NATIONAL TOURNAMENT BOWLERS ASSOC
- Thread starter steve jones
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steve jones
Active Member
No worries Adrian - thanks for the follow up I appreciate it. Like all of us should I treasure and protect my integrity with an iron hand. After all the dust settles, the BS stops flowing and everything else is stripped away - that's pretty much all we have. And of course there are some very good people in the past who can't protect themselves as I can [given I read this forum and can react when things are written incorrectly or without due care]. That's why the strong reaction.
.....now - about this National Bowlers idea???????
Steve
.....now - about this National Bowlers idea???????
Steve
CSP
Member
I believe you need TBA board's input on this situation to be able to help tenpin bowling in general. I brought the NTBA suggestion last year and I believe it has to be the way to go for the future of our sport.
Firstly you need to have a NTBA committee to organise major tournaments and memberships with state sub committee's that organise state tournaments and help with memberships from their particular state, also the trials for the state challenge (Rachuig, restricted, seniors). I will be hard but we need the bowlers to jump on board.
We also cannot just cater for the elite players, we need to have more events for restricted players so they feel welcome and apart of the organistation.
I will be willing to help.
Firstly you need to have a NTBA committee to organise major tournaments and memberships with state sub committee's that organise state tournaments and help with memberships from their particular state, also the trials for the state challenge (Rachuig, restricted, seniors). I will be hard but we need the bowlers to jump on board.
We also cannot just cater for the elite players, we need to have more events for restricted players so they feel welcome and apart of the organistation.
I will be willing to help.
Steve
Apart from the Hawks great win today, here are of my thoughts regarding a possible NBA (National Bowlers Association)
What you are suggesting as we well know should have happened many years ago. If it had the bowling scene today would look very different.
To learn from two other sports where one has succeeded and the other is failing. We need to look at two sports Tennis & Squash.
In Tennis for many years the sport was run by theLawn Tennis Association and the sports was going no where. Then a man named Wayne Reid formed an organisation called Tennis Australia and the players association. The arrangement was that the Lawn tennis association would control the rules of the games and handle most of the administration tasks. Tennis Australia would run all the events hence the Australian Open Tennis tournament. This model works very well in Tennis and Golf where the members own the facitities eg Tennis Clubs and Golf clubs.
In squash like bowling where all the venues are owned by private businesses who mainly are in the business to make a "dollar" as they are entitled to, see little reason way they promote the game past their front door. As we can see with Squash this way of thinking has failed.
Yes I think what bowling needs is a players association, an organisation that is run for the benefit of the players and does not get involved in rules and administration of the sport leave that to the TBA. The players association should run all NBA approved tournaments and not allow its members to bowl in any non NBA tournaments. In return the members must be prepared to give back to the sport eg run coaching days, junior, youth, adult & senior combined events events and any other promotions they are requested to.
But most of all the members of the NBA MUST dress and act in a manner that befits a professional athlete. Be prepared to suffer the consequences if they act outside the association rules. eg Banned from bowlingin events, fined etc. There must be a membership fee that is meaningful maybe $200pa.
An association such as the NBA should deals with sponsors, centre proprietors and TBA regarding events and have a delegate on the board of the TBA. All parties must find ways where everyone gains from these events. As I said all parties must have a Win Win.
Anyway these are just some thoughts to add to the discussion.
Stephen Bell
Apart from the Hawks great win today, here are of my thoughts regarding a possible NBA (National Bowlers Association)
What you are suggesting as we well know should have happened many years ago. If it had the bowling scene today would look very different.
To learn from two other sports where one has succeeded and the other is failing. We need to look at two sports Tennis & Squash.
In Tennis for many years the sport was run by theLawn Tennis Association and the sports was going no where. Then a man named Wayne Reid formed an organisation called Tennis Australia and the players association. The arrangement was that the Lawn tennis association would control the rules of the games and handle most of the administration tasks. Tennis Australia would run all the events hence the Australian Open Tennis tournament. This model works very well in Tennis and Golf where the members own the facitities eg Tennis Clubs and Golf clubs.
In squash like bowling where all the venues are owned by private businesses who mainly are in the business to make a "dollar" as they are entitled to, see little reason way they promote the game past their front door. As we can see with Squash this way of thinking has failed.
Yes I think what bowling needs is a players association, an organisation that is run for the benefit of the players and does not get involved in rules and administration of the sport leave that to the TBA. The players association should run all NBA approved tournaments and not allow its members to bowl in any non NBA tournaments. In return the members must be prepared to give back to the sport eg run coaching days, junior, youth, adult & senior combined events events and any other promotions they are requested to.
But most of all the members of the NBA MUST dress and act in a manner that befits a professional athlete. Be prepared to suffer the consequences if they act outside the association rules. eg Banned from bowlingin events, fined etc. There must be a membership fee that is meaningful maybe $200pa.
An association such as the NBA should deals with sponsors, centre proprietors and TBA regarding events and have a delegate on the board of the TBA. All parties must find ways where everyone gains from these events. As I said all parties must have a Win Win.
Anyway these are just some thoughts to add to the discussion.
Stephen Bell
steve jones
Active Member
Thank you CSP for your input, however in my opinion what you suggest is just not what this entity needs to be. There are already any number of organisations in the bowling market that either do what you suggest - or indeed should do what you suggest. This particular players organisation is not [or should not be] anything like that...it is simply impossible to be all things to all people...it's focus must and can only be to the elite player. It promises nothing else either more or less...it has to be just one thing and only one thing.
Stephen Bell, on the other hand, has the focus of the foundation of whatever the framework of the entity clearly needs to be pretty well mapped out. But then..... no real surprise there...although there are one or two general remarks I'd want to consider with care - not the least of which is the membership fee..which is light-on in my view. But then Stephen and I haven't agreed on anything like budgets for about forty years.
Thank you both for your input - very valuable..
Steve
Stephen Bell, on the other hand, has the focus of the foundation
Thank you both for your input - very valuable..
Steve
steve jones
Active Member
JWhitty - correct - small steps first..the numbers will be higher, a good deal higher, they will need to be - 150 or so players qualify [at the very least in my view] at the upper end of the sport..there are of course an "elite" within this group but the model focus is on the entire upper group not just the cream within. Male and female of course - it is critical woman play a major role in this organisation. Then it's "just" a matter of packaging the product so it's attractive to all of these bowlers. That of course is the trick.
Steve
Steve
Belly good idea with regards your comments, I too feel a membership of around $200.00 would be ideal to kick start a National Body. Why thou do we need TBA to be involved. As mentioned earlier they should handle the rules of the game and let the National Tournament organisation run the events and deal with the various centres. This National body should concentrate ALL their efforts on one thing form and run a National Tournament Association with a 190-195 average to be considered for memership. There are enough graded associations or events to cater for these bowlers but what we want is the cream of the Australian bowlers plus the rising stars to want to become members and bowl with the cream of Australian Tenpin Bowlers.
I am sure that once a committee is formed, that discussion with AMF and the NOn-AMF centres will be very interested in talking to NBA and will be knocking on the door to have some of these events at their centre.
The NBA board should have the following Committee:
NT-1
WA-2
SA-2
ACT-1
Qld-3
NSW-3
Vic-3
With a Chairperson elected by the Board for a period of 2 years only. For this to go forward we need to attract new board members every couple of years, allowing some of the older board members to mentor the incoming new board.
Each State should have a major event, however that might not be practical in the first couple of years with regards to NT & TAS. But as has been proven in the past there is no reason why with some effort these 2 state can not hold one of these events.
As Steve Jones has mentioned that he is very keen at the moment, then it should be put forward to hold a meeting at a venue to be decided with the purpose of electing a NBA board so that Rules and regulations can be drawn up and centres approached for the 2010 season.
I am sure that AMF would jump at the chance to help a National body who would run and organise these events with obviously some form of sponsorship from them and any other centre interested. I would think that it would be much cheaper to help sponsor a NBA instead of the current system in place.
Personally I think a list of names need to be drawn up to encourage them to join the board and impart with their experience with regards Tournaments, IT, Marketing, etc....
As it stands most bowlers dont want to get involved on Board level or committe's however they do want to participate in an NBA and belong to an organisation boasting some of the best Tenpin Bowlers in the World today.....
Okay, lets get the ball rolling :-
I would like to see following nominated for my wish list.
Steve Jones (WA)
Jason Pearson (Qld)
Andrew Frawley(NSW)
Sue Cassells(NSW)
Cara Honeychurch(Vic)
Tony Stoppel(SA)
George Frilingos(Qld)
Mary Flower(Qld)
Gary Crick(Tas)
Jeff Whitty(ACT)
And there must be lots of other who would be fantastic to have onthe NBA board.
I am sure that once a committee is formed, that discussion with AMF and the NOn-AMF centres will be very interested in talking to NBA and will be knocking on the door to have some of these events at their centre.
The NBA board should have the following Committee:
NT-1
WA-2
SA-2
ACT-1
Qld-3
NSW-3
Vic-3
With a Chairperson elected by the Board for a period of 2 years only. For this to go forward we need to attract new board members every couple of years, allowing some of the older board members to mentor the incoming new board.
Each State should have a major event, however that might not be practical in the first couple of years with regards to NT & TAS. But as has been proven in the past there is no reason why with some effort these 2 state can not hold one of these events.
As Steve Jones has mentioned that he is very keen at the moment, then it should be put forward to hold a meeting at a venue to be decided with the purpose of electing a NBA board so that Rules and regulations can be drawn up and centres approached for the 2010 season.
I am sure that AMF would jump at the chance to help a National body who would run and organise these events with obviously some form of sponsorship from them and any other centre interested. I would think that it would be much cheaper to help sponsor a NBA instead of the current system in place.
Personally I think a list of names need to be drawn up to encourage them to join the board and impart with their experience with regards Tournaments, IT, Marketing, etc....
As it stands most bowlers dont want to get involved on Board level or committe's however they do want to participate in an NBA and belong to an organisation boasting some of the best Tenpin Bowlers in the World today.....
Okay, lets get the ball rolling :-
I would like to see following nominated for my wish list.
Steve Jones (WA)
Jason Pearson (Qld)
Andrew Frawley(NSW)
Sue Cassells(NSW)
Cara Honeychurch(Vic)
Tony Stoppel(SA)
George Frilingos(Qld)
Mary Flower(Qld)
Gary Crick(Tas)
Jeff Whitty(ACT)
And there must be lots of other who would be fantastic to have onthe NBA board.
steve jones
Active Member
Thx for the input - I'd have to say we are not exactly on the same page with a lot of it - but that's OK - what I asked for was input and various points of view and it all helps. The entity model we have is pretty much in place, streamlined and not reliant on a web of people and volunteers..it is a pure business model ....and run lean and according to some solid and proven guidelines. But - once again I appreciate the input...keep it coming.
Oh - and I'm sure someone will rightly ask me to table the model for review - well it is neither timely or appropriate to do so now. It will of course come a little down the track once some of the necessary formalities are secured. I'd guess, all being well, sometime in the third quarter. Doug Baker - one of the great foundation members and promoters of organised Open tournament bowling in Australia [and Jeanette's father] used to always refer to time as "the enemy" - in our case it is not - what we have a great deal of is time in the planning. The execution stage will of course be a completely different matter.
Steve
Oh - and I'm sure someone will rightly ask me to table the model for review - well it is neither timely or appropriate to do so now. It will of course come a little down the track once some of the necessary formalities are secured. I'd guess, all being well, sometime in the third quarter. Doug Baker - one of the great foundation members and promoters of organised Open tournament bowling in Australia [and Jeanette's father] used to always refer to time as "the enemy" - in our case it is not - what we have a great deal of is time in the planning. The execution stage will of course be a completely different matter.
Steve
Two things, Firstly thanks for that Joe, that would nicely complete my coverage in this sport excepting seniors (and I'm a long way from that...)
If you're going to name names, I think one Mr Jason Doust would be a better candidate here - if you can convince him that this is more important than his proshop, job, marriage, and league. I think his lovely wife is the main contender there
Secondly, when do you propose that this body will potentially be in place? I realise that's dependant on a whole lot of factors, but is season 2010 actually feasible?
Lastly my profession is in software, so if you need websites or windows software made I might be of some real use, but I'm not a business man. Not that I wouldn't give it my all...
If you're going to name names, I think one Mr Jason Doust would be a better candidate here - if you can convince him that this is more important than his proshop, job, marriage, and league. I think his lovely wife is the main contender there
Secondly, when do you propose that this body will potentially be in place? I realise that's dependant on a whole lot of factors, but is season 2010 actually feasible?
Lastly my profession is in software, so if you need websites or windows software made I might be of some real use, but I'm not a business man. Not that I wouldn't give it my all...
steve jones
Active Member
What I think would be relevant is to hear from some open bowlers and to get their input. At the end of the day the fundamentals can be kicked around to the point where it is just plain boring and a waste of time and energy.
Unless there is some actual interest from the potential playing group - there is not going to be anything but a lot of hot air.
I'm betting we are at that point right now.
Steve
Unless there is some actual interest from the potential playing group - there is not going to be anything but a lot of hot air.
I'm betting we are at that point right now.
Steve
Steve, as you know a lot of the elite bowlers in this country read this forum. I think it is safe to say that a vast majority of them are in favor of forming a NTBA.
I think its important that the tournaments are structured in a way which encourages participation. At the moment, there are several 'ranked' events which are deemed unviable by a majority of bowlers, hence we have the trouble with numbers.
A model of events i had thought about (open to a lot of discussion) is to have:-
1 x Level 1 event each year (possibly the current SPC)
3 x Level 2 events each year (NSW Open, Melb cup, K&K)
All other events are in level 3.
The idea of this is purely from a rankings/points race point of view, with each bowlers result from the Level 1 event, best 2 finishes in Level 2 and best 3 finishes in level 3. This would allow players to participate in 6 events a year and remain competitive on the points list.
The points list would be used for a NTBA Championship, with say the top 24 bowlers playing for an annual title.
The ladies are also going to form a vital part of the organisation, however there numbers at the elite level are not great enough to run a full tour. I think it was mentioned by George previously (in another thread) that ladies recieving 8 pins start a game is common place overseas. I think this avenue needs to be explored.
Reading between the lines from the AMF post, it appears they will pull the pin on the super 6 series at the end of the year. It is important that we get the assoc in place in time for the 2010 season.
Look forward to more discussion,
CT
I think its important that the tournaments are structured in a way which encourages participation. At the moment, there are several 'ranked' events which are deemed unviable by a majority of bowlers, hence we have the trouble with numbers.
A model of events i had thought about (open to a lot of discussion) is to have:-
1 x Level 1 event each year (possibly the current SPC)
3 x Level 2 events each year (NSW Open, Melb cup, K&K)
All other events are in level 3.
The idea of this is purely from a rankings/points race point of view, with each bowlers result from the Level 1 event, best 2 finishes in Level 2 and best 3 finishes in level 3. This would allow players to participate in 6 events a year and remain competitive on the points list.
The points list would be used for a NTBA Championship, with say the top 24 bowlers playing for an annual title.
The ladies are also going to form a vital part of the organisation, however there numbers at the elite level are not great enough to run a full tour. I think it was mentioned by George previously (in another thread) that ladies recieving 8 pins start a game is common place overseas. I think this avenue needs to be explored.
Reading between the lines from the AMF post, it appears they will pull the pin on the super 6 series at the end of the year. It is important that we get the assoc in place in time for the 2010 season.
Look forward to more discussion,
CT
Is it not far more important to set up these events to be able to attract ALL our top bowlers instead of worrying about ranking points.They will come once the circuit is up and running. And with regards to SPC I can not see anyone other than AMF running & sponsoring this event due to the cost involved.
Steve as with most business models you still need a backup of support staff.
As you know from past experience more hands on deck makes the overall job much easier. Having said that a person who can delegate and get the most out of volunteers is a must for this to succeed.
I would be interested to know of the 1000 plus over 190 average bowlers thru-out Australia, would put their hands in the pocket and put up $200.00 plus for membership knowing that there would be 6-8 events around the Various States to bowl in. With a great team of Friendly tournament officials, live scores up dates on Total Bowling, prizemoney guaranteed, entry forms out 2-3 months prior to the event. Encouragement awards to our youth bowlers to compete with the best.
But as you say Steve we need the Bowlers to have their say and put their hands up for this to go ahead.
Steve as with most business models you still need a backup of support staff.
As you know from past experience more hands on deck makes the overall job much easier. Having said that a person who can delegate and get the most out of volunteers is a must for this to succeed.
I would be interested to know of the 1000 plus over 190 average bowlers thru-out Australia, would put their hands in the pocket and put up $200.00 plus for membership knowing that there would be 6-8 events around the Various States to bowl in. With a great team of Friendly tournament officials, live scores up dates on Total Bowling, prizemoney guaranteed, entry forms out 2-3 months prior to the event. Encouragement awards to our youth bowlers to compete with the best.
But as you say Steve we need the Bowlers to have their say and put their hands up for this to go ahead.
FRANKIE FOUR FINGERS
Member
Steve as you have stated previously, there is a bussiness model already in place . With the wording, it appears there is a confidence with its application.
Not knowing what it is, is not important at this stage, But having someone passionate enough about where our sport is going is.
As a tournament bowler I personally cannot think of any better to get our sport going in the right direction. I fully believe membership fees are a reallity.
Whether the fees are $200.00 or $500.00 per annum , The Elite and future Elite bowlers would have to anwser with there pockets and self belief of what they really want from their sport.
Anybody thats lives in the real world of bussiness has a full understanding of cost that appply to the running of any venture.
Having said that all bowlers that want a positive outcome need to put their hand up and say yes I'm in. As you have said, the hot air stage has come around. Let all bowlers out there acknowledge if they want it.
If the bowlers take this step, Than I guess change is on its way.
I for one say yes I'm in.
Cheers,
Frank Bell.
Not knowing what it is, is not important at this stage, But having someone passionate enough about where our sport is going is.
As a tournament bowler I personally cannot think of any better to get our sport going in the right direction. I fully believe membership fees are a reallity.
Whether the fees are $200.00 or $500.00 per annum , The Elite and future Elite bowlers would have to anwser with there pockets and self belief of what they really want from their sport.
Anybody thats lives in the real world of bussiness has a full understanding of cost that appply to the running of any venture.
Having said that all bowlers that want a positive outcome need to put their hand up and say yes I'm in. As you have said, the hot air stage has come around. Let all bowlers out there acknowledge if they want it.
If the bowlers take this step, Than I guess change is on its way.
I for one say yes I'm in.
Cheers,
Frank Bell.
Trotts where have you been.When I was bowling the major tournaments run by the ATBA, it was run by bowlers.Jones, Bell, Brooksey, Froebel,Goodwin,Rollo and the likes.They ran the tournaments very well because they were bowlers themselfs and knew what bowlers wanted.If these guys could organise something like the ATBA I would love to come on board.We need something to kick start our sport that I was so proudly associated with.
Cheers Lovey
Cheers Lovey
steve jones
Active Member
Good on you Paul thx - I believe you are correct - but of course the initial base needs to be significant enough to get over the hurdles that will be in front of the organisation right out of the blocks. Attacking these issues without having substance of membership - whilst most simply sit back in "wait and see mode"..well my experience tells me the outcome is guaranteed...and it's not a good result.
Glad to see you are still involved - you're one the sport can't lose - along with that old faker [or is it "fakir"] Lovell.
Steve
Glad to see you are still involved - you're one the sport can't lose - along with that old faker [or is it "fakir"] Lovell.
Steve
Hi All, I know very little about the history of what happened in the past with tenpin bowling in Australia, but started bowling in a league in 1997 just for fun. I knew very little about tournaments until 2004, but after that I started to get more serious.
I have had to find through my own research people to assist with my bowling but am at a stage where I want to bowl more tournaments. The exposure and entry into more tournaments will only help me bowl better in them, and if the formation of such a body can incorporate tournaments on a regular basis, then I would support it and willing to be part of the membership for an agreed fee.
Andrew C
I have had to find through my own research people to assist with my bowling but am at a stage where I want to bowl more tournaments. The exposure and entry into more tournaments will only help me bowl better in them, and if the formation of such a body can incorporate tournaments on a regular basis, then I would support it and willing to be part of the membership for an agreed fee.
Andrew C
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