Rule Clarification

[Jasonguru]

I had a very unsavoury situation in league the other nite that i am hoping somebody out there can shed a bit of light on as to the ruling that is applicable in this instance.

Was a 3 man team league and we were into the 10th frame of the 1st game and a ball of 1 of the opposition came back with a scratch almost halfway round it. I declined, along with my team mates to bowl any further as 1 of my team had her ball gouged by the equipment on another pair the week before.

I asked the opposition team to move to another pair and unbelievably they declined and refused to move. I requested on several more occasions and all requests were declined. I requested a copy of the TBA rule from the bowl and couldn't find any reference to wether it was legal for our team to move to another pair without the other team moving.

After a lengthy period of time the bowl, along with agreeance of both teams moved us to another pair and left the opposition on the pair we started on. We both continued to bowl seperately the remaining 2 games on different pairs.

What i wish to clarify is wether this is legal and the match is actually valid. If it is the case that the match is not valid, can somebody possibly supply the rule that this would apply to.

Thanks to all in advance.

Jase

 

[JWhitty]

How bizarre...

The match has to be conducted where it began, barring any practical reason why the whole match should be moved.

"Because we wanted to" isn't a practical reason, if the other team wanted to remain on the match pair then that is in fact what should happen. You certainly can't go simply moving half the match to another pair...

What you could do, in my opinion, is arrange to "Post Bowl" if your league permits, although if I was that other team captain I certainly wouldn't allow it simply because you didn't want to bowl on this pair any more.

In a strictly competitive league, I would say that the team who left the pair forfeited any frames not already completed. It's certainly not a match over two pairs simultaneously.

Having now laid out my interpretation, I'm going to take up the challenge of finding something in the rules to support it! I'll be back...

 

[JWhitty]

How's this;

RULE 324 SERIES - HOW BOWLED
A natural (two adjoining) pair of lanes will be used in each game of league play. Teams scheduled to bowl against each
other must be in direct competition on adjacent lanes, and will then and there oppose each other, unless a forfeit or
postponed or pre-bowled game is granted.
The first game of a series will be started on the scheduled lane with succeeding games starting on alternating lanes of the
pair.

 

[Andrew S.]

If this happened at Ashmore, the Local Association does not permit any post bowling unless the League Committee decides that rule 338 applies.

 

[Jasonguru]

How's this;

RULE 324 SERIES - HOW BOWLED
A natural (two adjoining) pair of lanes will be used in each game of league play. Teams scheduled to bowl against each
other must be in direct competition on adjacent lanes, and will then and there oppose each other, unless a forfeit or
postponed or pre-bowled game is granted.
The first game of a series will be started on the scheduled lane with succeeding games starting on alternating lanes of the
pair.

read it already. the rule doesnt specify if a pair causes damage to a ball through faulty equipment in the centre. what is worse that in these instances the league doesnt allow any flexabilty due to the association rules with regards to any assistance whatsoever.

to be quite frank the centre is a joke. the conditions are disgraceful, the management incompetent and the association rules, well andrew here is a chance to remediate and make common sense of unique situations.

the way i see it is that the opposition did this deliberately with no consideration or sportsmanship shown towards our team and no regard for their own equipment at the same time.

no closer to a solution here. i have poured through the entire TBA book and nothing specifies what to do in this instance.

talk about baffled!

 

[Sydpies]

I would have thought that your Team Captain would have got a ruling from your League Committee and hopefully they could have put some pressure on the centre to help ease the tension it must have caused between both teams on the night. Isn't that why league have League officers to handle these sticky situations.

 

[Jasonguru]

that happened.well. the opposition was the president of the league for starters. i am the team captain and the league committee and the bowl both dont have a clue what they are doing.

when i requested a copy of the TBA rulebook from the bowl, they didnt even have the complete book! it was missing pages, hence why i have posted all this here to seek more info as i wish to take this further as we were greatly disadvantaged on the night by moving to another pair of lanes that were not oiled or washed, and in this centre i can assure you no oil or wash makes for a really poor condition, even when its oiled its still not much oil.

 

[$$Pricey$$]

how do you know that the other lane that you will swap to wont damage your ball just like the lanes your currently on?

just keep bowling on the same pair and keep the good balls in the bag. only use the dodgy balls.

if i was the opposing team captain i would have just moved though. its not like we are playing for sheep stations!

 

[RobbieB]

Rule 323 covers interrupted games where a match *cannot* be completed on a scheduled pair. This was not the case. Basically, by refusing to bowl on the scheduled pair you forfeit the remaining games.
Demanding to be moved and then complaining about the lanes you were moved to seems a little... strange. Not that it matters, as you forfeit the points anyway.
Seems pretty straightforward to me.

 

[Sydpies]

Have to agree with Pricey, changing lanes would not have guaranteed that your bowling gear would not have got damage again. So you should have decided to finish the game on the original pair, the centre should have offered to fix all damaged balls and hopefully your team could have gone on to win the points. However the rules are quite clear and it would seem that your team has forfeited all points by bowling on another pair of lanes(not scheduled for your match),I am sure there have been plenty of bowlers whose balls have come back with scratches, gauges etc. These things happen where machinery is involved. Part of life, once your committee has made a decision one must go with the flow. Sounds harsh but thats life.
Next week it could be another lane causing another problem. What happens if there are no spare lanes available. Surely the tech could have looked at your lane and sorted the problem and both teams continued bowling and enjoying the great match you guys should had against each other.

 

[SPECTATOR]

In the old Dark days of bowling centres, there used to be very small insignificant signs that stated BOWLERS USE OWN EQUIPMENT at THEIR OWN RISK.
Most centres will fix damaged equipment at their expense. And go to alot of effort to make sure it doesn't happen again!:surrender::surrender:
DO you want them spot check a lane after every cycle?
CHEERS
Ian Strahan
P.S
had alot of balls get damaged even straight out the box thats life!

 

[Fitzy]

No, it is not so clear cut as many of you think it is. It depends on how you interpret rule 323! Try to get a lawyer to comment on the rule!! they will first look with absolute horror and then laugh uncontrollably!!

It is quite frankly, a stupid paragraph.

RULE 323 INTERRUPTED GAME
Any game or series which cannot be completed on the pair of lanes assigned in the league schedule, for any reason, may be transferred to another pair of certified lanes in the same centre on the same or some
subsequent date, or held over for completion at another time. The league officers will decide on the
circumstances for re-scheduling. Any game or series so interrupted will resume from the point of interruption.

I would consider a mechanical fault as being a (any) reason to classify the series as being unable (cannot) to be completed. I am not made of money, as many of the bowlers out there, too, are not made of money. If a mechanical fault is consistantly causing damage to a ball then I am not going to bowl on that lane. Quite frankly you would be stupid if you did!

Resurfacing NEVER brings a ball to an original condition and just having the thought that the centre 'MAY' resuface the ball is plainly not good enough for me to knowingly accepting irrepairable damage to equipment that I paid money for!

My $0.05.

 

[Fitzy]

In the old Dark days of bowling centres, there used to be very small insignificant signs that stated BOWLERS USE OWN EQUIPMENT at THEIR OWN RISK.
Most centres will fix damaged equipment at their expense. And go to alot of effort to make sure it doesn't happen again!:surrender::surrender:
DO you want them spot check a lane after every cycle?
CHEERS
Ian Strahan
P.S
had alot of balls get damaged even straight out the box thats life!

So, you have spent $30,000 of your hard earned cash at a dealer that insists that they put your new car through a detail (you have no choice it's in the condition of sale). There is a small insignificant signs that states USE OF DETAILING is at OWN RISK. Your new car comes back with large dints and scratches down the sides of the vehicle.

You are happy to accept that are you?!?!?

P.S.
Hey alot of cars have been damaged by the forced detail even straight out of the car yard, that's life!

 

[Roysa]

sounds like u should change centres, not lanes.

 

[Andrew S.]

to be quite frank the centre is a joke. the conditions are disgraceful, the management incompetent and the association rules, well andrew here is a chance to remediate and make common sense of unique situations.

Jason I think you're being a little unreasonable.

What conditions are disgraceful?

The bowl is neat clean and tidy and the staff are generally both popular and friendly. Certainlty they aren't rules experts, but then thats not really their job.
The Management is far from incompetant, otherwise the Centre wouldn't enjoy the lineage it gets from massive open play and 40+ leagues. And I know for a fact that there is a huge return rate at the end of every League season.

Maybe you are referring to Lane conditions and from a personal point of view I hate the Friday night condition but if they changed it to what I wanted the rest of the League would have hysterics. (Talk to 20 bowlers and you'll get 20 different opinions as to what is ideal.)

It is, as others have stated, a fact of life that in this this sport balls do occasionally get scratched. That is between you and management, I dont know the official policy I guess each case is treated individually.

As for the Association making common sense out of unique situations, we (The Association) prefer to leave that to each individual League to determine through their reformation meeting.

I go to many reformation meetings every year, some Leagues romp through their rules in about 3 minutes and some League take an eternity going through every possibility.
Just when you think everything is covered along comes something new that no-one had thought of. Your situation appears to be in that area.

As far as changing Lanes in competion because of one-off ball damage some how I can't see a Tournament Director allowing this to happen, and in most Tournaments there is no spare Lane anyway.

I know its happened many times in competition and I've never heard of a serious request to move Lanes.

One thing I do know is that some bowlers and some Centres are totally incompatible. Maybe Roysa is right and you need to find another Centre, Ashmore isn't perfect but it is by no means as bad as you make out.

 

[Phluff]

Rules aside,

I would consider a mechanical fault as being a (any) reason to classify the series as being unable (cannot) to be completed.

A ball getting damaged is not a mechanical fault. It could have been the machine, the ball return, the lane or the track. It may have been a one off because the bowler just happened to bowl at a certain speed and angle to hit something that has never touched a ball before. In any case, every centre I have either worked at or bowled at would have said the done the same thing; Offer to repair damaged balls after bowlers finished, have the technician check for obvious points of contact (most techs can narrow down the problem area after viewing the damage) then have the bowlers continue and monitor for any further damage. If multiple balls show damage, then look at moving pairs.

In the situation mentioned at the start, you are talking about one ball being scratched. With a typical trios team having 5 balls on the lane, thats 1 from 10 after 10 turns each. There is no guarantee that it was going to happen again. (Question for Jason: Did the team that stayed on the lanes have any further damage over the course of the night?)

Resurfacing NEVER brings a ball to an original condition

This is subjective. I've seen some great resurface work and some horrid work, so I suppose this point is partly true. However a large number of bowlers these days have a ball resurfaced out of the box to their own requirements so that they can be sure of the balls finish. This means that if you ever get it plugged or take it in for a full de-oil/resurface "detailing" package provided by the sexy girls in bikinis at your local ball wash you can be sure it'll end up the way it was at the start!

 

[JWhitty]

I would consider a mechanical fault as being a (any) reason to classify the series as being unable (cannot) to be completed.

Since the opponents did complete their series, obviously it could be done... Or in the tense of the moment, can be done.

If a mechanical fault is consistantly causing damage to a ball then I am not going to bowl on that lane.

Because you can't, or because you won't? You can if you want to, use a house ball.

Can't, for mine, means unable not unwilling.

My gear gets chunked up occasionally. It's a bowling ball, and believe it or not with a scratch or gouge it does still roll on the lane and knock pins over just like it used to...

Remarkably, my old cricket bat is covered in cherries, has numerous chips, and a bit of a grazed end from sliding and even a few dings to the striking surface, but it still hits the ball...

Incidentally, my golfing irons also have some evidence of ground contact on the ends... But I digress...

Why are bowlers so precious about a ball that's being hurled at speed into machinery?

Lastly for Jason, how can you be complaining about the pair you moved to being a disadvantage? You're the one that wanted to move...

 

[Geoff300]

The rules quoted herein are correct
However you should have approached the Duty Centre Manager first and said
we are having problems with the equipment damaging our bowling balls 1. can you fix it whilst we wait or 2. can you move us to another pair.
No longer your decision as the Centre would decide for you
If the answer is no you stay where you are and bowl or pack up and go home in protest.

 

[rychenroller]

Seriously the ball marked by machine debate? zzzzzzzz just bowl.

95% percent of machine marks dont affect ball performance anyway. Eevn so, what are the machines? 70's? Sounds like a filler pad edge, maybe a sideplate rivet. 60 second fix for any competent tech.

And the $30,000 car analogy...ridiclous, you arent deliberately driving your car at pins and metal/plastic/urethane machinery at speed. Balls get marked, tracked up etc. Bowlers are just far too precious. If your new car came back from a detail with a scratch, they'd fix it anyway. Just like the centre would offer to fix your ball.

 

[Fitzy]

The analogy was in reference to a previous post not the OP. It is valid in context! Something a lot of people have trouble with in this forum , 'context' . I am not referring to minor scratches and marks, obviously. If you have seen some of the damages that can happen to the ball when there is a fault somewhere on the lane you will know what I am refering too. I have seen a few balls that have near had a quarter of the ball go 'missing'! Might go resurface that one

Because you can't, or because you won't? You can if you want to, use a house ball.

So you'd be happy to be in the line of fire to be called a sandbagger?!?! (view another thread!).


With the first post, what I was getting at with my post is that the RULE is a stupid paragraph. I was not referring to the ACTUAL CASE that Jase brought up. So ... keeping that in mind (I know it might be difficult for some) ...

As I stated earlier IF it [the lane] CONTINUALLY (i.e. not just one ball) damages equipment, there is OBVIOUSLY a PROBLEM with the 'lane' (machinery, pit, return ... doesn't matter where). The rules state 'for any reason', a FAULT would be considered a reason you CAN'T bowl, doesn't matter what/where the fault is.


Phluff, nice response and I agree with most of what you said. I was wrong to use 'mechanical' in front of 'fault'. But I stand by my position. A fault is a reason and it fits with the 'any reason' part of the rule, in my opinon.