Tenpin / Tennis / and Television.

[John_Velo]

Hi Jim,

The Australian Open story really is amazing. Great job done by the promoters to sell what is currently big in China.

yet you look at the Aus F1, viewed by an even bigger audience and it is not wanted in Vic by the public or government.

Now what if we could sell a bowling tournament in Aus to countries that have bowling up there as their most popular sport, pretty sure the Philipenes is a country that has bowling ranked highly as a national sport. Again just thoughts.

On the handicap side of the conversation, i find it frustrating in league that a handicap is always based on the entire league. So it promotes sandbagging, again no good for the sport. I would like to see the handicap system based on a sliding window of six weeks max.

An example of such a reason is the 185 average bowler that has had the same ball for years. they spare well, but don't strike often. At week 40 of a 50 week league they lash out on a new ball and start throwing 210+ average with that new reactive ball. That makes them really hard to beat no matter how good you are as after 40 weeks of 185 by the end of the league they would be lucky to have a 195 average.

Better still, offer mini leagues that only run for ten or twelve weeks, we are more likely to attrack new bowlers to a mini league than a 40 week league. this is were i could see the merit of a short form of game on a different points system being good fun.

again a good conversational point guys.

if nothing comes of it, we have at least been civil and shown that some us of care.

 

[Fitzy]

Apologies this below was more of a brainstorm and hasn't been edited:-

Another spectacle would be the formation of a serious team bowling "event" similar to most other sports (not a yearly event but an ongoing event).

Formation of division leagues where teams can be entered, play for a "season" (say 3 monthly), top teams get promoted, bottom teams relegated.

This could then lead to city based league ... state based league. All levels progress from bottom division to top.

Need a quicker turn around than a yearly competition and "scoring type" would have to be determined.

What I am trying to get at is there is no form of progression through the sport of bowling and no form of "getting behind a team". Everyone turns up to league. Some bowl social Tournys others go on to bowl a competitive tournament. One 'could' potentially walk in off the street and enter into a ranked event (not advisable, but possible). What if there was some kind of structure that made one progress through the ranks to qualify for a ranked event. This 'structure' would compel the competitive's (be honest, it's bowling everyone who reads this site is somewhat competitive) to bowl and progress to have the chance to qualify for the top prize (entry to ranked tournament say). Monies (pay en extra $2 per person into a kitty) collected through all district leagues would go towards entering the winning team members into whatever is the biggest tournament we have nowadays.

 

[Mistagear]

Nomore4s,

Handicaps, ...has to be easier to bowl 100 every game than 200 ? Why bother to improve ?

League bowlers not entering tournaments,... if graded they play against same grade opposition in weekly comp, wouldn't it be natural and more common for a player to give a tournament a go ?

Leap to League play.... You want bowling skill to be better understood and recognized yet you dont want a step up in skill when someones decides this is a sport they want to play and become good at. Start a sport and you start in the lowest grade and work your way up, that is how you build respect for the skills of the better bowlers. By making each step more difficult than the last, you increase the desire to attain higher levels

I want everyone to voice opinions here, hope you dont mind I attempt to counter what I see as misconceptions
thanks for contributing to the discussion

 

[Phluff]

John: There are a number of leagues out there that already run rolling handicaps. It's just a tick box in the league setup on the Computer Score system.

There are some interesting points raised in this thread. My take on what has been said is that the problem isn't the game. Ideas for changing scoring system, game length etc aren't helping Bowling, they are creating a new sport. What needs to be done is a repackaging of the game we have.

Tennis is the sport being used as an example, so will run with that... The rules of the game itself haven't changed, but rules on what players wear, crowd noise, players noise, challenges etc have all been introduced to create an atmosphere that encourages viewers. It has nothing to do with the scoring system used. Additionally, you cannot compare (Tennis) AO to the (bowling) AO. It's just a different level of competition. Where on TV do you see huge ratings for the Victorian Tennis Championships? You're talking about TV coverage of international events, of course it's going to gain sponsors and viewers. Even if the Australian networks don't end up showing it all, the feed can be sold to other countries. How many events do you think Nadal, Federer, Murray etc took part in where 5 people watched in their early days?

My thoughts have always been that the biggest thing holding the "sport" back is lack of pathways. Something like:
Social Games>Social League>Competitive League>Sports League>State Sports Series>National Events
Well defined steps, with differences at each stage to let people know that this is the next step up in skill. Despite what we all think, it's not common knowledge that it takes more skill to get a strike in game 12 of a National event than it does in the 3rd frame of disco bowling. The ball is round, the pins are at the end and in the casual bowlers mind, it's all luck.

In the end, there is a repackaged game I'd love to see on TV. It would have coloured lane oil that showed the pattern ON the lane, tighter restrictions on gear, less concern over what the bowler was wearing, a "shot" clock, partisan crowds that cheer and boo, and yes.. more "Bottle" incidents!

 

[jimcross]

Phluff says "My thoughts have always been that the biggest thing holding the "sport" back is lack of pathways. Something like:
Social Games>Social League>Competitive League>Sports League>State Sports Series>National Events
Well defined steps, with differences at each stage to let people know that this is the next step up in skill. Despite what we all think, it's not common knowledge that it takes more skill to get a strike in game 12 of a National event than it does in the 3rd frame of disco bowling. The ball is round, the pins are at the end and in the casual bowlers mind, it's all luck.

In the end, there is a repackaged game I'd love to see on TV. It would have coloured lane oil that showed the pattern ON the lane, tighter restrictions on gear, less concern over what the bowler was wearing, a "shot" clock, partisan crowds that cheer and boo, and yes.. more "Bottle" incidents! "
--------------------------------------------------

Now, we're getting warm ! We've got to 'manufacture' a spectacle. Have a look at " The Block ", Have a look at some cooking shows - My Kitchen Rules - Master Chef - Similar formats - As John said about Aust Tennis open--- "Great job done by the promoters "
What a pity we don't have any of them. Should be easy for a promoter to create more interest around bowling than people renovating a housing unit. Surely?

Make a couple, at least, shows about finding and picking the 'contestants' against of all sorts of glamor and glitz in the background - as per Phluff's repackaged game ( above ) then taking them from fun, even bumper, bowling, through little bits of instruction, to bigger bits, to as high as they can individually get - but all the time FUN - FUN - FUN. Intoduce more and more individual competiveness - as per the Renovation and Cooking shows. ending up with one or more in (say) the Aust Open or similar

Then, harness the public interest created to get more and more 'fun' bowlers into centres, and then do what AMF and Brunswick did in the '60s. Run an all-out effort to convert as many as possible of them into some form of 'real' ( but still fun ) bowling, ( different forms / scoring, etc. ) leading onwards to higher level leagues and comps.

I think that would work, but.........I'm fairly sure it will never happen.

 

[John_Velo]

Phluff and Jim,

Good points there. I agree, it's not so much the game but the environment created.

Coloured lane oil, I like that idea, could make the lane break down easier to read?

Again, the key have fun and make it fun, then it would be fun to watch if the bowlers are having fun also. Smile and cheer when kicking the ball return if you must.

Great points guys.

 

[Mistagear]

DO me a favour and watch the Belmo v Vin Gerard video .

Note.
At the beginning, Belmo explains the procedure of who bowls where etc, note Vin losing interest already.
Vin splits first frame, Belmo a 9...frame won there, we could already have a mini result but no its only the first frame
Belmo a strike, but you are not able to build any tension because its 2nd frame
2nd frame Vin bowls a spare...down 2 points and pressure building... not the way we score its not.
3rd Vin 8, if Belmo bowls now you could have pressure to see if B' can bowl 9 or X ..add tension,
B bowls an 8.. we would now have pressure for both B' and V' to spare their 8. Both spare so we add drama as they are trading 8/ blows. Bowl again to win this point
B' strikes..pressure again on V's next shot to save this “game”.. if you had spectators they would start to ride this next shot, but under existing scoring, its almost of no interest. V' bowls a 7, B' wins the point.

Score B' 3, V' 0.

V' needs to win almost every point now to stop B' taking the first game (first to 5 pts is game)
next point, B splits , pressure to spare if he can to seal this point for a 4 nil lead..spares to win the point.
B' strikes the next.... It's strike or lose time for V'... see how you could interest people in this format and would showcase skill much more than normal scoring does.
V' bowls, pocket ball, crowd rides it in.... leaves a 10 pin, crowd cheer B's winning the first game.
Everyone can follow the scoring its drama buildable, it's got excitement in the scoring

Second game.
V' opens with a 9, B' also a 9... already we build tension again, V' nneds a spare to keep pressure on B'...V bowls ..misses, crowd sighs. Now B' has to spare this for the first point B' spares and wins
.Score B' 1g 1pt,....... V' 0g 0pt
B' bowls strike..pressure on V' not to fall behind again. Crowd rides his shot...no, loses another point.
V' bowls, already needs a good shot to stay in this, bowls a strike B' bowls a strike , tension building.

At this point on the tape Vin says “I dont really care because you have won this game anyhow.
THIS is exactly why current scoring is detrimental to the game, it's already so boring one player has lost interest and if people were watching, they have lost interest and have little reason to respect either bowlers skill.

At this point B' strikes out, but instead of adding to the match, he comments that V' “needs a strike to break 150”... Even he has lost interest and does not value his own skill because the game is dead.
V actually does bowl a strike but it's of no value to the match whereas if it were scored by points both bowlers would still be trying to win the next point.
Finally the scores are shown and both bowlers are getting bored with this match. So would spectators or other players.

V' suddenly finds some excitement because he wins the first frame, but soon we go back to the same boring frame after frame waiting to get to the 10th frame.
Current scoring makes the tape relatively boring, except for comical comments, otherwise the bowling lacks drama. With my scoring, B' would have been under a fair amount of pressure because of where V' was able to strike.

Belmo's comment pushes home my point when he says “ I don't know what frame it is, I dont look at the score”...
I suggest many league bowlers are as disinterested in the score and the comp as Belmo's comment.

Bowling as a sport fails to capture the head to head feeling that most sports have. This goes a long way to explain why the public do not see it as a sport

 

[Roysa]

To be fair the Belmo V Joker wasnt genuine Mista. The throw away comment from Jason is exactly that and while the video is a bit of fun id much prefer to watch the PBA where they are constantly looking at the score.

Your version of the 'sport' devalues the X in my opinion, also how does this work in a league? If im up against a person with an avg of 100 who rarely hits the head pin and usually scores less than 7 how much excitment is there when i go X99X8 and they are getting belted 5-0? They have more chance if i have to chase a 90 pin hdc.

I truly can not buy any of your mini games as anything that would appeal to me. The game to me is about being consistant (although i wish i was more so ), the cream always rises to the top and throwing good shots over a long period of time is what wins you things.

I dont disagree we are not exactly capturing the peopel who dont understand, but changing the game to your proposal will do more damage than good, or maybe its just me?

 

[jimcross]

Seriously, bowling could be lifted into a top viewing prospect. Not by going in the front door, shouting " Take us seriously as a sport !! " - But by the backdoor as an entertainment reality show. Make it popular that way, and develop the sport from it's new, manufactured appeal, with lots more participants, who, handled properly will embrace it as a sport. It has so many advantages over most other sports, e.g. All weather, The range of people who can compete ( age groups, etc. ) Imagine a family from, say, an 8 year old girl, her teenage brother, mum and dad and grandma. having a friendly, but competitive game of Rugby, AFL, Cricket, Hockey, Baseball and so on and so on. We should be able to harness that.

There is no need for all levels of bowling to be welded to one scoring system. I was lookig up something to do with scoring on google. Try it and you'll find several sites saying things like " bowlings complex, hard to understand scoring system, puts people off',". We can keep the scoring system for the top levels of bowling - or whatever a league may choose. We don't need to throw anything out, I personally think the current system produces an accurate reflection of a Bowler's ability, but it doesn't need to be exclusive. Golf has been spoken of during this discussion. There are over 40 official ways of scoring golf. Golf as a prime time TV sport has dropped to around 50% of where it was in the lare 80s - early 90s. I think it's fairly obvious why. The ones that prosper now, as opposed to the early days of Television ( Remember, Television only arrived in Australia around 4 years before Bowling. People would watch anything that was on it !! ) are those with a large live audience. Golf has some, but not comparable with the various football codes - Baseball outside Australia, Cricket, etc. Motor Racing - but slowly dying, I think.
Bowling could get over that hurdle because of it's ability to have universal actual participation, and be an entertainment at the same time.

It could be done, but where are the entrepeneurs - the promoters.?

It would be realitively easy to kick this around with a few free thinkers, and iron out all the bugs ( most problems are caused by wrinkled bugs ) but my fingers are not up to doing it by writing. Ideas come faster than I can handle, and in any case, as I said - Where are the Entrepeneurs / Promoters ? Without them nothing will change. So I fear that's it.

 

[Roysa]

Fair call on some points Jim, there is a thin line though, promote it as a game and thats what it will stay.

 

[Mistagear]

I'm absolutely certain that the group of people who did bowl league as their "sport" far outweighs the number who stayed.
Bowling worked in the 60's because it was new. If it ticked the boxes as a sport then it would be bigger than any other sport (time available to play, age group able to play,min physical requirement etc)
Most everything else has been tried, (clothing, formats,promo's, tv shows outdoors etc) nothing has worked, in the main Bowling cant keep people who originally were interested.
Many sports have changed dramatically how they are played, bowling has a losing formula and is bent on keeping it.
Bowling centres have been forced to chase social play because league play has failed. Every owner would prefer to know he had a full centre of league every night guaranteed than hope people might come off the street. Every centre has tried and failed to fill with "sport" bowling.
Those of you who are left still bowling are the ones in the minority who dont see competition the same as the majority who tried bowling and found it lacking. They probably are playing another sport and bowling has zero chance to get them back if you keep doing the same thing.
Sport Bowling has painted itself into a corner by losing people from the sport. Thats why nothing that worked in the 60's will ever work again. The sport is running around moving the deckchairs on the Titanic.
You NEED a format that interesting to players and spectators/viewers or the sport of bowling will fade away.

I should make a pilot video with a couple of singles players and one with a team format.
I'm in Newcastle if someone has cameras and lights plus a few bowlers, see if we can make an interesting video with bowlers comments at the end. If there is no interest after that, I'll admit I am totally wrong and will shut up.
I'd make it in Orange if Belmo will participate, his profile would increase chance of more viewers to comment

 

[Mistagear]

Other than what I suggested, have tried to extract the positive suggestions from the entire thread. Left out the excuses why things dont work.
I find it interesting that a thread on "sportsmanship" has twice the views and more posts than this one.
Apparently it is more interesting and more important to existing bowlers whether someone should shake hands just because your opponent had a couple of lucky shots, and should you high five everyone within walking distance, than it is worth trying to find a solution to the demise of your sport in a few years.

from this thread..


1: what if in bowling like tennis we cheer when our opponent misses, just like in tennis?

2: what if we grunt really loadly just as our opponent is about to bowl their shot, just like in tennis?

3: better still what if we make it like golf and have a caddy hand us our spare ball to finish a frame?
….................................................................................

4: develop our own idiosyncrasies to compete with 1: to 3: above?
…...................................................................................

Until the body is serious about making the game of tenpin a sport again we are all pissing in the wind.​

….................................................................​

It would have to come back to the theatre that the promoters build, the exitement given by the personalities in the game, and the way they really get into the game
…........................................................................................
So maybe we need to get the excitement going with the bowlers cheering each other along, shorter format leagues that are done in a school term and not ask for a one year commitment. Roll onto the next league in ten weeks tops. Run five game events for all league bowlers to compete in on the last weekend of the month, win bowler of the week and at the end of the month you get to bowl in a special event.
….......................................................................................
My thoughts are forget trying to compete with major sports and worrying about getting on TV. The powers that be should trying to educate league bowlers, creating higher participation in tournaments, working with bowling centres to create stronger leagues and more regular tournaments and participation from league bowlers.
…....................................................................................
Another spectacle would be the formation of a serious team bowling "event" similar to most other sports (not a yearly event but an ongoing event).

Formation of division leagues where teams can be entered, play for a "season" (say 3 monthly), top teams get promoted, bottom teams relegated.

This could then lead to city based league ... state based league. All levels progress from bottom division to top.

there is no form of progression through the sport of bowling and no form of "getting behind a team". Everyone turns up to league. Some bowl social Tournys others go on to bowl a competitive tournament. One 'could' potentially walk in off the street and enter into a ranked event (not advisable, but possible). What if there was some kind of structure that made one progress through the ranks to qualify for a ranked event. This 'structure' would compel the competitive
…...............................................................................
the biggest thing holding the "sport" back is lack of pathways. Something like:
Social Games>Social League>Competitive League>Sports League>State Sports Series>National Events
Well defined steps, with differences at each stage to let people know that this is the next step up in skill.
…......................................................................
We've got to 'manufacture' a spectacle. Have a look at " The Block ", Have a look at some cooking shows - My Kitchen Rules - Master Chef - Similar formats - As John said about Aust Tennis open--- "Great job done by the promoters "
…........................................................................
Coloured lane oil, I like that idea, could make the lane break down easier to read?
….....................................................
bowling could be lifted into a top viewing prospect. Not by going in the front door, shouting " Take us seriously as a sport !! " - But by the backdoor as an entertainment reality show. Make it popular that way, and develop the sport from it's new, manufactured appeal

end of extract.


I assert if you make bowling easy to know exactly who is winning and give every shot an outcome affecting the match, you will dramatically change the level of interest in the game.
This will have a flow on affect on the prestige and respect for the skills required at all levels of the sport.
eg, I have competed in another sport from club level to national level, the feeling of winning lowly club finals in front of family and friends was more satisfying than any level of Bowling (yes I have bowled at top level competition and been ranked nationally)
Celebrating a win in front of a crowd of spectators adds much to the pleasurable experience. My method helps facilitate an audience same as local footy/netball/hockey/baseball etc does to give their players the experience, that helps their sport to retain and grow the sport


I think I have in part, the basis of a solution, I'm intent on testing these theories. Am open to constructive assistance and any help to produce a video and receive feedback once the video is posted online.

At this point am thinking a 3 player team match. Hoping to show how my format can change the psychological challenge for players by direct head to head competition and watchability for viewers.
Lets face it, if I can make a team match interesting, I'm on a winner.

Hope people here will offer whatever help and suggestions they can with the best interests of your sport in mind rather than be critical before they understand the concept

 

[jimcross]

I basically agree with Mistagear, in that a scoring system which produces a continuous , almosr ball to ball competition MUST produce a spectator involvement which the present ( effectively only ) scoring method, can't

That's from a 'general overview' point of view.

On the other hand, I also agree with Roy about our normal scoring system. I like it. I believe it is very clever, in that I believe it pretty accurately grades the actual skill level of bowlers - regardless of 'fluke' shots, both good and bad. A 140 average bowler may occasionally beat a 200 average bowler, by a combination of silly lucky shots on one hand, or a series of pocket hits with rubbish leaves on the other, or a combination of both - BUT - bowl another game - and another.....................

So, given a choice I would probably opt to compete under the current system. Mind you, there might be a little bias built into that, by having done it that way for around 52 years !!

But, there's no suggestion of 'replacement' just an option. Pity the Tenpin Bowling Show was not supported ( there I go on that hobbyhorse again ). What a great professional job they could have done of producing Mistagear's vision............."At this point am thinking a 3 player team match. Hoping to show how my format can change the psychological challenge for players by direct head to head competition and watchability for viewers.
Lets face it, if I can make a team match interesting, I'm on a winner."

There's a lot more challenges of course, not the least of which is getting all the different stakeholders to pull in something like the same direction. That's one, and admittedly only one, of the differences then ( when Tenpin was regularly on TV) and now.

Then, AMF had almost all the centres, and THEY ALL OPERATED ON THE SAME POLICY AND PROCEDURES, which was, effectively, 'find ways to attract social bowlers, so we can turn them into league bowlers.' That was it ! that was the mantra ! It really was that simple.

For many reasons, it was easier then - people's attitudes - less options for entertainment - TV only a handful of years old. First TV - 1956 , etc., etc. The pessimist in me says that that sort of co-operation by the diverse interests of to-day's stakeholders is dreamland.

 

[Roysa]

Good luck with your experiment mista. I truly hope it works.

I still don't see why the mystery about who your are. If you say you have represented at the top level in tournaments and you have been ranked then why not come out of the shadows?

Were you worried people wouldn't like your idea?

 

[amagill]

He's got a name on his profile page now Roy, "Pete Elliott".

 

[jimcross]

Roy,
I find it quite strange that, from observations recently on this site, I think there are probably more 'hidden' people on here than real people. Wasn't so in the early days of Total Bowling. It's a modern thing - don't know why.

I like the ones, who describe themselves as 'John from Australia" or something similar, who then ask if anyone can recommend a Ball Driller, or a Coach, etc.

By the way, I reckon Mistagear might hold the record on here for the person who has bowled earliest in Australia, and is still around.

I'd say, April 1960. Wonder if he may confirm that ?

 

[Roysa]

Pressure too much Pete

 

[Roysa]

To be honest Jim I don't go checking out profiles. I was interested to know who mista was as he genuinely had an interest in the sport. I also called him a troll I think. Good times.

 

[Mistagear]

Roy and others,
I really would like to focus on the concept I present. Does it really matter what my name is ?

I think I bring my ideas to this forum with a range of experiences within the sport, which only a very few people here will have had.
I bowled at 9yr, my Parents were involved in meetings prior to the formation of ATBC and contributed to creating the organization. One parent later became President of NSWTBA, offered life membership of Newcastle TBA.
I worked in a bowl after school. I bowled from 1962 to 2003.
I bowled at every level in Australia, from original Coca Cola Juniors to Aust Championships and Tournament circuit. The only thing I have not bowled in is Rachuig, but actually met Walter Rachuig in Newcastle when he was instructing my parents how to measure bowling lanes, I met Kevin Orchard (Foundation President ATBC) and Jack Walton (inaugural Secretary-Treasurer ATBC) . Was a junior member of ATBC in it's first year and a member of the first NSW Junior Rep team.
I have been a regular league bowler in a number of Centres on East Coast over the years and owned a Bowling Centre from 1997-2003.
I assert I have the best interests of bowling at heart, have due respect for the tradition and heritage of the sport and have a unique prospective because I have not only been involved at almost every level, I have spent thousands of hours observing bowlers in social, league and tournament play.
I spent about 10 years observing bowling, bowlers and other sports with the express purpose of discovering why bowling seemingly had so many advantage in promotion and sustainability over other sports yet has constantly declined during my time in the sport.
After 10 years of pondering, this proposed alternative is the only logical explanation I have ever been able to identify which might explain why bowing is not one of Australia's biggest national sports.
I no longer bowl, would have been easier for me to not waste time penning the numerous posts on this subject, I suspect I would like to give back a little to the sport if I can.

Regards, Peter Brierley
PS. Since I mentioned Rachuig, look at how that competition uses points system and my ideas are not that far removed from the oldest tradition in Aust bowling

 

[Roysa]

Once again I did say I hope your plan works. Asking your name was not meant to offend I just didn't see what the issue was. As for your concept I admire what you are trying to achieve but I believe the horse has bolted and bowling will never be one of Australia's national sports. I wish you all the best but the 10 frame game is all that interests me personally