Australian Masters : SUCCESS or FAILURE

[jimcross]

Adrian,



It is time for our hands to go up to assist. It is time for positive Comment on ALL Aspects of our Sport.. Lets really give this a full on 100% go... Lets see were the new formed association with AMF and their push for membership in there centers can take our sport. Lets not second guess there motivates on why they invested 100K in the masters Or how that Arrangement was done.. But rather Lets Applaud the Effort of perhaps two of the major Players in our sport getting on with the job.

Morty

I am just going to take some more Positive Pills Right Now...

I must be losing the art of communication. To ask questions, to seek answers is NOT, got that - NOT, being negative.
It merely makes commercial and long-term sense, when dealing with people and organisations to carry out 'due diligence'. If you've got nothing hidden behind your back, and neither have those you're entering into an association with, you will both benifit from the knowledge and openness and trust engendered.
I'm NOT saying that this is not exactly what's happening, but I don't KNOW.
So, I'm asking questions, and - yes - advising caution.
There is NO REASON to abandon due diligence, Morty, or to not have a clear understanding of motivations, because of money. Regardless of the amount.
Any organisation you're dealing with should have no problem with that, any more than you would have a problem with their questions to you.


The following is from an earlier post on another thread. I meant it then. I mean it now.




Re: Thankyou AMF


People, TBA, everyone - please be careful - take a deep breath, etc.

In the wake of something so obviously successful, in what was an ideal centre, whose staff exceeded all expectations, with the TBA people likewise, even before we move to the accomodation, the RSL, and the other on-site facilities, - Why wouldn't everyone be enthusiastic?

Oh, and I forgot the MONEY. How could I forget THE MONEY?

Still, in the overall national long term interest of the sport ( for which to survive and prosper the 'entertainment' side must prosper), and centres need to be distributed all around the country, it is legitimate to very carefully weigh up the States interests, for both equity and cohesive reasons.

It is also, I believe, proper to be mindful of what percentage of our sporting players, from leagues upward, are catered for by independent centres, most of whom belong to ABPA.

All I'm saying is, don't rush to judgment.

Some other sports organisations have run into difficulties, as a result of being over reliant on one sectional interest or party, others have benifitted.

Just let's slow down a bit, huh?

 

[gwhiting]

Actually no one on here can vote either way on this poll because none of us are privy to the finances of TBA.

 

[Geoff300]

I would rank it as a success for a fledgling event of this caliber in Australia. Could more have been done, for sure, I think a lot more promotion wise could have been done for the event, am not sure what plans they had in place but from early on it was known mens bowlers from around the world wouldnt be attending, so possible promotion down that path wasnt possible.

Wayne may have a valid point (just said again in a way to try and be controversial) in terms of financial success but I highly doubt that in reality AMF would have taken that big a hit on this event, I wouldnt be surprised if they made money and good on them if they did.

I would say if they got 3000 entries, that is a success in entries, cant recall a nationals attracting that much interest and entries.

Could the money have been used elsewhere, well for what? To support a tournament circuit that hardly anyone bothers to support or lump all that money into one big tournament and get the countries best and some of OS best bowlers to attend. It isnt AMFs role to create more numbers in the sport but events like this can certainly help if done right.

What does the average league bowler get out of any tournaments held anywhere unless they are locals and have a crack, what do social bowlers get out of tournaments? It doesnt matter if AMF sink this money into 10 different tournaments or one, either way it only affects regular tournament bowlers. League bowlers are the bread and butter of centres but not the sport unless they are looking to increase their skills and take the next step towards tournaments, social bowlers are there for recreation and dont see the game as a sport, so really the direction bowling should always be taking is to get those average league bowlers more interested in the tournament scene, more interested in increasing their skills and understanding of the game and also trying to change the average publics perception of the sport as a whole. A tournament like this can help do that with the right promotion, how many other sports on a local level like this have that sort of prizemoney attached to it for a national title? That sort of money might change peoples perspectives.

As for this tournament being affordable to enter, I thought that it was, entries were 35 each, i entered 7 events in total plus all events, then masters entry fee, a couple of nights accom worked cheap enough a night staying with a group, plus a bit of food and it worked out to about the same as attending a normal tournament. I drove back and forth a couple of times as it was fortunately in the same state.

And yes 5000 bowlers might only be a small part of the total bowling community, but the tournament scene is even less than that, so to attract so many entries from all grades, groups and states in one place over 3 weeks is a pretty big effort. Now hopefully AMF will continue their support and the event can be an even bigger success next year.

Hey Michael

Well said, 100%

Some people should remain casual observers

 

[Morty]

Wow, Ok What I am saying is that don't sit back. Put your hand up and Assist. Let me ask you a Question Jim? Are you involved in your local or state association? Have you contacted TBA and Asked about being involved on a Committee that Makes these Decisions. Before you jump on me, I am not for one minute suggesting that if you are not then your aurguements are invalid what I am saying is get involved help make a Difference.... I am no way suggesting that Due dilegnece not be undertaken, however Do you have information that it was not? Are you aware of the months of Preparation that it takes to arrange and orgainise the Nationals. The amount of communication that takes place to get this arranged... What I am suggesting is that there are ways to become involved and assist in making these decisions and Improving the communication flow.



GWhiting, I am not 100% sure but i think that Financial Yearly reports are produced by TBA each Year....

And everyone can can vote.

So once again I say Stand up get involved Support what is happening don't go blindly as Jim thought I have Suggested but move forward with your eyes open on the possiblities of what could happen if our sport was to grow positively and even an additional 2% of members assisted at either local state or National Level.

My Thoughts Only..

 

[Geoff300]

Let's see...with over 90% of the readers voting for POSITIVE. I'd have to say that the negative talk to which you allude is pretty insignificant.

The bowlers who competed in the Australian Masters has given it a resounding vote of support. I have no complaint about the tournament, the host centre, the sponsors, the scores, format or all the hard work that went into making the event a bowling success.

My only concern is that it was not a financial success in any way, shape or manner. AMF poured heaps of cash into this event, and in time we'll know whether or not it was a success from their perspective. If AMF is looking to ensure the future of bowling then they'll continue their generous financial support of the Australian Masters. iI they were looking at it as a money making opportunity in the short run, then it's highly unlikely that they'll be putting anywhere near $100,000 into next year's event.

Wayne

If that is your only argument then it is not worth talking about
The reason for that is , It is none of your buisness what AMF or any other Sponsor does with their money

I was there on and off for the 3 weeks and it was brilliant

Can you find something else to complain about , maybe
Deck chairs on a cruise ship or something that will not
have a negative on a positive

 

[willey]

Geoff, Wayne is not complaining, he is concerned about the level of money AMF threw at this Tournament. His concern is, if AMF decides it was a great big waste of money, than next year they are likely to drop it to say 25 thousand, than the following year 5 thousand, Guess what then we are back to the reasons the Grand Prix's and all other Tournaments collapsed, due to lack of a decent Prize Fund.

This also concerns me, I would start to Bowl again if the Prize Money was good.

I'm sure the 100 Thousand that AMF put up was only the Tip if the Iceburg, people like Mackie would not come out here for Love, as well as the American Pro's.

willey

 

[willey]

Morty, brings up a very important request, for the Centres to increase the Memberships in their Leagues to follow up the High of the Nationals. Unfortunately, as I have worked in Bowling Centres for over 38 years I can tell him that the Demise of the Membership drive went, when it was ruled that No Person working in a Bowling Centre, was allowed to be a Delegate of an Association, It was all Downhill from there. Before that decision all Managers were delegates, so they automatically had all Leagues signed up as Members, afterwards they couldn't care less.

willey

 

[Morty]

Hi Willey,

I am not aware of that Rule In Fact I am not only a Delegate of My Local Association but the Vice President. I also Hold a Position at State level? Sure that is just not a local rule in your Area?

Cheers

Morty

 

[jimcross]

Wow, Ok What I am saying is that don't sit back. Put your hand up and Assist. Let me ask you a Question Jim? Are you involved in your local or state association? Have you contacted TBA and Asked about being involved on a Committee that Makes these Decisions. Before you jump on me, I am not for one minute suggesting that if you are not then your aurguements are invalid what I am saying is get involved help make a Difference....

I am no way suggesting that Due dilegnece not be undertaken, however Do you have information that it was not? Are you aware of the months of Preparation that it takes to arrange and orgainise the Nationals. The amount of communication that takes place to get this arranged... What I am suggesting is that there are ways to become involved and assist in making these decisions and Improving the communication flow.

I have a terrible feeling that I'm wasting my time continuing with this. I'm not looking at this as a debate to earn points. I'm saying do things from a business like standpoint, not an emotive or 'feelgood' one. Don't look back later and say -'Gee, if only we had....etc.'

As it happens, I think that the people in decision making roles in TBA, are very likely to agree with me, and would be fairly unlikely to react like this :- " $110,000 does it for me. If they put that sort of moneyup they can call it whtever they like." There has been a few responses along those lines during the various threads since the Nationals, and a lot of others less extreme, but essentially just saying "let's just lie back and enjoy it." "she'll be right, mate." etc.and suggesting that those of us whos rose-tinted glasses got stolen years ago should be banned from talking.

To your questions :-
[/B] Let me ask you a Question Jim? Are you involved in your local or state association? Have you contacted TBA and Asked about being involved on a Committee that Makes these Decisions. Before you jump on me, I am not for one minute suggesting that if you are not then your aurguements are invalid what I am saying is get involved help make a Difference....[/B]

No, not involved in Association, etc. Was involved with ATBC Association - delegate to ATBC AGM, etc.
Heavily involved during formation of TBA, at considerable personal expense. I produced the first draft of the TBA Constitution and By-laws, following a meeting in Sydney where a series of workshops decided how the structure and operations of TBA should proceed. I produced the original document which converted these ideas and decisions to a formal structure. A sub-committee with two others then refined that, over several meetings, for final approval and registration.

I am no way suggesting that Due dilegnece not be undertaken, however Do you have information that it was not?

Please read what I said in my last post, on this specific point. Here it is again ( quote ) "I'm NOT saying that this is not exactly what's happening, but I don't KNOW."

Are you aware of the months of Preparation that it takes to arrange and orgainise the Nationals. The amount of communication that takes place to get this arranged... What I am suggesting is that there are ways to become involved and assist in making these decisions and Improving the communication flow.

Yes, Yes and Yes. I have been involved ( and worked for ) organisations engaged in these types of situations.
Am I likely to get involved again? No, not really. Anyone asking for my help, if I can assist - I do, but that's it.

One little thing, TBA needs money. Money of it's own, that is. Not just grants, sponsorships et al. It's own financial base.
There's only two places really as a source for these types of funds, and only one that all the people on this forum who say they want to help, can assist with,and that's membership.

I have recently taken out a Silver Membership with TBA. I doubt that I'll get to need a Silver Membership for anything I'm likely to bowl in, so It's a bit of a donation.

So, those of you who are urging me not to be negative, here's your chance to demonstrate your positiveness. NOBODY take out just a league membership... Go buy a Silver one.

 

[Geoff300]

Geoff, Wayne is not complaining, he is concerned about the level of money AMF threw at this Tournament. His concern is, if AMF decides it was a great big waste of money, than next year they are likely to drop it to say 25 thousand, than the following year 5 thousand, Guess what then we are back to the reasons the Grand Prix's and all other Tournaments collapsed, due to lack of a decent Prize Fund.

This also concerns me, I would start to Bowl again if the Prize Money was good.

I'm sure the 100 Thousand that AMF put up was only the Tip if the Iceburg, people like Mackie would not come out here for Love, as well as the American Pro's.

willey

Well Seve Mackie came out here partly for love because of his wife Dana and the chance to win the money

Part of the reason the Grand Prix collapsed was people stopped bowling in the tourn, so Chicken or egg issue again

AMF threw the money , as you put it, at the Tourn because AMF
did due diligence and decided it was a good idea and investment given the expectation of extra entries, which they got and the joint venture they have with Rooty Hill RSL and Hotel and they are trying to move into a better relationship with TBA

Could the money have been split up into several Tourn , yes it could
but they chose another option

It is all a negative sillly discussion really

 

[Casual Observer]

Actually no one on here can vote either way on this poll because none of us are privy to the finances of TBA.

Nope, noone knows how it works and noone has enough brain power to work it out roughly.

I would like to know where I have said the Nationals or the Masters were bad.

Oh, that's right. I haven't. It is just the usual "jump on anyone who says anything or offers a suggestion" mentality.

As for the people who suggested banning people because they have a different opinion...... that says enough by itself.

 

[Morty]

Hi Jim,

I don't know you so I had to ask a Couple of questions to get some idea of where you were coming from there was not disrespect intended. It looks like you have heaps of experience based on your brief resume posted above. Are you wasting your time no not really healthy discussion is good for everyone. HOWEVER i will as again ask if you are so positive that i am only looking through Rose colored glasses and only considering that things where done correctly, What makes your following statement any more or less accurate.

" I'm saying do things from a business like standpoint, not an emotive or 'feel good' one. Don't look back later and say -'Gee, if only we had....etc.'"

" I'm NOT saying that this is not exactly what's happening, but I don't KNOW."

I am just stating that perhaps we should give the people that we have entrusted in the positions the benefit of the doubt that they acted in a business like manner.

It is just a thought...

Cheers


Morty

 

[bluey]

Hi Jim, as a participant from the Nationals l can wholeheartedly say that l thought it was a success. I, nor many others on this site could comment on whether it was a success in the eyes of TBA/AMF. From a bowlers perspective is all l can give you, but l will say that AMF is a multi million dollar company that probably did a little bit of planning considering this prize money was announced 12months earlier at Rachuig dinner by the CEO of TBA. If people want to whinge about the sport being divided why don't you have a good look at the offshoot associations taking members at a cheaper rate! It's no secret that Cara is working her but off trying to bring everyone under one banner, the National one. If we as bowlers truly want to do something for the sport then get behind TBA, buy a membership for a whopping $27.50 per year and make the sport strong with numbers. The saving of going with the offshoot association is about $15 PER YEAR!!!!! Sorry, getting off topic a little but ask yourself this January, do l need to save $1.25 per month, or can l do my bit and join the National body?

 

[jimcross]

Bluey and Morty,
Morty, I don't see disrespect where there is none. Don't worry about it. Ypu're looking at my notes as if I'm addressing only what you have said... Not so. My remarks about business like motives , emotive and feel good, come from a great many of the posts by a variety of people. I'm talking to them. I'm saying generally, that seeking answers or information is not negativity.
Oh, and Morty. I do have reasonable faith in our TBA ppl in these responsible positions, in the making of decisions. I said that they were likely to agree with me rather than with the 'feelgooders.'

Bluey, I think there can be no doubt of the success of the Nats from a bowlers point of view. Wish I'd been there.
I've not heard even one complaint, either from this forum or ppl that were there.

Must admit that I know nothing at all about these 'offshoot' associations, as you call them. I have heard them mentioned in passing only.
What the bloody hell do they think they're accomplishing?? TBA is too small as a National Sporting Body at full strength to have the influence we would like and need.
Splinter Groups? What sort of official ( Government ) recognition do they get - if any?

 

[willey]

Morty, I don't know about the rest of Australia but it certainly happened in Sydney in the 70's.

willey

 

[Michael Little]

Nope, noone knows how it works and noone has enough brain power to work it out roughly.

I would like to know where I have said the Nationals or the Masters were bad.

Oh, that's right. I haven't. It is just the usual "jump on anyone who says anything or offers a suggestion" mentality.

As for the people who suggested banning people because they have a different opinion...... that says enough by itself.

I think TBA financials are made available through the annual AGM, however I would suggest there are probably a few people who know how it works. Not really sure what relevance it is to this discussion.

And no you never said the nationals or masters as an event were bad, I think you thought it was good, however you did say it was a failure in terms of getting new bowlers through the doors and promoting the sport, after almost two weeks since the finish, how is that possible to know? I agree however, that more could have been done to promote and present the nationals on a whole, media, nationwide promotion in all centres, not just AMF. What is your suggestion to get extra numbers interested in the sport?

AMF and the TBA did announce this decision last year, it was a decision to stop the funding spread out amongst the regular tournaments and sink it into one major event. Obviously the idea was to have a big showcase event. Within the bowling world, it worked, outside of the bowling world, probably not so much, but in all reality with people including yourself questioning was it worth the money for this one event? I guess you have to weigh that up against spreading it back out between the yearly tournaments and how successful they were in promoting the sport to the general public on their own.

Take a current case in point, unless you have a genuine interest in golf, like we do with tenpin, how many people actually care that Tiger Woods is here promoting the sport in Melbourne away from joe public in say Perth?

I think in terms of promoting the sport, this one event with its mountain of money has a better chance of promoting the sport to the general public than a group of tournaments throughout the year that were badly promoted and organised to begin with. The reason being, easier to focus on this one tournament and attach the showcase word to it. Easier to promote to media, joe public, etc. Hopefully the financial support from AMF will continue and the promotion can be increased ten fold next time around to ensure it is a lot more successful in terms of increasing numbers through the doors.

And I agree, suggesting to ban people from the site isnt right for expressing an opinion however not being constructive, being negative or expressing opinions or making comments to be controversial doesn't exactly do the sport any favours. And I dont think anyone is jumping down your throat for saying anything or making a suggestion, because there wasn't one?

 

[da_cowman]

iI they were looking at it as a money making opportunity in the short run, then it's highly unlikely that they'll be putting anywhere near $100,000 into next year's event.

AMF is under a a very big corporations umbrella now. No marketing employee would ever suggest that throwing $100,000 into our market would result in short term Money making, and a CEO that would agree would be even worse. Honestly... Sometimes, I wonder just how bad you look for a reaction.

Was the Nationals success? Potentially. It was great to bowl in and was great to watch. Why do we have to give an answer now? Let's see what AMF does for it next year. Ideally, they start to attract some help from other sponsors to further boost the prize fund. We made a splash on the world scene, people from all over the world knew it was on. Next year, hopefully avoiding major clashes like this time, we attract a bigger and more diverse field. Then we can look back at this nationals and decide whether it was a success.

Cheers, Cow

 

[willey]

Geoff 300, in the 1980's first prize in a Grand Prix event was about $1200.00, in the late 90's first prize in a Grand Prix was about $1200.00, and the entry fee was higher.

willey

 

[Peter Coburn]

Interesting Walter Rachuig Trophy registration - https://online.justice.vic.gov.au/c...artial-extract?orgnum=B2073494B&result_page=1

 

[bowlrig]

Interesting Walter Rachuig Trophy registration - https://online.justice.vic.gov.au/c...artial-extract?orgnum=B2073494B&result_page=1

Why would the Walter Rachuig Trophy be registered as a business trading in Frankston South???

Rob