SANDBAGGING !!!

[boybrowny]

:x

What evidence does the TBA require to expell someone for sandbagging???

ON the chat room tonight, there was a bloke on MSN who was openly bragging that he sand-bagged and threw an 800+ series with handicap...

I believe that Sandbagging is illegal still is it not?

IF this person has given his name (which i believe he has) - surely the confession is sufficient???


Feedback anyone???

 

[Greg Ward]

I'm not sure about the legality of sandbagging, but I would also like to know if there is any truth in the rumour that TBA are investigating certain De Veer bowlers for supposed sandbagging?

During the De Veer tournament this year one of the most talked about bowling issue was sandbagging.

Looking through the De Veer entering averages of various bowlers, comparing that to their performances during De Veer and the Nationals events including Masters, and also comparing those averages to the averages that they had bowled during previous De Veer tournaments, it appeared to me that certain bowlers performances were significantly higher than their De Veer entering averages. Does that consitute sandbagging?

I fully understand that bowlers lift for certain events, but surely to have a fair and level playing field for a restricted tournament such as De Veer, previous De Veer and National performances may be worth considering, instead of, or in conjunction with league averages to minimise the effect of sand bagging during restricted tournaments.

Just my 2 cents worth.

Greg.

 

[AdrianS]

I've been wondering about the same thing myself for quite awhile, the fact there might be people who are doing an exceedingly good job of 'holding' their averages to a level so they can bowl de veer every year, remember it didn't take long for the restricted tournament scene in NSW to go down the gurgler after people got sick of 165 average players averaging 190 something to get the money. If this sort of thing is going on someone please stop it.

 

[Graham]

What proof have you got that the guy sandbagged ? Unless he openly comes out and says "hey guys i purposely kept my average down so that I may achieve .................. " then what chance have you got.

I was averaging 150odd in the first few weeks at Milton this year but wasn't sandbagging, just really bowling shite.

Unless the dude is stupid and admits it when investigated there is no hope of anything happening.

That's if he is investigated and I can't see it happening.

SAD BUT TRUE

 

[boybrowny]

ADMITTING SANDBAGGING...

Graham,

Apparently that is exactly what did happen!!!!

Androoooooooooo can you shed some light on the ACTUAL CONVERSATION???

Cheers

BROWNY

 

[pauld]

Sandbagging is such a hard area to enforce/police but if you have bowlers that bowl walter de veer over a number of years and have an entering avg around the 150s each year but avg around 200 during the tournament then something should be looked at. If it was only after one tournament then you could put it down to them improving or something since the avg cut off, but if it happens every year then something should be done. Even if it just makes some people think twice about sandbagging. Otherwise it will stop your genuine de veer bowlers from bowling in the tournament if they think they are going up against 180-200 avg bowlers that have 30 to 40 odd pins of handicap.

Anyway thats my thoughts.

Paul

 

[Andrew S.]

Paul you are quite right. And De Veer is rapidly losing credibility as a result of all the sandbagging.
The obvious answer is to increase the qualifying requirement of 18 games to at least 36 games and maybe more. Furthermore the averages should be checked by the TBA State managers and taken out of the hands of the State Adult Committees.
I am not for one moment suggesting that the Adult committees favour their own bowlers. However any chance of this happening might be avoided if the State managers were to oversee the eligibility. When De Veer first came on the scene the purists all said you can only have one prestige tournament, it has to be scratch, and it has to be Rachuig. At the time many of us disagreed. Now, some of us are not so sure.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Andrew S.

 

[Tiger]

If it's the same incident that I think is being spoken about (as raised by "Boybrowny") it occurred in Sponsors League at Moonah last Wednesday Night.
The person in question shot 738/3 with a 41 handicap to give him an 861 handicap series - which I would think is a definate record. :wink:
Last week the same player shot 420/3.
I hasten to add that the shot on the left has been very non-existant in the last few months compared to the shot on the right.

*TIGER thinks* :roll: - About time lefties got it hard at Moonah after the 6-7 years of "Silver platter lane conditions" :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: MUHUHUHUHUHUHUA :evil:

Conditions at Moonah change like you or I change our socks and undies so you could get served up a ditch on one pair and some absolute "dog sh!t" on another pair - that's another possible explanation.
This would most likely be because the lanes at Moonah came out with Governer Arthur Phillip on the First Fleet.
I use a recent example of battling to make a 573 in league a couple of weeks ago then moving two-pairs down after league and shooting 268-280-209 for 757 :shock: To be honest I reckon I bowled better and, hit my target more in the 573 series......it all depends on the pair.

Uncle Graham is correct in what he says though - unless it can be proven beyond reasonable doubt that there was a definate case of "sandbagging" involved - or more to the point "a confession is made/heard by the relevant people" - not a heck of a lot can be done.
Personally I can't stand sandbagging - I still remember my first year of Shield Roll-offs at Moonah when the Coach ordered 3 or 4 players who were already intrenched in the Top 7 on the final day to deliberately throw matches to keep me out of the side to make way for a left hander who was in his final year and who had narrowly missed out a few times.
Didn't faze me at all - I pissed it in, in the end.......but it still left a sour taste in the mouth a bit.

 

[Greg Ward]

Specifically on the De Veer entering averages, here are a few ideas on how to make averages a little bit more even.

Consider modifying competitors entering averages based on:

1) If they have never bowled De Veer before, then just their normal league average (maybe over 36 games) or right up to a week before the actual comp, (but the true SandBagger will still keep their score down during a league if they have a chance). Or also consider using the maximum of their individual state roll off average and their league average as an entering average, or

2) For a bowler who has never bowled De Veer previously, then use their current league average as a base, but also maybe make an All Events entry at the Nationals before De Veer compulsory, and then use that All Events average (if it is higher than their league entering average) plus their league average to form a new De Veer entering average. EG if a bowler has a league average of 160, then averages 180 in the current years National Championships (IE All Events) then bump their entering average for the current De Veer up to either 180 (IE maximum average of either their league or National's All Events entry) or 170 (IE the average of their All Events and their league), or

3) For a bowler who has bowled De Veer previously, then use their current league average, plus their average from the current/past years National Performance, plus their average from any previous De Veer competition. EG if a bowler's normal De Veer (league) entering average is 160, but averaged 190 scratch in last years De Veer, and averaged 180 in this years Nationals All Events, then bump their entering average to either the maximum average for one of those events (IE 190 in this example) or the average of those three events (IE 160+180+190/3 or 177).

4) Have a rolling average based on the previous day’s De Veer performance. EG if a bowler had an entering average of 160, but averaged 180 on day one of De Veer then their starting average for day 2 would be the maximum of previous days De Veer or entering average, IE 180 in this case.

5) To take this all one step further, there would be no reason why this average couldn’t be carried forward to the Restricted Masters the day after De Veer.

I'm sure that there are a few other options and methods. Using the scores people shoot at the Nationals and previous days at De Veer would truly start to filter out the SandBaggers. At the same time it would have a negative impact on the genuine bowler who has a good day on day one of De Veer etc, but maybe that is the price we have to pay.

Greg.

 

[Pedro]

Stay tuned for the amended WDV rules.

 

[GUS]

Tiger Said
I still remember my first year of Shield Roll-offs at Moonah when the Coach ordered 3 or 4 players who were already intrenched in the Top 7 on the final day to deliberately throw matches to keep me out of the side to make way for a left hander who was in his final year and who had narrowly missed out a few times.
Didn't faze me at all - I pissed it in, in the end.......but it still left a sour taste in the mouth a bit.

I think you might have your years mixed up matt. The year you made the team was 1992, same as me, and the person we were throwing games for was David Robinson. As i recall, he aint left handed. Kevin Redman was the lefty and he made it quite easily. I also don't recall being ordered by the coach, as you put it, to throw the games either. This was a collective decision b/w myself, bruv, and Matt Burtt to get Robbo in the team. A very handy left gutter, right gutter by bruv being the highlight. If I have got my years mixed up, then I apoligise in advance. Also, having Kevin in the team was very handy at the shield dinner, as he was the only one over 18. These were the days when there was alcohol at the dinners, and b4 photo licences. Our team had 7 Kevin Redmans that night LOL

 

[androooo]

The incident that is in question is the one that Tiger is talking about.

Basically the person was bragging about his "handicap" series being a record. Wether it is, or not BIG DEAL.....it's handicap, and handicap systems change with every league.

The person don't not "openly" admit that he was sandbagging, but ask anyone that knows this person, will tell you that there is no way that he should be on a 164 average. The person has told me on a few occasions that he is shooting a shot that isn't the shot to score with.

As far as I'm concerned, this is the reason why more and more bowlers are quitting.


JUST MY OPINION!!!!!!

 

[Greig]

Scrap all restricted, handicapped tournaments.
Result - no point sandbagging.
End of problem.

 

[AdrianS]

I like that idea- a lot. Handicaps for leauge bowling, tournaments most pins down wins, the way it should be.

 

[jimcross]

I wish I could use 'sandbagging' as an excuse for my average !!!

 

[TMK]

The Cure.

I still shake my head when i see an entry form for a h/cap event.
I think that "Bowlers"who want to go into a t,ment with a dodgy average/h,cap should be allowed.
After all ,alot of work,and alot of time goes into sandbagging.
Let them bowl the first block..usually 2 games.
Say entering av.was 175..plus the 2 games=new av...new h,cap.
After the next 2 games..new av.recalculated.
Every Centre has a computer..so calculating new averages are just a press of the Enter buttion.
The 175 av.bowler who has shot a 400 in the first block (as all good sandbaggers do)now has an av.of 191 going into the next block....ouch.
How fair is that..the rest of the field know Justice is in progress.
It stops the bickering.
Besides it would make the t,ment more exciting,more level,more even.more Fair.
It would bring credit to Walter DeVeer winners,but more importantly,it would make sandbagging meaningless.

 

[Tiger]

Hi Guys
Yeah I thought that might have been the incident that was being talked about there........The one and only
Just to answer Gus there too, you were absolutely right about the year....it was the 1992 Roll-offs - the final day at Moonah.
No offence taken at all. As you would imagine it.....being TEN WHOLE YEARS AGO..... Where have those years gone...lol Some of the details may have been a little sketchy over time.....what I remember is being well out of contention going in to the final day and being even less in contention starting with 124 and 168 for the first two games........then all of a sudden shooting 5 straight games well over 200 to be in with a chance......I look around and there's some sort of commotion going on behind the counter.....then I'm first confronted by Craig Burtt then moments later by Zelma Riley that players are being ordered to throw games to give Michael Archer the chance to make the side - as it was his final year.....they tell me to "just keep going as you are now and they cant keep you out" I'm that psyched by that point that I couldn't give two-hoots what anyone else was planning - my sole intention at this point is shoot 200's.......I'm later told by more than a dozen people (all locals) about the situation.......but by then I didn't care, I was ploughing on regardless by this stage.
I remember facing Mick the last game of Roll-offs and tripping the 4-pin twice in the 10th frame to beat him.
I ended up fifth, Kev spared to end up seventh and poor old Mick missed out.
I remember feeling a little annoyed about the whole thing at the time but, after a while I thought to myself that the harder it was to make it the sweeter it was to make it.........I got over it not long after.
It wasn't long after that, that Michael quit bowling - never saw him for years until recently - caught up with him at the Casino here and had several drinks with him in the Sports Bar - he asked how all of you were.
A bit of reminiscing about old times if you will......you were exactly right about the 7 Kevin Redmonds that night in Townsville Gus..........I know Bruv certainly used it (Got the photos to prove it :lol: ) and I did too at certain times........I was lucky.....I had an 18-year old chick buying me all the beer I wanted........... :wink: :wink: :wink: :wink:
Shame a lot of the guys from that year don't bowl anymore - they were fun times :twisted:

 

[RobbieB]

I think some of the people throwing the epithet "sandbagger' around at the deVeer players should pull their heads in and think a bit.
DeVeer averages are based on the league shot. Think Atherton, Cairns... Rocky. I'm averaging 20+ pins less here than I was on the friendly ditches in Brisbane, and Currajong is by no means the toughest centre in the North. OF COURSE these people are going to kill their averages on anything resembling a decent shot!
If anyone wants to point the finger at specific people, have the nuts to do so. Otherwise you are tarring the entire WDV crew with the same brush.

 

[bm2]

Thanks Rob - not everyone who bowls WDV has the same access to bowling centres, you highlighted Nthn Qld, and NT also fits into this category. One centre each in Alice and Darwin, the conditions - well like it or lump it! Very often a trip down south for the Nationals is a great boost for your confidence when you get a centre whos lanes actually allow your ball to do what it was designed to do!
We are not ALL sandbaggers, and it gives us the shits to see those who are ruin the name of the WDV tournament.

Broni

 

[Greg Ward]

I have no intention of finger pointing at sandbaggers and that was never my intention from previous posts on this topic.

What I would much rather do is try and encourage thoughts and ideas on ways to improve our game and specifically the WDV tournament and other handicapped tournaments.

In previous posts I mentioned ways to minimise the effects of sandbagging. I also feel these or similar ideas would go some way towards evening out the effect of different home centre lane conditions.

For some bowlers, their home centre average really has very little resemblance to their actual WDV tournament average. I am sure you will find that previous years WDV averages (or averages at National lead up events) are closer to certain bowlers WDV average than their home centre average. As I have said previously this may not constitute sandbagging, it may well be the difference in the lane conditions between their home centre and the tournament conditions or how a bowler lifts for higher level competition.

On a topic like this I feel we are better of trying to be constructive and come up with ways to improve out sport rather than point fingers at anyone in particular.

Enough from me.

Greg.