SANDBAGGING !!!

[Brenton Davy]

RE "Sandbagging"

I think another road has to be travelled here, and i think the Australian Golf Union has the right idea with its course rating system. As you can imagine not all golf courses are the same and there is no comparison between "Upper Urbutt Public Golf Course" measuring 5,800 metres, par 72 course with no trees, wide fairways and no bunkers and "Lotsasnobs Glades Country Club" measuring 6,500 metres, par 72 with narrow fairways, knee high rough and 125 sand bunkers. The "Australian Course Rating" (ACR) is designed to give players of equal handicaps equal footing at different courses. Course no.1 has an ACR usually of about 65, Course no.2 has an ACR of about 74. The ratings are commensurate with the relative difficulty or ease of the layout.

Now, take say Caboolture, given the scores shot in that house, compared to, say, the old departed (and missed) City Bowl in adelaide which was a very difficult scoring house. A formula is worked out to determine "par" or an ACR (Australin Centre Rating), which would in tyhe end give a figure somethinhg like Caboolture ACR of, for example 220 and City Bowl, say 189. Therefore the 200 average at City Bowl would be a net 211, whereas at Cabooture that 200 average would be a net180. This would create a more even playing field when players from tough centres come to easy centres, giving them higher averagfes than they are used to, as well as assisting the players that come from easy centres to tough ones, giving them a chance to compete on their new "nett" average.

It would take some working out, but I am sure that a formula similar to the one the Australian Golf Union applies to its course ratings would work in rating centres with some adjustments. Obvioulsy these ratings would be adjustable to take into account new oiling patterns, new pins, resurfaces etc.

 

[Greg Ward]

Brenton,

I like the idea, but as you say this would be a difficult task, particularly the variable of the oiling pattern which can change from week to week, or league to league on the same day or league to tournament condition etc.

I guess there is the option of saying something like "this is the oiling pattern that must be used for getting accreditation and determining an Australian Centre Rating score". Or "this is the oiling pattern for a league ACR score", and "this is the oiling pattern for determining a tournament ACR scores", or "this is the oiling pattern for this years De Veer rolloffs".

There is still a significant difference between two centres that have supposedly the same oiling pattern, eg there are still the variables of lane surface, head preparation, pins etc. And as you say I guess that is where the ACR comes in to play.

Greg.

 

[androooo]

Brenton I love that idea, and I would like to make another suggestion, that also resembles the golf handicapping system.

Based on your handicap in golf, if you say shot a 68 with your handicap, on a par 72 course, your handicap changes (depending on your handicap) for every shot under par. For your average B grade golfer (13 handicap) you lose 0.3 for everyshot under par. 4 under par would mean you lose 1.2 of your handicap. Now, if you shot say 130 with your 13 handicap you only receive 0.1 of your handicap back. That saves guys shooting unbeleivably bad scores to get their handicaps back out. The only way to get it back out to "sandbagging" areas, takes a long, long time...

 

[Andrew S.]

If the entering averages at De Veer rolloff time are taken over a long enough period, say 72 games, why could the comp not be bowled scratch?

 

[Graham]

If the entering averages at De Veer rolloff time are taken over a long enough period, say 72 games, why could the comp not be bowled scratch?

Not a bad idea - takes the whole handicap thing out of the equasion.

 

[Greg Ward]

Graham,

I'm not sure if I got your point, are you implying no handicap at all?

If so that won't help the genuine 130 bowler when they come up against the genuine 180 bowler.

Greg.

 

[Andrew S.]

Rachuig has some teams with 175 bowlers who could easily be matched up against 220 bowlers. Why not De Veer?
It would make the coaches think a little harder about their line-up.

 

[Graham]

The lane handicapping is hard, as someone else pointed out the different lane conditions on a given week. Also : on what would you work out the difficulty ? Just because one shot doesnt work on one condition doesnt mean that another won't. In golf, if there are 400 bunkers then a course is going to be hard - FULL STOP. Bowling has lots of variables.

IN RESPONSE TO GREG : Andrew asked why it can't be bowled scratch. Maybe then if they were going to go scratch drop the entering average to 160 .. but then you don't have a competition to cater for the 160-180 average bowlers. After posting my last comment I thought about it and you can't really win. Unless you give the bowlers an average in Walter De Veer that has been worked out over their Nationals entries - that way all bowlers will be graded IN THAT CENTRE - ON THE SAME CONDITION. Sure they make the team on their average back home, but then it brings it all back to a level playing field once in town for the nationals and it might be very even. Are we then going to have bowlers "sandbagging" in their squads at the nationals so their state team has an unfair advantage ? I think most bowlers would be trying their best to work out the lanes and get themselves a shot going into the interstate competition.

 

[Just Me]

I'm sorry people, but i think that those who have spoken disrespectfully in regard to this situation SUCK!!. Unless you are prepared to inquire as to the correct details surrounding this happening, DONT BOTHER MAKING A LAME ARSE, UNABSTANTIATED ASSUMPTION.

The lanes at Moonah are as old as the day is long. The Lefties have had shocking lane conditions for 3-4 months. The right side of the lane, five board to the gutter, has been dry as a bone, and on the left, five board to the gutter has been as oily as the bottom of a kentucky fried chicken box!!!!!!!! So you work it out.

The bowler in question is one the most talented bowlers Australia has ever produced, his knowledge of the game is phenominal, and his game is awsome. He has recently enticed the lane Techs to check the oiling pattern and machine, comparing the left to the right hand side. The findings of this
lane analysis showed that the left hand side oiling pattern was way overboard, making conditions way more favourable for right handers. The oiling pattern has now been changed, resulting in him bowling the POSSIBLE HIGHEST EVER AUSTRALIAN HANDICAP SERIES.

So baggers bagging sandbaggers(this person in question), naff off and rethink the situation or get off your arse and bother to find out the reason as to why, instead of sitting in your glass house.

Signed,

HAYCH.

 

[Andrew S.]

Another suggestion for De Veer.
Run a graded roll-off (scratch) and ask each state to select 1 x 170 - 180 bowler, 1 x 160 - 170 bowler etc.
A full squad of 7 would then have bowlers from 120 up to 180.
Run the comp scratch and let the coaches choose the line-up as usual.

 

[androooo]

.

The bowler in question is one the most talented bowlers Australia has ever produced, his knowledge of the game is phenominal, and his game is awsome.

Signed,

HAYCH.

Yes, I agree that the bowler in question has more talent in his pinky, than most people have in their whole body. The question remeins though, that if his knowledge of the game is phenominal and his game awesome, wouldn't that give him an chance to show others just how good he actually is? When the lanes are demanding like they have been, that should show just who the "better" bowlers really are, by being able to ADJUST (Yes boys and girls, the rules DO ALLOW you to move your target, change your hand position and take the nails out of your shoes and move on the approach!)

Anyway, as far as I'm concerned, the incident is over (new week) and I do seriously hope that he continues his current form.

 

[Pipes]

in all due respect who ever "just me" is the person in question was bowling back up balls.......half the time he doesnt even try..

if he wants to keep bowling backup and making excuses to y he is bowling bad, im mean sure the lanes r really bad but its not like he was trying to start with.

he is a great bowler but if he doesnt want to be sledged for sandbagging he should grow up abit and stop bringing it all on himself!!!
if he actually went through a full series and really went bad when he couldnt do ne better then yes i will stop thining hes a sandbagger.
but until that time my friend he is as guilty as osama bin laden

respect, its my turn to testify!!!
big up ur selfs....hehehe

cyas

 

[micky_macca]

It aint always sandbagging, i mean i have an avg of sub 170 in league yet i still shoot high sereis here and there

 

[Tiger]

I hasten to add that the shot on the left has been very non-existant in the last few months compared to the shot on the right.

*TIGER thinks* :roll: - About time lefties got it hard at Moonah after the 6-7 years of "Silver platter lane conditions" :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: MUHUHUHUHUHUHUA :evil:

Conditions at Moonah change like you or I change our socks and undies so you could get served up a ditch on one pair and some absolute "dog sh!t" on another pair - that's another possible explanation.
This would most likely be because the lanes at Moonah came out with Governer Arthur Phillip on the First Fleet.
I use a recent example of battling to make a 573 in league a couple of weeks ago then moving two-pairs down after league and shooting 268-280-209 for 757 :shock: To be honest I reckon I bowled better and, hit my target more in the 573 series......it all depends on the pair.

Andrew "Haytch" Heaton,
As I told you this evening - you might like to re-read the post
See Above :arrow: And for the full transcript see Page 1.
And while your at it - get the person in question to read the above out aloud - Again.
I never actually accused this person of SANDBAGGING - after all I'm very cogniscant of the problems on the left at Moonah at the moment - I watch my team-mate Aaron Franklin every week make shot, after shot, after shot - where the ball is totally dead going down the left side of the lanes - and little wonder he's shooting in the low 170's in league.
This kind of reminds me what the RIGHT was like at Moonah during the better part of the period between 1995 and early 2001.
Forrest Gump got it right when he said Moonah Bowl was like a box of chocolates.............. :wink:
I could be accused of sandbagging in tournaments because my league averages are 215 and 207 and my tournament average for this year is about 197
But, as they say - that's bowling for ya :cry:

 

[first300]

having fun whilst coaching freinds pissed people off

to the bowling public who know me ,i pulled out of the state team this year and bowled rarely after doing so due to financial and family reasons and my freinds wanted me to come back to bowling to help them with thier game.I will admit to have bowled totally crap for a couple of months but anyone who knows me does know that i do spare alot of splits with my back up reverse hook so i wont ever be taking that out of my game and if anybody thinks i sandbagged for financial gain ,i bowled in a handicap tournament three or 4 weeks ago and i had a 24 handicap and i finished 7th so if i was sandbagging for money,don,t u think i would have won the 100 bucks cash instead of finishing 7th so to the morons that called me what they did ,i would appreiciate it if u would ,if u see me not to ever talk about me or to me again and u know who i mean cause i have helped inprove your game on time to time and i,m glad to say in the last 5 weeks i have been averageing around 230 so the lane conditions have improved some what and my league ave has gone back up to 182 and even if i bowl the rest of the season i can't claim prize fund cause i havn't bowled enough games anyway so iv'e had my say so hopfully that will be the end of that discussion

 

[Sinisterx8]

Sand bagging

To be honest guys i think sandbaggers will be around for as long as they are allowed to be, and to be honest theres stuff all we can do about it. I know it gives the game a bad image coz ive been in that situation before.
I remember a bowl for gold series i bowled in a couple of years ago for example. I bowled my ass off the whole time and never even finished inside the top 50, coz there was bagging going on.

To be honest ive even thought about doing it myself BUT...... then i would only be dragging myself down a level

And as for erratic scores i was bowling in hervey bay and was stuggling to roll a 400 series and i came back to melbourne and bowled at werribee and damm near rolled 700 first time back. And i wasnt bagging???

Bowlings a funny game.
By the way the werribee lanes are ace now

 

[first300]

THANKS DUDE OR DUDETTE
this is the best resonse i have had yet,so sometimes you don't feel like bowling and yes you still bowl ,and yes you do do some stupid things while you are bowling,but it does;nt give someone else the right to bag someone that wants to go a long way ,basiccally all the way to the the pros and being from tasmania it is hard to even imagine the hardness and dispare that i feel inside that i know and feel about where i should be right now and i'm not there cause of money,so thats why some times i muck around and enjoy myself and help other people with their game and basically i have missed my window in bowling but when my determination is on there is knowone in the world that can beat me in my opinion so thats me