Qld Cup - Prize Fund

[Jez]

Hey All,

GST or Not it doesnt change the fact that the prizefund is alot less.. $2500 is not the difference here it is a bit more.

If Brenton is right in saying it is because Perth has low numbers so AMF dipped into the kitty to keep the payout similar, then i dont really agree with it because now the other tournments are suffering because of it.

I am also worried as the prizefund is still based on 90 entries and they will prob be pushing to get this many......

I also have a question as to the game rate charged???? i mean some practie rates at centres $4 this is a cheaper rate then tournment game rates ?? Surely we can work out a way to get the game rate down..

Just my thoughts

 

[Graham]

GST or Not it doesnt change the fact that the prizefund is alot less.. $2500 is not the difference here it is a bit more.

Your right, there is a difference, but rest assured that nothing dodgy is going on. I would be the first person to jump up and down and if something was. Ive asked Tony to give a rundown on figures so you can all see it.

If Brenton is right in saying it is because Perth has low numbers so AMF dipped into the kitty to keep the payout similar, then i dont really agree with it because now the other tournments are suffering because of it.

Thats completely not true. All tournaments are allocated sponsorship at the beginning of the year and that amount stands for each event. From memory the Perth event had $8500 sponsorship built into it, and AMF paid that plus didnt cut the prize fund all that much, meaning that they put more than the $8500 in, to try and not shaft the bowlers who had paid all that money to travel to WA.

I am also worried as the prizefund is still based on 90 entries and they will prob be pushing to get this many.......

Fair call, QLD has had trouble filling tournaments the last couple of years due to a number of reasons. Trying to get things right (lanes etc) so that people can actually trust that they will get good value when coming up here.

I also have a question as to the game rate charged???? i mean some practie rates at centres $4 this is a cheaper rate then tournment game rates ?? Surely we can work out a way to get the game rate down..

Dont know the exact reasoning behind this one, $4.50 is the standard AMF game rate for Tournaments. Because in a lot of situations the amount of lineage taken in isnt as much as the sponsorship supplied (not for QLD in this instance - but other tournaments definately), then cutting the game rate would possibly mean a cut in sponsorship as well. In an ideal world we would have $0 game rates and we would all bowl for huge prizefunds, but unfortunately it isnt going to happen.

 

[Tiger Bottomley]

GST

Im not sure who it was who asked if GST was being claimed on the prizefund by AMF but here's the answer. NO!!!

AMF are only able to claim GST expended in the operation of their enterprise. THE GST collected on GAMES, Entrys etc is offset against the GST expended on pins, machinery, running costs excluding wages, super etc and the difference is what is remitted. AMF nor anybody else can claim a deduction for the GST paid to the GOVT.

Also I saw listed that someone had said GST was payable on game fees but not prizefund. Seeing the entry fee in total is the fee for your right to compete, AMF must charge GST on the whole amount so GST is being charged on your portion of the prize fund but unfortunately thats just the way the taxation law works.

Finally for anyone thinking about setting up your own association to reduce the entry fee you really need to think carefully. Basically every cost you incur will incororate a GST component which can only be claimed back if you are registered. So instead of saving 10% it's more likely to be 2 - 3%.

Now if you think saving $5 - $10 based on a Super Six entry is worth the time and effort required go for it but I cant see the difference attracting one extra bowler.

 

[wchester]

Re: GST

Also I saw listed that someone had said GST was payable on game fees but not prizefund. Seeing the entry fee in total is the fee for your right to compete, AMF must charge GST on the whole amount so GST is being charged on your portion of the prize fund but unfortunately thats just the way the taxation law works.

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Here is something to think about Carl..
If what you are saying is indeed the correct interpretation of the GST law, then the following would be true as well.

For every dollar that is put into a pokie machine, the ATO must receive 1/11 of that dollar in GST. After all, you have to pay that fee in order to spin the reels. I think the poker machine operators would be broke in a day if the goods and services tax law was applied in the very same way that it is in bowling.

 

[Hippy??]

Slpit the entry fee?

I don't know if this would work but, would it be possible to split the bowling fees and the prize fund so you only have to pay G.S.T. on the game fees???? Just another query for you C.B.
Just to qualify what I mean .... instead of paying one entry fee(games +prize fund) would it be possible to pay two fees for the tourny???? :?

 

[wchester]

Re: GST

Also I saw listed that someone had said GST was payable on game fees but not prizefund. Seeing the entry fee in total is the fee for your right to compete, AMF must charge GST on the whole amount so GST is being charged on your portion of the prize fund but unfortunately thats just the way the taxation law works.

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Here is something to think about Carl..
If what you are saying is indeed the correct interpretation of the GST law, then the following would be true as well.

For every dollar that is put into a pokie machine, the ATO must receive 1/11 of that dollar in GST. After all, you have to pay that fee in order to spin the reels. I think the poker machine operators would be broke in a day if the goods and services tax law was applied in the very same way that it is in bowling.

 

[Tiger Bottomley]

Sorry

Wayne,

I didnt actually realise you knew so much about so much. The gaming machine and gambling sectors have had a special ATO ruling that they pay 1/11 of the profit between bets and payout as GST. If you'd like to findout the reasoning it is all available on the ATO website. Feel free. It basically relates to the investment is your right to gamble. The entry fee is not your right to gamble it is your right to compete. All sporting events that have an entry fee and the organising body is registered falls into the same classification.

As for the splitting of the game fees and prize fund, yes that can work as long as the entity handling the prize fund is not associated with AMF. This would then form a financial transaction which GST does not apply to.

Again as I said in an earlier post I find it hard to see the merit in doing this for the amount of saving.

 

[Jez]

Graham,

Thanks for answering my questions..and please dont think i thought something dodgy was going on because i didnt mean for it to come across like that at all. First thing i thought was that the sponsor has pulled out.

I was also glad to clear up the fact about the Perth issue because that would have been ashame if that did happen.

As for the entires lets hope we get 90 i mean alot of Queensland bowler travel for event so would be good to see 90+ entries.

With the game rate..i still think it could be a little cheaper but that is not up to me or you it is up to AMF.

I would also like to thanks Carl for his post and agree, as i said in my previous post..the GST thing is not really the issue and would be a lot of work to save a few bucks.

 

[wchester]

Re: Sorry

Wayne,

I didnt actually realise you knew so much about so much. The gaming machine and gambling sectors have had a special ATO ruling that they pay 1/11 of the profit between bets and payout as GST. If you'd like to findout the reasoning it is all available on the ATO website. Feel free. It basically relates to the investment is your right to gamble. The entry fee is not your right to gamble it is your right to compete. All sporting events that have an entry fee and the organising body is registered falls into the same classification.

Thanks for clearing that up Carl. I'm alway looking for ways to expand my limited knowledge on all subjects. I guess what I should be saying is just because it's correct doesn't necessarily mean it's right.

 

[Tiger Bottomley]

Agreed

Wayne,

I couldnt agree more!!

 

[brown beach boy]

N.Q Burdekin Open $3000.00 Gauruanteed

Sorry Carl im under the undeerstanding that there is No G.S.T at all on prize fund!. Is that right?.
Also does this mean that my tournemant entry of $175 to win $11750 in prize fund based on 58 entries is a better tourny to go to and at least you will get service when you need it and you wont have to wait 3 mins for a amf staff member to see you waving your hands to get a pin out of the gutter?

 

[xpense]

With this having made its way to the top of the forum, lets keep the debate going, around ways to beat the good old tax man, after all he takes us for all we have anyway.

The idea of paying seperate prizefunds is not that bad an idea when you look at it. It would mean the amout paid in GST would be less, and it should really only be paid by AMF and not the bowlers (as we pay it as part of the entry fee), as GST is supposed to be included in the price, meaning the $4.50 game rate would include GST already ..........wouldnt it.........or is is the rate not including GST despite the LAW saying all prices must include GST or specifiy that GST is not included.............something l have not seen in a bowling alley before.............


graham wrote:

INCOME
90 entries/$280 25200
sponsorship 4000
TOTAL 29200

EXPENDITURE
LINEAGE 5940 (consists of qualifying 4860 & mplay 1080)
P FUND 20790
GST 2520
TOTAL 29250

As the $5940 already includes GST does that mean on these figures we have paid GST twice, as the GST calulation to be paid to the ATO is based on the full income for the event, meaning that this is double dipping.... :? ......l would have thought.........

Based on the above figures,

Income is $29,200 (2 entry fees added togther)

if we paid as 2 fees, the bowlers would pay GST to AMF of $ 540.

$29,200 minus linage $5940 = $23,260 (AMF pays GST from linage collected as price includes GST as required) :wink:

Prizefund increase of $2470

I am sure that this could either be used to lower the entries : divided by 90 = comes in approx $25 reduction, as you have to allow for the lower income with reduced entry fees.

I am sure someone will be happy to say that the GST still needs to be paid, but AMF is responsible for the GST being, and is required to include in its prices that is charges, meaning the $4.50 game rate includes this, and does not need to be paid again.......as is the case it would appear on the figures provided.