DIECAST NUT
Member
well for me it is the cost, 320 is i lot specially around this time, i think the format needs to be change to a re-entry format, so people can budget there money better
just 41 entries...in the Australian Cup
- Thread starter wchester
- Start date
Its people that have the same mindset as you that make these tourny numbers bad.
*clap clap clap*...
Hi All,
I don't have a great deal to say on the matter beyond what has been said in a number of other posts and other threads. But I am always the type to look at the positive in life. So this is my take.
OK the numbers were down, we can all agree to that. For me this was the first tournament I have seen in a very long time. The quality of bowling in the top 16 was really good. The thing that stood out most was the age of the bowlers. Take out three or four and it was the cream the young guns that will carry the sport through for at least the next 15 + plus years. Of the top 16 at least 8 will probably be there again this week end for the Australia Youth Cup.
If you go back 20 or more years most of the bowlers where a lot older than the average age of the top 16 at the Australia Cup this week end.
To me, that was a positive for the sport. Numbers down or not these kids will be the ones our kids will look up to in years to come. Imagine the way we older bowlers looked at Lovey and Wenban and thought, one day. Our kids will be going I want to be like Cowland, Little and Robertson.
Come on, that's exciting to think of.
I don't have a great deal to say on the matter beyond what has been said in a number of other posts and other threads. But I am always the type to look at the positive in life. So this is my take.
OK the numbers were down, we can all agree to that. For me this was the first tournament I have seen in a very long time. The quality of bowling in the top 16 was really good. The thing that stood out most was the age of the bowlers. Take out three or four and it was the cream the young guns that will carry the sport through for at least the next 15 + plus years. Of the top 16 at least 8 will probably be there again this week end for the Australia Youth Cup.
If you go back 20 or more years most of the bowlers where a lot older than the average age of the top 16 at the Australia Cup this week end.
To me, that was a positive for the sport. Numbers down or not these kids will be the ones our kids will look up to in years to come. Imagine the way we older bowlers looked at Lovey and Wenban and thought, one day. Our kids will be going I want to be like Cowland, Little and Robertson.
Come on, that's exciting to think of.
Casual Observer
Member
Has anyone said anything negative about the tourney or is it just a comment on the poor turnout? Everyone appreciates what the organisers do, noone has ever said otherwise.
Instead of resorting to personal attacks constantly why don't you actually read the thread and comment appropriately.
Casual Observer
Member
ok, you even lost me here. How the heck does me saying another bowler makes little difference to Wayne's comment make tourney numbers bad?
Pointless comments like that should be deleted by Admin.
Shayne Melton
Member
I have been reading this thread. I asked Wayne why he didn't bowl. He responded, I was satisfied with his response. End of argument.
Ghorse was obviously disappointed with Wayne’s blunt approach to the poor turnout and responded. You then jumped in and attacked somebody that had put the effort and cash in to go do the tournament. I then asked you if you bowled. I'm guessing that you didn't, even though it was in driving distance for you in NSW. I no longer bowl national tournaments as find them unsatisfying and massive finical risk for my family. That is why I didn't bowl. I do send my wife to national events when we can afford it.
I was agreeing with Jase who had correctly interpreted Wayne's post as a call for how is that we fix this problem.
The only person here making attacks here is you!
jockey
Member
There are a few things to ask:
Did the move from Canberra hurt the event. I would say the answer to that is yes.
The other things is it may be a time for a complete change in direction to first reestablish large numbers at events.
For instance if this was a Seniors event at least 90 odd bowlers may have attended. Next week you will probably get 50+ Youth bowlers at the Youth incarnation of the event. Yet for the Open event held on the weekend the event could not attract 45 let alone 50 bowlers. I agree with Wayne it is pathetic for what was supposed to be the final ranked event of the year.
For next year maybe the whole lot should be combined on the one weekend and an investigation into what would make this viable in the form of finals and prizemoney format / payout.
One thing for sure a ranked event that only attracts 42 bowlers does not promote the sport.
Now for those saying well why didn't you bowl, I firstly say fair call, but would also point out that I haven't bowled a ranked event since the AO last year. I also have just turned 45 so may give the ATBSO a try next year to ease back into tournaments.
Did the move from Canberra hurt the event. I would say the answer to that is yes.
The other things is it may be a time for a complete change in direction to first reestablish large numbers at events.
For instance if this was a Seniors event at least 90 odd bowlers may have attended. Next week you will probably get 50+ Youth bowlers at the Youth incarnation of the event. Yet for the Open event held on the weekend the event could not attract 45 let alone 50 bowlers. I agree with Wayne it is pathetic for what was supposed to be the final ranked event of the year.
For next year maybe the whole lot should be combined on the one weekend and an investigation into what would make this viable in the form of finals and prizemoney format / payout.
One thing for sure a ranked event that only attracts 42 bowlers does not promote the sport.
Now for those saying well why didn't you bowl, I firstly say fair call, but would also point out that I haven't bowled a ranked event since the AO last year. I also have just turned 45 so may give the ATBSO a try next year to ease back into tournaments.
strop
Elite Athlete
I must admitt I get sick of the people saying how cheap it was to bowl 20 years ago and easier for us to attend these events.....Crap...it's no different than today. the difference is back then we wanted to bowl in everything we could get our hands on.
Seems to be a different breed these days..............
We had our mortgages back then, we had to raise our children, we were on lower incomes than today.......nothing's changed. It was all in perspective.
41 bowlers is very ordinary for a so called national event?
How of them were locals...can you tell me??
The Seniors today is Australia's biggest outfit with allot less input of money.....
maybe if it's numbers promoters want, time for a change and put more money into them.
I know it doesnt help the adult scene, but no-one really has the answer to that situation........all speculation and guess work and maybe's.......
Cheers
tony
Seems to be a different breed these days..............
We had our mortgages back then, we had to raise our children, we were on lower incomes than today.......nothing's changed. It was all in perspective.
41 bowlers is very ordinary for a so called national event?
How of them were locals...can you tell me??
The Seniors today is Australia's biggest outfit with allot less input of money.....
maybe if it's numbers promoters want, time for a change and put more money into them.
I know it doesnt help the adult scene, but no-one really has the answer to that situation........all speculation and guess work and maybe's.......
Cheers
tony
What I meant is (sorry was early morning):
If everyone thinks like you do, '1 bowler doesnt make a difference'; then there would be no bowlers!..
50 people think, 1 bowler wont matter, now theres 50 bowlers less. Yeah?
Shayne Melton
Member
Sorry Strop, I have to disagree. I had more disposable income 15 - 20 years ago as an apprentice than I have now as a business owner.
Unrelated this maybe....... I saw the duplex I used to rent 13 years ago for $85 a week. Now it is rented at $210 a week. What I pay myself and my staff hasn't gone up 247% in 13 years. ( I wish it did though ) Maybe I'd have more income if I wasn't on TB hahaha
Unrelated this maybe....... I saw the duplex I used to rent 13 years ago for $85 a week. Now it is rented at $210 a week. What I pay myself and my staff hasn't gone up 247% in 13 years. ( I wish it did though ) Maybe I'd have more income if I wasn't on TB hahaha
Casual Observer
Member
Yep, real close. I suggest you look at a map.
Wayne expressed an opinion and like it or not that is his opinion. This is a bit like other threads where people go off on a tangent over things that have been done to death before.
According to Wayne the attendance was poor. If it is truly an "Australian Cup" and not just named as "Australian" then I tend to agree.
Shayne Melton
Member
According to google maps it is 10 hours. This is little less then what we drove earlier this year for Rachuig roll off. So you didn't bowl because??????????
Casual Observer
Member
Whether or not I bowled has nothing to do with you or this thread but I will indulge you. I didn't know it was on and I would not have bowled if I had known as I have no interest in that event. How does that have anything to do with an opinion expressed by Wayne or is it just another off topic piece of information like most threads?
Why people didn't turn up to tourneys has been done to death on other threads.
41 people for an "Australian" event is not a very good turnout.
Gary, give it a rest will you...All you do is troll this site with off topic crap...NO ONE cares anymore for you limited input...Find another place to nit pic will you...
bluey
Member
Everyone's looking for reasons? I didn't bowl due to my daughter having her first concert performance and my son had a class 6 graduation lunch. Sorry, this was the first Ranked event l missed, will bring a note from my wife. lol.
Seriously though l think $320 before xmas is difficult plus the other associated costs of travelling. $500-$600 weekend, surely this is one of the biggest factors on participating or not?
Well done to Mick Little.
Seriously though l think $320 before xmas is difficult plus the other associated costs of travelling. $500-$600 weekend, surely this is one of the biggest factors on participating or not?
Well done to Mick Little.
Casual Observer
Member
I was asked a question Jase which I answered briefly as I believed it was off-topic. I then went back to topic. Where is the issue in that?
I believe some of the reasons for the poor turnouts in major tournaments is firstly the expense, near xmas is another & the lane conditions is another, lanes are conditions are becoming easier & the better bowlers are able to take advantage of the conditions more then the average joe so people think twice about entering. i dont believe they should advertise the pattern either because it is off putting for some bowlers.
i will be very surprised if the downward trend does not continue
my 2 cents worth
i will be very surprised if the downward trend does not continue
my 2 cents worth
Michael Little
Active Member
Everyone, Wayne was pretty blunt in his first post and could always be a bit more constructive when posting, but the point is still there.
There are probably a myriad of reasons for the low attendance.
Travel and being too far from Sydney? It is probably a tad over an hour from the airport for interstate people, no real difference to driving to wherever Melbourne Cup was this year, yet that was a really well supported tournament. I think there was a generally very poor attendance from those in the Sydney region, most of the usual tournament bowling locals were there. Few of the usual interstate bowlers but also a fair few lacking. Maybe the convenience with Tuggeranong having the sports club and accomodation handy to the bowl is a contributing factor? People can count on others picking them up from the airport 10-15 mins away, saving a little more coin etc?? Rpac, I would love it to be still at Illawarra, less travel for me.
Entry fee? It was a bit steep, but to my recollection, all Australian Cup entry fees have been around this figure, would re entry tournament make it better and entice more entries, how many re entry tournaments do we already have and would we be in danger of going against those by over saturation and how many people spent 300 or more re entering in Melbourne this year?
Format? Is it outdated or can it be tweaked to be more popular, do we install 6 game 2nd cut back in with prize money attached, change formats altogether? I think the format is okay however, unless the lane conditions hold up like they did on the weekend, then no right hander unless you are Belmo and can loft capping at 40 feet will have much success in places like Tuggeranong and perhaps that has a flow on effect for all tournaments and bowlers, not just this one.
Prize money? It has been lowered compared to previous years from starting entry form, but mainly due to AMFs pooling into the Masters, but Michael did a great job securing additional sponsors for this tournament and trying to keep the prize fund reasonably intact. I am sure with those efforts again next year, the previous years prize funds will be back.
Time of the year? Never been on at any other different time of the year, but everyone also has busy schedules, committments etc that come into play. Maybe a slight change of date would make it easier, I doubt it though.
Jase in one of his posts was right, communication is a big factor and am sure everyone knew the tournament was on, but it probably slipped most peoples minds too. And AMF tournaments in the past have been poorly promoted, getting entry forms out late, sometimes only a month before, treating bowlers poorly at events, lack of atmosphere and going the extra step for the bowler, in general you could say they haven't really cared all that much on the face of it and only run the events to appease tournament bowlers to a degree.
The big question though is what to do to improve the situation and I guess, find out why bowlers attend particular tournaments over others, and relate them to possible reasons listed above. For every tourmanet there would be key factors as to why people attend outside of the core group of regular tournament bowlers, so organisers and promoters need to tap into these motivating factors and encourage them further.
There are probably a myriad of reasons for the low attendance.
Travel and being too far from Sydney? It is probably a tad over an hour from the airport for interstate people, no real difference to driving to wherever Melbourne Cup was this year, yet that was a really well supported tournament. I think there was a generally very poor attendance from those in the Sydney region, most of the usual tournament bowling locals were there. Few of the usual interstate bowlers but also a fair few lacking. Maybe the convenience with Tuggeranong having the sports club and accomodation handy to the bowl is a contributing factor? People can count on others picking them up from the airport 10-15 mins away, saving a little more coin etc?? Rpac, I would love it to be still at Illawarra, less travel for me.
Entry fee? It was a bit steep, but to my recollection, all Australian Cup entry fees have been around this figure, would re entry tournament make it better and entice more entries, how many re entry tournaments do we already have and would we be in danger of going against those by over saturation and how many people spent 300 or more re entering in Melbourne this year?
Format? Is it outdated or can it be tweaked to be more popular, do we install 6 game 2nd cut back in with prize money attached, change formats altogether? I think the format is okay however, unless the lane conditions hold up like they did on the weekend, then no right hander unless you are Belmo and can loft capping at 40 feet will have much success in places like Tuggeranong and perhaps that has a flow on effect for all tournaments and bowlers, not just this one.
Prize money? It has been lowered compared to previous years from starting entry form, but mainly due to AMFs pooling into the Masters, but Michael did a great job securing additional sponsors for this tournament and trying to keep the prize fund reasonably intact. I am sure with those efforts again next year, the previous years prize funds will be back.
Time of the year? Never been on at any other different time of the year, but everyone also has busy schedules, committments etc that come into play. Maybe a slight change of date would make it easier, I doubt it though.
Jase in one of his posts was right, communication is a big factor and am sure everyone knew the tournament was on, but it probably slipped most peoples minds too. And AMF tournaments in the past have been poorly promoted, getting entry forms out late, sometimes only a month before, treating bowlers poorly at events, lack of atmosphere and going the extra step for the bowler, in general you could say they haven't really cared all that much on the face of it and only run the events to appease tournament bowlers to a degree.
The big question though is what to do to improve the situation and I guess, find out why bowlers attend particular tournaments over others, and relate them to possible reasons listed above. For every tourmanet there would be key factors as to why people attend outside of the core group of regular tournament bowlers, so organisers and promoters need to tap into these motivating factors and encourage them further.
Australian Open = 68 Entries = AMF Run Event = Poor Turn out = Poorly Advertised...
Arafura Classic = 21 Entries = Private Centre = Poor Turn Out= Poorly Advertised.
K&K Classic = 152 Entries = Private Centre = Excellent Turn out = Very Well Advertised and Tournament Committee to Run the event.
Melbourne Cup = 88 Entries = Private Centre = Good Turn Out = Very Well Advertised and Tournament Committee to Run the event.
Qld Ladies Classic = 53 Entries = Private Centre = Excellent Turn out = Very Well Advertised and Tournament Committee to Run the event.
Mackay Open = 59 Entries = Private Centre = Average Turn Out = Very Well Advertised and Tournament Committee to Run the event.
NSW Open = 116 Entries = Private Centre = Excellent Turn out = Very Well Advertised and Tournament Committee to Run the event.
Australian Cup = 41 Entries = AMF Run Event = Poor Turn out - Very Well Advertised and Tournament Committee to Run the event.
Of the 8 Tournaments Mentioned 4 of them (K&K Classic - Melbourne Cup - Ladies Classic - NSW Open) - would be considered in MY OPINION only, a pass mark of 8 or more out of 10...All things considered, PRIZE FUND, ENTRY FEE, PROMOTION, WELL RUN and have a TOURNAMENT COMMITTEE behind the events... Of those 4 only 1 is held in an AMF Centre.
Of the other 4 (2) are run in and AMF Centre and only one was well advertised of those two with 1 having a Tournament promoter doing his utmost to get those numbers (Australian Cup)...
I still believe that the whole Tournament scene will need a Tournament Committee to try and run these events close to a success...They also need to ADVERTISE THEM and run Squad Lists on a site that MOST Tournament players frequent and visit most days of the week...
It goes without saying that the more something is in your face the more you will do something about it...How many of you get an email, forget to answer it or get to it at a later date and then it gets shuffled down the list and forgotten about a few days later...Also when its in your face more you tend to give it more thought and look at flights more often to see if travel expenses can be cheaper than last time you looked...
Just a few points too consider other than just entry costs...
Mary Flower i know you will be reading this, give them your thoughts on why some of the numbers to some events are down....
Just my 2 cents worth
Arafura Classic = 21 Entries = Private Centre = Poor Turn Out= Poorly Advertised.
K&K Classic = 152 Entries = Private Centre = Excellent Turn out = Very Well Advertised and Tournament Committee to Run the event.
Melbourne Cup = 88 Entries = Private Centre = Good Turn Out = Very Well Advertised and Tournament Committee to Run the event.
Qld Ladies Classic = 53 Entries = Private Centre = Excellent Turn out = Very Well Advertised and Tournament Committee to Run the event.
Mackay Open = 59 Entries = Private Centre = Average Turn Out = Very Well Advertised and Tournament Committee to Run the event.
NSW Open = 116 Entries = Private Centre = Excellent Turn out = Very Well Advertised and Tournament Committee to Run the event.
Australian Cup = 41 Entries = AMF Run Event = Poor Turn out - Very Well Advertised and Tournament Committee to Run the event.
Of the 8 Tournaments Mentioned 4 of them (K&K Classic - Melbourne Cup - Ladies Classic - NSW Open) - would be considered in MY OPINION only, a pass mark of 8 or more out of 10...All things considered, PRIZE FUND, ENTRY FEE, PROMOTION, WELL RUN and have a TOURNAMENT COMMITTEE behind the events... Of those 4 only 1 is held in an AMF Centre.
Of the other 4 (2) are run in and AMF Centre and only one was well advertised of those two with 1 having a Tournament promoter doing his utmost to get those numbers (Australian Cup)...
I still believe that the whole Tournament scene will need a Tournament Committee to try and run these events close to a success...They also need to ADVERTISE THEM and run Squad Lists on a site that MOST Tournament players frequent and visit most days of the week...
It goes without saying that the more something is in your face the more you will do something about it...How many of you get an email, forget to answer it or get to it at a later date and then it gets shuffled down the list and forgotten about a few days later...Also when its in your face more you tend to give it more thought and look at flights more often to see if travel expenses can be cheaper than last time you looked...
Just a few points too consider other than just entry costs...
Mary Flower i know you will be reading this, give them your thoughts on why some of the numbers to some events are down....
Just my 2 cents worth
emmtee83
Member
Its a real tough gig these days organising and running a tournament - I tip my hat to Michael and anyone else attempting to take on this task (which in general goes unappreciated and has very little satisfaction to go with it).
After running the SA Sport Circuit for 3 years and having the same small group supporting it, the circuit folded due to (on a whole) a lack of support and enthusiasm from the target audience. I read earlier that if prizemoney was better, entrants would come.....I disagree. I used to think that and I structured the SA Sport Circuit around this methodology. The return on investment was VERY GOOD (better than 1:3 payout, in fact) but my small group of bowlers did not get bigger....
I don't know what the answer is but we need to attract bowlers in different ways - lower entry fee? means you would have to get an exceptional game rate from the centre, or satisfy the centre's charges and get plenty of cash sponsors on board - either options are very hard to pull off.
Well done to Mick for the win though =)
After running the SA Sport Circuit for 3 years and having the same small group supporting it, the circuit folded due to (on a whole) a lack of support and enthusiasm from the target audience. I read earlier that if prizemoney was better, entrants would come.....I disagree. I used to think that and I structured the SA Sport Circuit around this methodology. The return on investment was VERY GOOD (better than 1:3 payout, in fact) but my small group of bowlers did not get bigger....
I don't know what the answer is but we need to attract bowlers in different ways - lower entry fee? means you would have to get an exceptional game rate from the centre, or satisfy the centre's charges and get plenty of cash sponsors on board - either options are very hard to pull off.
Well done to Mick for the win though =)
