new ball drilled yesterday and whilst it was being drilled, I was told I'd be crazy not to buy from the US.
I am not discrediting any drilling experience. In fact, my ball driller doesn't operate a proshop. Just drills balls for the local centre. By far the best I have had. If the price were increased I would still pay for it.
The real topic here is that with todays market prices you can buy 3 top end balls from the states, add shipping then get it drilled by anyone in the country and still be under the cost of buying 2 balls through the local pro shop.
I got a new ball drilled yesterday and whilst it was being drilled, I was told I'd be crazy not to buy from the US.
