2011 Results & Rankings

[becka_girl]

So i take thats as you still bowling if you don't receive it?
To Chris, I have read in an earlier post of yours that you believe 190 or higher should be off scratch any one lower then that should get 8 pins.
To Luke, you say that some patterns require a high rev rate and more power so the women are at a disadvantage, well it could be said that some patterns are the opposite, less revs and power are an advantage....I don't see anybody giving me an 8 pin advantage, but wait...some conditions will suit the righties so maybe we should give the lefties 8 pins. Lets face it some
conditions will suit some and not others. I just don't see why higher average bowlers are receiving an unfair advantage. If you want to encourage more women to bowl maybe give them a discount IMO.

Luke isnt trying to convince the guys to bowl though...at every event, majority of the bowlers are men! Luke is trying to encourage the women to bowl because lets face it we are really struggling to get women to bowl tournaments these days because they dont think they are good enough! The eight pins is simply encouraging them to give the sports series a go!

 

[bluey]

I've always just wondered why a 200 ave female gets handicap over a 175-180 ave male? I thought we were judged on ability not on what's in our pants. Many of the top women kick my arse, and good on 'em. It would be good if we were all just looked upon as "bowlers", not female nor male because at the end of the day a 200 ave is a 200 ave no matter who bowled it. As for requiring a higher rev rate on sports patterns, HA! Tournaments in this country are won by George, Trotts, and when she bowled Cara Honeychurch. (not including Belmo as he does it for a job) Not exactly high rev rate players but they all had one thing in common that strangely enough is a characteristic to females more so than males and that is accuracy and repetition. In this modern day of reactive bowling balls that everyone whinges about as being unfair advantage who needs revs anyway? we just buy revs off the shelf. Belmo has all 3, revs, accuracy and repetition, a formidable force on the lanes but being as he is a PBA player i don't think it's fair to put him in the same catagory as the rest of us. As for the majority of men with higher rev rates they sacrifice either repetition or accuracy in their quest to whack the case off it. Women don't (mostly) try and whack it so they are generally more accurate (as proven by the ball tracker technology on the PBA) and repetitive. Most guys bowl more pins under ave on tight patterns than women, and the VSS is all about giving us tough conditions. There are of course exceptions, I'm not saying that this is always the case but 64 pins advantage on a tough condition when scoring is lower is in my opinion a lot to make up against someone that generally has the same ave as me.
I know it's not about to change but l thought l'd just throw this out there, "bowlers" with a league ave under 180 should get a handicap, "bowlers" over 190 ave regardless of sex should not get handicap. In between those numbers well maybe a sliding scale/%. I'll bowl anyway if it fits with my calender.

 

[becka_girl]

I've always just wondered why a 200 ave female gets handicap over a 175-180 ave male? I thought we were judged on ability not on what's in our pants. Many of the top women kick my arse, and good on 'em. It would be good if we were all just looked upon as "bowlers", not female nor male because at the end of the day a 200 ave is a 200 ave no matter who bowled it. As for requiring a higher rev rate on sports patterns, HA! Tournaments in this country are won by George, Trotts, and when she bowled Cara Honeychurch. (not including Belmo as he does it for a job) Not exactly high rev rate players but they all had one thing in common that strangely enough is a characteristic to females more so than males and that is accuracy and repetition. In this modern day of reactive bowling balls that everyone whinges about as being unfair advantage who needs revs anyway? we just buy revs off the shelf. Belmo has all 3, revs, accuracy and repetition, a formidable force on the lanes but being as he is a PBA player i don't think it's fair to put him in the same catagory as the rest of us. As for the majority of men with higher rev rates they sacrifice either repetition or accuracy in their quest to whack the case off it. Women don't (mostly) try and whack it so they are generally more accurate (as proven by the ball tracker technology on the PBA) and repetitive. Most guys bowl more pins under ave on tight patterns than women, and the VSS is all about giving us tough conditions. There are of course exceptions, I'm not saying that this is always the case but 64 pins advantage on a tough condition when scoring is lower is in my opinion a lot to make up against someone that generally has the same ave as me.
I know it's not about to change but l thought l'd just throw this out there, "bowlers" with a league ave under 180 should get a handicap, "bowlers" over 190 ave regardless of sex should not get handicap. In between those numbers well maybe a sliding scale/%. I'll bowl anyway if it fits with my calender.

I think the gender has a lot to do with it. Most patterns suit the more power players of the game and thats where the women struggle because we dont have as much power as the guys. Occassionaly you will get a pattern that suits more of your stroker bowler but they are very rare!


And in terms of patterns, this year since they have been putting the tougher patterns, I believe the power players have won most of them. Correct me if I'm wrong but Belmo has won the last two.

The eight pins is simply to encourage the women who average around the 160-190 mark to give the tougher patterns a go. The 190 plus average women would most likely still bowl sports series even if they didnt get the bonus eight pins.


Why fix something that isn't broken?

 

[KnuckleHead]

The 5 pins in Asia and 8 Pins in Europe for Women seems to work and again some of the best in the World. As Bec said why fix something that isn't broken

 

[Docta]

The 5 pins in Asia and 8 Pins in Europe for Women seems to work and again some of the best in the World. As Bec said why fix something that isn't broken

Well it seems that some pple think it isn't broke but the guys i spoke to after sundays event believe it is "broke". I do agree with Bec in giving the women in the 160 -190 ave 8 pins, but why only women. I would like to see more low ave bowlers, be it men or women come try out the sports series. I don't see why as member we can not put it to a vote. We could have a secret ballot if some guys would like to stay anonymous. I would just hate to see some guys not bowl because they believed it to not be a fair system IMO

 

[bluey]

I think the gender has a lot to do with it. Most patterns suit the more power players of the game and thats where the women struggle because we dont have as much power as the guys. Occassionaly you will get a pattern that suits more of your stroker bowler but they are very rare!


And in terms of patterns, this year since they have been putting the tougher patterns, I believe the power players have won most of them. Correct me if I'm wrong but Belmo has won the last two.

The eight pins is simply to encourage the women who average around the 160-190 mark to give the tougher patterns a go. The 190 plus average women would most likely still bowl sports series even if they didnt get the bonus eight pins.


Why fix something that isn't broken?

Belmo doesn't bowl the VSS and at open events the women don't get handicap. Out of the 4 events this year, winners are Em Robbo, JB, Trotts and Ben. I haven't seen Ben bowl but l don't see any power players with the other 3? So where's the advantage in being big and strong and inaccurate? Many guys don't like the handicap given to women that ave higher than them but few will ever speak up about it publically, clearly l don't have that problem but as l said l'll bowl anyway.

 

[mikeymikey]

The VSS is a scratch event so everyone going in knows that.
If Females need encouragement to enter then i see that as ok.
But if your good enough to make the cut then i dont see you needing 8 pins.
Maybe if you make the cut and not just win a tournament then you dont get the 8 pins ! just a thought.

 

[Phluff]

If there was to be a rule change it would be that nobody got a handicap. The reason? Aside from the fact every centre and every pattern produces a different average, I do not trust bowlers averages, simple as that. I have seen far too many bowlers "manage" an average to gain advantage in league or to maintain a lower classification in a tournament. The option of giving any bowlers with XXX average a handicap is never going to be on the table.

This "broken" system has been used for the last 4 years.
It's not a "if it aint broke dont fix it" thing, its a "the rules are in place to ensure a successful series" thing.

The Victorian Sports Series is the most successful in the country.

We are averaging 48 bowlers per event this year (up from the average of 32 last year) including a "record" 16 individual females and 74 individual males.
So far no female is averaging over 200 for the year with the highest being Rebbeca Robinson on 196 from 32 games.

 

[Phluff]

Seeing as people like to talk averages, I have just gone through the 2011 results so far.
Out of 99 individual bowlers, 80 are male and 19 are female.
There are 4 females ranked in the top 20 based on YTD averages. The highest of these is Rebbecca Robinson ranked 14th with a 196.67 average.
There are 8 males averageing over 199.88
12 Males (15% of the male field) & 7 Females (37%) are averaging under 170.

 

[chucker]

Looks like the Numbers speak for themselves Luke? Great work,Great Tournaments and a Great Challenge. Dont change anything its becoming more popular every year by proof of what a great system it is and how well it works.If you want change and handicap go join an extra league and be a good league bowler? Otherwise Challenge yourself and be better?

 

[becka_girl]

Looks like the Numbers speak for themselves Luke? Great work,Great Tournaments and a Great Challenge. Dont change anything its becoming more popular every year by proof of what a great system it is and how well it works.If you want change and handicap go join an extra league and be a good league bowler? Otherwise Challenge yourself and be better?

Completely agree!!

Why do the men need handicap? Maybe they are just having a bad year? Seriously though most of the time the pattern will always suit the men and not so much the women, thats why we need the encouragement!
I think getting rid of the 8 pins for the women will just kill the sport and will soon be a men only sport!

 

[jason_doust]

Hmmm... This IS an interesting question, with good points made on both sides of the argument. As for high rev rates being the key to winning on a sport pattern. NO WAY! Not until the pattern breaks down and you can get left and that takes some time, usually way too much time. Sport shots are all about straighter being greater and making your own ball roll match up to the break point. (As opposed to cheating house shots which provide Gobi Desert freaktion outside 10 board, so only a weak release can hold in the friction without nose diving.) Stephen Cowland is probably the best player on sport shots in NSW. While Cow throws it great and truly earns my respect as a player, he's not exactly in possession of high rev rate, tilt or rotation numbers. He is your textbook stroker.

As for whether you change the system, Ill defer to someone who knew a lot more about this than I do and a little while earlier too...

"It ought to be remembered that there is nothing more difficult to take in hand, more perilous to conduct, or more uncertain in its success, than to take the lead in the introduction of a new order of things. Because the innovator has for enemies all those who have done well under the old conditions, and lukewarm defenders in those who may do well under the new. This coolness arises partly from fear of the opponents, who have the laws on their side, and partly from the incredulity of men, who do not readily believe in new things until they have had a long experience of them."

Niccolò Machiavelli
The Prince - 1513
Original Italian title: Il Principe (written c. 1505)
Source: http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Niccolò_Machiavelli

 

[bluey]

Completely agree!!

Why do the men need handicap? Maybe they are just having a bad year? Seriously though most of the time the pattern will always suit the men and not so much the women, thats why we need the encouragement!
I think getting rid of the 8 pins for the women will just kill the sport and will soon be a men only sport!

Seriously? Would you give it all away if you didn't get handicap? Maybe we need some special people to sit behind the women shouting encouragement to keep them in the sport..maybe some one could hold their hands into the bowling centre to comfort them?


jason_doust
Re: 2011 Results & Rankings

Hmmm... This IS an interesting question, with good points made on both sides of the argument. As for high rev rates being the key to winning on a sport pattern. NO WAY! Not until the pattern breaks down and you can get left and that takes some time, usually way too much time. Sport shots are all about straighter being greater and making your own ball roll match up to the break point. (As opposed to cheating house shots which provide Gobi Desert freaktion outside 10 board, so only a weak release can hold in the friction without nose diving.) Stephen Cowland is probably the best player on sport shots in NSW. While Cow throws it great and truly earns my respect as a player, he's not exactly in possession of high rev rate, tilt or rotation numbers. He is your textbook stroker.

As for whether you change the system, Ill defer to someone who knew a lot more about this than I do and a little while earlier too...

"It ought to be remembered that there is nothing more difficult to take in hand, more perilous to conduct, or more uncertain in its success, than to take the lead in the introduction of a new order of things. Because the innovator has for enemies all those who have done well under the old conditions, and lukewarm defenders in those who may do well under the new. This coolness arises partly from fear of the opponents, who have the laws on their side, and partly from the incredulity of men, who do not readily believe in new things until they have had a long experience of them." Niccolò Machiavelli
The Prince - 1513
Original Italian title: Il Principe (written c. 1505)
Source: Niccolò Machiavelli - Wikiquote


Let's all just read those bold bits again, coming from one of the most intelligent bowling geeks in the country.
Love the quote from the Prince, Jason, it really resonates with me.

 

[Steevie]

Australian Reps, State Reps should not get handicap.

 

[Baz]

"(As opposed to cheating house shots which provide Gobi Desert freaktion outside 10 board, so only a weak release can hold in the friction without nose diving.)"

Hmm Jason, maybe a little anger management counseling might be appropriate?

 

[Docta]

Australian Reps, State Reps should not get handicap.

Totally agree.

 

[becka_girl]

Australian Reps, State Reps should not get handicap.

depends what you class as state reps because there is rachuig level and also east coast!

 

[bluey]

depends what you class as state reps because there is rachuig level and also east coast!

All of the above, past and present.

 

[chucker]

I would maybe say just Australian Reps past and present but not State Reps as anyone can make a State Team with the numbers that turn up its harder to make the Dandy Dunn Shield Team?

 

[jason_doust]

"(As opposed to cheating house shots which provide Gobi Desert freaktion outside 10 board, so only a weak release can hold in the friction without nose diving.)"

Hmm Jason, maybe a little anger management counseling might be appropriate?

Hey Baz,

I'm more sad than angry about house shots, as it's treating all customers like the mugs who would rather complain than get some much-needed coaching or practice. I just won't perpetuate the beautiful lie over the terrible truth. It would require a conscious abdication of my integrity; a price too high to pay. I'd rather tell people what they don't want to hear than knowingly lie to them. And let's be honest, nearly all house shots are cheating. Like making a golf course with gutter-shaped fairways and funnel-shaped greens! (I'm sure they exist, too.)

It's also pretty fresh as I practiced at an AMF house on the blocked house shot this week and my goodness... Expressed mathematically, it was asymptotic to zero oil outside 10 board. I went around the pattern for 247, but that wasn't nearly as effective as the game before, hurling the rock on 13-11, breaking at 7-9 for 260-something with an open frame! So long as I made the ball under-react enough, I seriously couldn't miss at the pins, despite missing all over the place on the lane, my speed and release. I touched the finger holes for the open frame; a nose dive for a 4-6-10. As chucking with a low rev rate is something I don't need day to day and my legs were already sore from 3 days on my feet, I didn't keep practicing it. I went back to bowling.

All I'm saying on that point is what I have always said since returning to bowling and seeing all the blocked lanes. How can we ask anyone to respect bowling if bowling won't respect itself? This is why I think sport bowling (a.k.a. honest bowling) is so vitally important to the future of bowling as a sport. And before the usual mob of binary thinkers flame me, read my signature. House shots should be easier than sport shots. Not everyone wants to work as hard on their game as me (and there's plenty who work harder than me) and that's OK. So make house shots easier. Just not the craziness we currently see which only promotes poor technique at the expense of practice and coaching. You are penalised with over reaction on a lot of house shots for having strong ball roll and rewarded with big bounce area for having weak ball roll. It's crazy... No worse, it's rigged. And that makes it unfair, especially when you want to progress to a higher level and everything you've learned is now not much chop, which is a bit cruel when you think about it.

Anyway, we're miles off topic now. A friend of mine made an interesting statement. He said (words to the effect of) "We've lost this generation of bowlers to the chest-beating "I've got a 220 average!" mentality. Now we have to pick up the pieces and try to get the youth back into bowling." So go the Sport Series! More power to it and to everyone who bowls it! You are the torch bearers of bowling.

Cheers,
Jason