Ranking System - Tournament Bowlers

[Michael Little]

Michael, how are you going to improve a system if you don't know where it needs improving? You need to identify the possible faults so that you can change them to something better.

I think I have mentioned a few faults, however with this year, you keep harking on about the more tournaments one can bowl the more points they score. This would hold credence if not for the fact that results are only judged over a very minimal amount of events, 4.

 

[Playa]

Bottom line is that no matter what the rankings system is, the best bowlers will be the ones who perform consistently. The people at the top of this year's rankings are no exception to that rule. Even if they had a system that averaged out points to events bowled, you would still get the same result or very close to it.

The people that bowl in every tournament are the ones that do well consistently therefore are the best bowlers in the country currently.

I want to use a few people as an example here. Carl Bottomley bowled one event this year, going off that he can't be considered as one of the best this year because he only entered one tournament. To be one of the best currently then you just need to bowl in events. Carl however has been one of the greatest Australian bowlers ever in this country over many years so he really has nothing to prove and everyone knows if he did want to come out and bowl in all the tournaments then he is a top 5 bowler easy.

Belmo - Doesn't need to even bowl an event in Australia because he proves himself on tour.

Wayne Chester himself needs to prove nothing, he's won a PBA title.

Those who top our rankings lists are the best ACTIVE bowlers in AUSTRALIA because they win or finish high. Those who don't bowl as many are not the best ACTIVE bowlers in AUSTRALIA. Champions like Belmo, Carl, Wayne, Lovey and many more that have had results over the years in AUSTRALIA don't have to be active to prove anything, we all know how awesome they are and how they are our heroes. These so called best in Australia (Not including proven champions) either need to get active or not bowl and not be called the best.

In conclusion my point is that no matter the rankings system, you're gonna get the best bowlers on top. I'm sure while these people are bowling then they just want to win, the rankings will then take care of themselves.

Shoe up and prove that you're the best like Bec, Sam, George and Mick or don't build a legacy. You've got to compete to actually get rankings points, whether it's 1 event with 1 point or 6 events with 300 points. Get in the game.

No doubt everything I've just said, while incredibly valid, will be ignored.

 

[Roysa]

Perhaps if you idiots bothered to read posts and comprehend them we could have a sensible discussion for once

^^^ maturity at it's finest

 

[the mothership]

^^^ maturity at it's finest

SNAP! One of the most 'sensible' comments in this 'discussion'

 

[gwhiting]

More stupidity by someone who refuses to see reality. That is not what I said at all.

It's about time you started behaving like a adult and stop throwing your tantrums.

You constantly write stuff and then say that you didn't write that.

It's also about time that you treated the bowlers and this sport with some sort of respect.

I refuse to see reality do I. Well at least i have been to most of the ranked events this year and have watched the achievements of these great bowlers.

You wouldn't have even seen most of these bowlers bowl because you are sitting at home and banging everything and anything to do with this sport.

 

[Michael Little]

That's fine George. If you lot who are high on the rankings system are ok with a system that only ranks the top 33 bowlers in the country then you be happy with it. I personally think it is faulty.

lol @ $3000. Take wages, travel, accommodation, food, drinks etc out of that and it is nowhere near $3000.

In case you have not noticed, I haven't even registered for the $10,000 first place tourney in Mildura. In my home centre, I am bowling ok, even if I didn't win I might cash but you need to learn something. It isn't all about cash and ego.

If I may ask, in all seriousness, if you think that you are bowling okay at present, what is your motivation for not wanting to bowl, and putting aside perceived ego and cash? Do you feel you would benefit more from watching other bowlers over bowling with other bowlers etc? Me personally, I would be wanting to support a tournament in my own centre, support the owners of the centre, bowl with other bowlers of various skills levels, talk to other bowlers, learn new things.

And in response to your top sentence, as I have mentioned before, those 33 are probably a core group who always tend to bowl and support national events, I don't think many do so for the purpose of chasing rankings points, but because they enjoy bowling and competing in our national events, I obviously can't speak for everyone though. Obtaining rankings points is a side effect of this, but also allows a snapshot of who is consistantly performing on a national level, because like it or not, there is no other gauge of doing so.

Not sure why you are lol'ing at $3000 for unless a post has been deleted somewhere.

 

[Michael Little]

Bottom line is that no matter what the rankings system is, the best bowlers will be the ones who perform consistently. The people at the top of this year's rankings are no exception to that rule. Even if they had a system that averaged out points to events bowled, you would still get the same result or very close to it.

The people that bowl in every tournament are the ones that do well consistently therefore are the best bowlers in the country currently.

I want to use a few people as an example here. Carl Bottomley bowled one event this year, going off that he can't be considered as one of the best this year because he only entered one tournament. To be one of the best currently then you just need to bowl in events. Carl however has been one of the greatest Australian bowlers ever in this country over many years so he really has nothing to prove and everyone knows if he did want to come out and bowl in all the tournaments then he is a top 5 bowler easy.

Belmo - Doesn't need to even bowl an event in Australia because he proves himself on tour.

Wayne Chester himself needs to prove nothing, he's won a PBA title.

Those who top our rankings lists are the best ACTIVE bowlers in AUSTRALIA because they win or finish high. Those who don't bowl as many are not the best ACTIVE bowlers in AUSTRALIA. Champions like Belmo, Carl, Wayne, Lovey and many more that have had results over the years in AUSTRALIA don't have to be active to prove anything, we all know how awesome they are and how they are our heroes. These so called best in Australia (Not including proven champions) either need to get active or not bowl and not be called the best.

In conclusion my point is that no matter the rankings system, you're gonna get the best bowlers on top. I'm sure while these people are bowling then they just want to win, the rankings will then take care of themselves.

Shoe up and prove that you're the best like Bec, Sam, George and Mick or don't build a legacy. You've got to compete to actually get rankings points, whether it's 1 event with 1 point or 6 events with 300 points. Get in the game.

No doubt everything I've just said, while incredibly valid, will be ignored.

Well said sir.

 

[Casual Observer]

Michael, where in any of this thread does it say people use rankings points as a reason not to bowl tourneys? I believe I said they don't bowl tourneys just to get ranking points.

If you include masters and make it 5 events then it is only 26 people who completed their maximum number of tourneys for rankings points.

Well done I suppose. Those people bowled the 5 events and got the rankings points for each one. Out of all of the bowlers in Australia the tourneys only attracted 26 people to bowl in 5 or more of them and provide a sample that is truly representative of the bowling community and upon which rankings can be based. Lets leave it the same as there is nothing wrong with it.

 

[Casual Observer]

If I may ask, in all seriousness, if you think that you are bowling okay at present, what is your motivation for not wanting to bowl, and putting aside perceived ego and cash? Do you feel you would benefit more from watching other bowlers over bowling with other bowlers etc? Me personally, I would be wanting to support a tournament in my own centre, support the owners of the centre, bowl with other bowlers of various skills levels, talk to other bowlers, learn new things.

I will no doubt be there and I have already offered my assistance off the lanes. I have not decided whether or not I am bowling yet. I bowl because I enjoy it. Not because of rankings points, not because of ego, not because of prize money. I truly do not care if I win/lose when I bowl league which is something that some people can't fathom. I was offered flights etc to bowl Emerson and I declined because it just doesn't interest me. Understand that and you are halfway there.

This has nothing at all to do with the rankings system so we need to get back on topic.

If we know the possible flaws in the system we can do something about fixing them. I say we need to include a more representative sample to make the rankings meaningful. There, I made a suggestion.

 

[Roysa]

Sarcasm noted CO but reality is in this environment not everyone can afford to go to compete in these tournaments.

Without prying too much guys.....

I would love Mick, Sam, Bec or George to itemise exactly how much it costs them to bowl in 5 tournaments that have ranking points applied to them.

These guys dont always win, but they along with many others support the events that are what keeps the majority of us interested. Just because people dont bowl in these tourneys yet doesnt mean people arent currently aspiring to learn from them and have a go themselves.

Respect to those who have the committment to learn, improve and compete.

 

[Playa]

I only have one last post on this thread.

 

[Casual Observer]

It's about time you started behaving like a adult and stop throwing your tantrums.

You constantly write stuff and then say that you didn't write that.

It's also about time that you treated the bowlers and this sport with some sort of respect.

I refuse to see reality do I. Well at least i have been to most of the ranked events this year and have watched the achievements of these great bowlers.

You wouldn't have even seen most of these bowlers bowl because you are sitting at home and banging everything and anything to do with this sport.

Perhaps you need to look at that again and decide who is throwing the tantrum.

What I wrote is plainly there for all to read. I don't need to say I said something else or that I didn't write it.

How about you post where I have said anyone does not deserve to be there or that any bowler has not earned their achievement. You can't because I didn't post that. It is simply something others said.

Michael,

We all know it costs a lot to compete in those tourneys and nothing against the people who do it. Good luck to them if they are willing and able to do so.

Forgetting what you do or do not think about the ranking system, do you honestly think ranking the top 30 or so bowlers in Australia is good enough?

 

[becka_girl]

I would love Mick, Sam, Bec or George to itemise exactly how much it costs them to bowl in 5 tournaments that have ranking points applied to them

It is rare to come out with a profit from tournaments. It all depends on if you drive or fly to tournaments (i mainly drive) and also if you can share accomodation with people helps.

If I drive, I am looking at $100 for petrol, $250 for accomodation, $200 entry and then food for the weekend can be around $70-100. so your looking at $500-600
If you fly and get the flights early enough, you can pay anywhere between $100-$150 one way

 

[Roysa]

Thanks Bec... id also imagine thats a pretty conservative estimate.

Cheers.

 

[Michael Little]

Michael, where in any of this thread does it say people use rankings points as a reason not to bowl tourneys? I believe I said they don't bowl tourneys just to get ranking points.

If you include masters and make it 5 events then it is only 26 people who completed their maximum number of tourneys for rankings points.

Well done I suppose. Those people bowled the 5 events and got the rankings points for each one. Out of all of the bowlers in Australia the tourneys only attracted 26 people to bowl in 5 or more of them and provide a sample that is truly representative of the bowling community and upon which rankings can be based. Lets leave it the same as there is nothing wrong with it.

I can understand your point, I just don't think it is important as to why the system is flawed. As stated in an earlier thread, people have various motivations to bowl in events, and not everyone has wanted or been able to compete in each one. I just happen to think that judging rankings over 4 events maximum plus masters this year is reasonable, this year has been a bit abnormal as events have been clustered together, then not another event for a long period, events close to nationals etc etc. I think you will see next year more people making up the percentage that complete the maximum 4 events to obtain points due to reasons I have listed before as well.

And do you believe that representative events should be included? ie Rachuig or making a National team?

 

[gwhiting]

Perhaps you need to look at that again and decide who is throwing the tantrum.

What I wrote is plainly there for all to read. I don't need to say I said something else or that I didn't write it.

How about you post where I have said anyone does not deserve to be there or that any bowler has not earned their achievement. You can't because I didn't post that. It is simply something others said.

Michael,

We all know it costs a lot to compete in those tourneys and nothing against the people who do it. Good luck to them if they are willing and able to do so.

Forgetting what you do or do not think about the ranking system, do you honestly think ranking the top 30 or so bowlers in Australia is good enough?

You have written on more than one occasion that the reason that bowlers finish on top of the rankings is because they have bowled more events.

I can understand why people like Bec and Sam are unhappy with your comments because they appear to degrade their efforts.

There has been many posts on this thread and everyone seems to attacking your comments because that is the way we are reading them.

 

[gwhiting]

Thanks Bec... id also imagine thats a pretty conservative estimate.

Cheers.

It's not all about the prize money but also the challenge of aging against one another. These bowlers have respect for each other and at the end of the season it's the ranking points that separates them like any other sporting season does.

 

[the mothership]

This is my final 2 cents.

 

[androooo]

I only have one last post on this thread.

View attachment 10732

I up the ante

 

[Michael Little]

Perhaps you need to look at that again and decide who is throwing the tantrum.

What I wrote is plainly there for all to read. I don't need to say I said something else or that I didn't write it.

How about you post where I have said anyone does not deserve to be there or that any bowler has not earned their achievement. You can't because I didn't post that. It is simply something others said.

Michael,

We all know it costs a lot to compete in those tourneys and nothing against the people who do it. Good luck to them if they are willing and able to do so.

Forgetting what you do or do not think about the ranking system, do you honestly think ranking the top 30 or so bowlers in Australia is good enough?

If that is all that have competed in the required events as to which rankings have been based on, then I would have to say yes for the moment. It is up to people whether or not they choose to bowl tournaments, but this does not mean the rankings system is totally flawed because not enough people could find their way to bowl enough tournaments. And as I have also said before, it therefore also doesn't mean that those on top of the rankings are the best bowlers in the country either, but it does provide a measured guide as to who are the most consistant and active bowlers within that particular year.

Looking at an overall perspective, no I don't think that only 30 odd bowlers reaching the maximum 4 tournaments is good enough, but regardless of the system in place, the outcome would more than likely be the same. The issue you have continued to allude to, is not the problem with the ranking system, but the fact that not enough bowlers compete consistantly in enough events and there are some other bowlers out there who haven't reached the four events, but they still do compete in some.