How much of an issue is "Blocked Lanes"
- Thread starter tonx
- Start date
i suggest you try and find the article on bowl digital about the WTBA one ball tournament. This event only had 7.2ml of oil on the lane, 1/3 of the product that you would have in your average house lane pattern. This then also required less cleaner to get it off the lane. Therefore, yeah Kegel would suffer a but. But do you know the best part??????????
John Davis was the man behind it. Who's he??? The head of Kegel. So i cannot see kegel suffering too much. If he is willing to want to see the "sport" change for the better and do something about the balls to turn it into a "sport" again and put the emphisus (?) back on the bowler, i can't see it being a problem for them. Afterall, in the states, it's just like car sales, most of the money is in the after care. Servicing machines etc.
As far as the balls go, no, i don't beleive that it will hurt it too much. There would be a set scope for how the balls could be constructed. All the ball makers would try and find the limits within this scope in different ways, and stamp their name on the ball. I mean, if a company sell 200 each of 5 different ball, but the sells 1000 of 1, which is better for them? I can tell you now it would be the 1000 of one. Less costs to make 1 ball then 5. Less staff to pay, less promotinal material, so on and so on. I mean, at the end of the day, how many different Brunswick plastics and urethanes were there in the 80's? Enough to give people a choice. Balls now adays a like cars. I mean with a car you add mag wheels, and instantly it is a differnt car in the model range. Rather than sell it as an option. Balls, the keep the same weight block, change the colour and the name, BANG, new ball on the market it feels like.
tonx
New Member
What about the people who enjoy a bit of a challenge instead of getting "honor" (LOL) scores handed to them like mummy buying them an icecream?
A 600 series shot on a tougher pattern means more to a bowling purist than a 750 series thrown where the ball is guided to the pocket by the lanes.
NOTHING comes close to throwing an honor score on a tough shot in this sport. You did what you did because you did it, not because the lanes got you hitting the headpin 12 shots in a row.
Removing the balls isn't the answer. The balls are here to stay and are an effective adjustment just like any other aspect. As previously mentioned, balls being purchased circulate money back into the industry on so many levels. Making a bowler learn how to use what he has is what the sport should be about.
Sport bowling isn't really THAT much harder than a house wall, it's just a different type of game. One that requires execution of shot rather than just throwing the ball to the dry to score. Jeff Carter (current touring pro) who averaged 261 in a single season of league apoligised for the average. He was disgusted that someone could even contemplate averaging what he did over 69 games.
People that want the softest shot possible need to grow some nuts. Until they do, other sports are going to continue laughing at bowling as a joke for a sport. Name another sport where they do their best to help you reach the goal or target if you whinge enough. I certainly can't.
A 600 series shot on a tougher pattern means more to a bowling purist than a 750 series thrown where the ball is guided to the pocket by the lanes.
NOTHING comes close to throwing an honor score on a tough shot in this sport. You did what you did because you did it, not because the lanes got you hitting the headpin 12 shots in a row.
Removing the balls isn't the answer. The balls are here to stay and are an effective adjustment just like any other aspect. As previously mentioned, balls being purchased circulate money back into the industry on so many levels. Making a bowler learn how to use what he has is what the sport should be about.
Sport bowling isn't really THAT much harder than a house wall, it's just a different type of game. One that requires execution of shot rather than just throwing the ball to the dry to score. Jeff Carter (current touring pro) who averaged 261 in a single season of league apoligised for the average. He was disgusted that someone could even contemplate averaging what he did over 69 games.
People that want the softest shot possible need to grow some nuts. Until they do, other sports are going to continue laughing at bowling as a joke for a sport. Name another sport where they do their best to help you reach the goal or target if you whinge enough. I certainly can't.
You never know tonx. They might put Travelaters in the 100 meter sprint in the olympics so people dont have to train they just show up once a week and they beat records that still means they are record breakers >?
tonx
New Member
You never know tonx. They might put Travelaters in the 100 meter sprint in the olympics so people dont have to train they just show up once a week and they beat records that still means they are record breakers >?
After I run Sub 10seconds, im going to turn pro at tennis... Federer doesnt stand a chance when they let the grass on his side grow to 6 ft, and they put a wall up just behind the net... If that fails, (which probably will, i'm prett bad at tennis) I'll get my Chinese midget friend to kick him in the shins between games.
Heavier Pins, Blocked Lanes, Easy Scoring Conditions, Exotic Weights etc, etc, etc.
The only people in the World complaining about all the problems in Bowling are the Bowlers themselves, nobody else in the World Cares.
I have Conditioned lanes for over 30 years and drilled Balls for over 30 years, heres a little insight, nobody in Australia knew what they were doing 30 years ago. I've read about the Good Old Days where scoring was not easy, here's another insight. the lanes hardly got Washed, it was'nt till the 1980's did they get washed on a regular basis. As for drilling Balls, how does 1/2oz Finger 1/2oz Positive Side sound, very common Drilling Technique, of course now we know it was a useless Weight Pattern as the Balls were not always as controlled those days, meaning you could actually be Drilling a Ball with Negative Weights without knowing it. This combined with unwashed Backends had a problem where the Ball would'nt tip over so hit like a 5 pounder.
I read where George complains about scoring 251 average for a few games, I don't see a problem with that, if everything is done right this is what will happen, I did lanes for a Tournament at the old Hurstville Bowl where Peang Nepomeceno averaged 249, this was in 1985 on Lacquer, with no Block! and he Bowled with an Angle.
We either Go with the Flow or we try to trick Nature and the end result will be the Spinners will inherit the Bowl.
willey
The only people in the World complaining about all the problems in Bowling are the Bowlers themselves, nobody else in the World Cares.
I have Conditioned lanes for over 30 years and drilled Balls for over 30 years, heres a little insight, nobody in Australia knew what they were doing 30 years ago. I've read about the Good Old Days where scoring was not easy, here's another insight. the lanes hardly got Washed, it was'nt till the 1980's did they get washed on a regular basis. As for drilling Balls, how does 1/2oz Finger 1/2oz Positive Side sound, very common Drilling Technique, of course now we know it was a useless Weight Pattern as the Balls were not always as controlled those days, meaning you could actually be Drilling a Ball with Negative Weights without knowing it. This combined with unwashed Backends had a problem where the Ball would'nt tip over so hit like a 5 pounder.
I read where George complains about scoring 251 average for a few games, I don't see a problem with that, if everything is done right this is what will happen, I did lanes for a Tournament at the old Hurstville Bowl where Peang Nepomeceno averaged 249, this was in 1985 on Lacquer, with no Block! and he Bowled with an Angle.
We either Go with the Flow or we try to trick Nature and the end result will be the Spinners will inherit the Bowl.
willey
Potter
lost
renta
Member
Gf has stated what I have been bleating about ...The customer is the most important element here not conditions.Keep them happy & the dollars keep coming in ..... Dont get me wrong I enjoyed SPC & hope that next year another tough pattern apppears. But only a small percent of bowlers bowl tourneys & it's really silly to expect all centres to abide to tough conditions.
To many would leave without a doubt..
To many would leave without a doubt..
GeorgeF
Hypercell = Hyperhook!
I'm sorry if I came across negative but my 26yrs years in the sport has shown me that whilst a lot of things change (technology, lanes, pins, oil), some things remain the same.
Bowling is
1. A Business
2. A sport
in that order......
I would like tougher patterns just as most elite bowlers do but I'm a realist and I have come to accept it is not in the best interest of business owners to lay down tougher conditions. Tournament bowlers and people who are requesting these tougher patterns represent less than 1% percent. It's not in the best interest of the business owners to cater for this niche select group.
Maybe something will change in the future but I wouldn't be holding my breath.
Good luck on your quest, people's efforts to run SPORT tournaments is commended, BUT if you look at the big picture you'll soon realise tournament bowlers don't rate a spec.
Bowling is
1. A Business
2. A sport
in that order......
I would like tougher patterns just as most elite bowlers do but I'm a realist and I have come to accept it is not in the best interest of business owners to lay down tougher conditions. Tournament bowlers and people who are requesting these tougher patterns represent less than 1% percent. It's not in the best interest of the business owners to cater for this niche select group.
Maybe something will change in the future but I wouldn't be holding my breath.
Good luck on your quest, people's efforts to run SPORT tournaments is commended, BUT if you look at the big picture you'll soon realise tournament bowlers don't rate a spec.
wchester
Bowling Tragic
The real reasons why bowling participation is in a downward spiral.. and it has nothing to do with the scoring environment
1) Lack of free time for recreational pursuits outside the home.
2) Bowling has priced itself out of reach of the average person.
3) People no longer socialise.
4) The internet dominates our lives.
1) Lack of free time for recreational pursuits outside the home.
2) Bowling has priced itself out of reach of the average person.
3) People no longer socialise.
4) The internet dominates our lives.
Tiger
Active Member
Yes - to points 1,2 and 3.
In all the years I've been associated with bowling, I have to say, I've only ever known three people to give the game away because it's too easy - and one kept coming back and bowling in any case.
I see an awful lot of people around the city each day that I know used to bowl in the past, and I quite often stop and have a chat with them.
The ever-increasing price of the game, lack of time available to commit to playing in leagues and tiredness of the nitpicky politics that weighs the sport down are the biggest reasons why they aren't interested in coming back.
Plus, when you're out of the game for awhile, most find other interests and tend to lose interest in bowling after awhile - once those people are gone from the game it's near impossible to get them back.
BELMO
Member
Georgie,
What about the future of bowling.......
If the trend continues then soon we will all by hanging the shoes up right next to yours.
Thats something im not ready for till im ready.
Clearly bowling is doing something wrong??? Easy lane patterns are not bring bowlers back and they are not keeping them either, so why have them SO EASY?? What benefit does that have for bowling (and its image) or the bowling centres owners???
If bowling was portrayed with some class/skill, and tournament bowling was on the back page of the telegraph, whilst you say you would retire in 2008, i know you would not quit 100%.
Plus if bowling had huge media attention the $$$ would follow.
Golf, Tennis, any other sport for that matter that the media loves is there because the general population respect what they do. I cant go and hit a golf ball and score as low as Tiger and i sure as hell cant crack a forehand down the line at 160km/h like Rodger, but bowlers can have higher series than i do, have more 300's than i do, and i am considered one fo the worlds best......those people who can now score higher than me can now say....."Its not that impressive, i can do that!"
BANG, thats the sound of the respect balloon that follows that sentence!!!!!!!!
If i can do something that some else can, im not too impressed, watching someone do something i wish i could......gets me interested in that sport.
Georgie, you may be right about the game not changing, but for bowlings sake, i hope it does!
Oh and like i said before, i dont want the average of players to drop 50 pins..... just 10.... is that too much????
I love a good debate
Belmo
ps- Just bowled in the world's largest bowling centre in Japan, 156 lanes, it was 258 lanes but the 4th floor was closed due the owners laying an easier pattern on the other 156....noone wanted to make a spare up stairs
pss- The above PS is not entirly true, it really is 156 lanes, and was 258 lanes untill last year and the 4th floor did close but it was because of the cost of lane oil.
psss- Ok that wasnt true either, everything is true except the oil part. They closed the top 52 lanes because it was getting hard to fill the first 156 (over 3 levels) let alone pack it out on the 4th!
pssss- I told the truth that time (i think)
What about the future of bowling.......
If the trend continues then soon we will all by hanging the shoes up right next to yours.
Thats something im not ready for till im ready.
Clearly bowling is doing something wrong??? Easy lane patterns are not bring bowlers back and they are not keeping them either, so why have them SO EASY?? What benefit does that have for bowling (and its image) or the bowling centres owners???
If bowling was portrayed with some class/skill, and tournament bowling was on the back page of the telegraph, whilst you say you would retire in 2008, i know you would not quit 100%.
Plus if bowling had huge media attention the $$$ would follow.
Golf, Tennis, any other sport for that matter that the media loves is there because the general population respect what they do. I cant go and hit a golf ball and score as low as Tiger and i sure as hell cant crack a forehand down the line at 160km/h like Rodger, but bowlers can have higher series than i do, have more 300's than i do, and i am considered one fo the worlds best......those people who can now score higher than me can now say....."Its not that impressive, i can do that!"
BANG, thats the sound of the respect balloon that follows that sentence!!!!!!!!
If i can do something that some else can, im not too impressed, watching someone do something i wish i could......gets me interested in that sport.
Georgie, you may be right about the game not changing, but for bowlings sake, i hope it does!
Oh and like i said before, i dont want the average of players to drop 50 pins..... just 10.... is that too much????
I love a good debate
Belmo
ps- Just bowled in the world's largest bowling centre in Japan, 156 lanes, it was 258 lanes but the 4th floor was closed due the owners laying an easier pattern on the other 156....noone wanted to make a spare up stairs
pss- The above PS is not entirly true, it really is 156 lanes, and was 258 lanes untill last year and the 4th floor did close but it was because of the cost of lane oil.
psss- Ok that wasnt true either, everything is true except the oil part. They closed the top 52 lanes because it was getting hard to fill the first 156 (over 3 levels) let alone pack it out on the 4th!
pssss- I told the truth that time (i think)
James Mc
Team Storm Australia
Hi All,
Belmo I think you hit the nail right on the head.
I was only speaking with Eric Jang about the exact same thing last week.
What other sport can a weekend warrior get anywhere near the scores of a professional? Golf good analogy. If a once a week player were to match up with Tiger for a match what would the score be? And all other sports are the same. That is except for bowling.
Someone like Pete Weber or Norm Duke, both are arguably among the best in the world could win a PBA tournament and average 220. We would have possibly over 100 players in Australia that average higher than that in league, and I know most of us know there is a difference. But the people that matter the general public do not understand there is a difference. This is main reason why we lack a little respect as a sport.
There is no mantle to place these great players on as most people can achieve the scores they can.
Just my thoughts but I think Jason you are spot on.
Have a great time in Japan and best of luck in Panama.
Regards
James
Belmo I think you hit the nail right on the head.
I was only speaking with Eric Jang about the exact same thing last week.
What other sport can a weekend warrior get anywhere near the scores of a professional? Golf good analogy. If a once a week player were to match up with Tiger for a match what would the score be? And all other sports are the same. That is except for bowling.
Someone like Pete Weber or Norm Duke, both are arguably among the best in the world could win a PBA tournament and average 220. We would have possibly over 100 players in Australia that average higher than that in league, and I know most of us know there is a difference. But the people that matter the general public do not understand there is a difference. This is main reason why we lack a little respect as a sport.
There is no mantle to place these great players on as most people can achieve the scores they can.
Just my thoughts but I think Jason you are spot on.
Have a great time in Japan and best of luck in Panama.
Regards
James
jason_doust
The Bowling Geek
Bugger you Belmo and James! I was composing a reply along the very same lines! The U.S. is full of players who really believe that their 220 average in Ditchville makes them as good as Norm Duke.
Yes, they're idiots, but Joe Average off the street doesn't know that or worse, thinks any idiot can be that good!
It's not a far cry to say the same is happening of players in Australia. If you're bowling at somewhere like Cablockture or on the Great Wall of Aspley (they're not the only ones), you could easily be fooled into thinking you are better than you are.
On this point, kudos to the management of AMF Belconnen, who had the guts and integrity to dismantle their 10 board wall. The first week was pretty ugly, but with a pinch of tweaking, they now have a respectable house shot. Still quite easy, but not stupidly so. Averages are down, but players seem to have knuckled down to the challenge admirably. Makes me believe in a good future for bowling.
Cheers,
Jason
p.s. I also wanted to answer a few good points made in an earlier post.
Yes, they're idiots, but Joe Average off the street doesn't know that or worse, thinks any idiot can be that good!
It's not a far cry to say the same is happening of players in Australia. If you're bowling at somewhere like Cablockture or on the Great Wall of Aspley (they're not the only ones), you could easily be fooled into thinking you are better than you are.
On this point, kudos to the management of AMF Belconnen, who had the guts and integrity to dismantle their 10 board wall. The first week was pretty ugly, but with a pinch of tweaking, they now have a respectable house shot. Still quite easy, but not stupidly so. Averages are down, but players seem to have knuckled down to the challenge admirably. Makes me believe in a good future for bowling.
Cheers,
Jason
p.s. I also wanted to answer a few good points made in an earlier post.
Lefty Can't Carry
Member
It would be easier, quicker and cheaper to change the pins for the day & afternoon ladies & school kids leagues than change the oil patterns.
Secondly, all the ball manufacturers have invested heavily in technology, and they want a return on their investment.
First there was rubber, then urethane, now reactive resin. You can't stop progress.
Last night at Boronia, we bowled with new pins. They have only just been installed earlier this week, so I am told.
Already, a few high games were bowled, but on the league as a whole, struggled with carry. The pins were the same type & model (AMF SeriesII) but because the bottoms of the pins are relatively square, they were not falling as easily as when they are worn.
As I said before, they are identical to the previous pins, and I presume the same weight.
It would be interesting to see how much different reaction was if the pins were an ounce or two heavier.
I still say this is the cheapest way for the centres to start to lower averages.
The better bowlers will still find a way to knock the pins down, and those who aspire to get better will look to learn.
jason_doust
The Bowling Geek
Besides, companies would just make stronger balls to combat the heavier pins. When Ebonite made the Crush (Urethane) in '93, it had a high Co-Res and sent the 6 around the neck of the 10 like no other ball in history. I suspect that a quick increase of the coefficient of restitution in ball fill material would get the corners out on heavier sticks.
Potter
lost
It would be easier, quicker and cheaper to change the pins for the day & afternoon ladies & school kids leagues than change the oil patterns.
QUOTE]
easier................what? how manny lanes do u have down there 3? 24 lane center it would take ages to change the pins, and changing oil pattens only take like/ well not that long am i wrong?
I recall Tuggeranong actually experimented with some kind of plastic composite pins a while back, they were tough - you had to actually put the ball in the right place to carry. They just didn't fly as much, I don't know if it was weight or simply composition...
End result though was generally lower scores on that pair for a while.
No, no there isn't really a point, just that it's been tried and dismissed. Mr Zickman was behind that if I recall correctly, he may know how it went statistically...
End result though was generally lower scores on that pair for a while.
No, no there isn't really a point, just that it's been tried and dismissed. Mr Zickman was behind that if I recall correctly, he may know how it went statistically...
Werribee
Werribee
26 lane centre (52 boxes of pins) @ $250 per box (dependiing on US exchange rate) = $13,000.00. If you buy 2 sets of pins (one heavy and one not so heavy) = $26,000.00
Time taken to change pins = about 3 hours (?)
Cost of re-oiling lanes (inc washing) = approx $60 plus time of staff to change pattern on computer, run pattern in over lanes etc...
mmmmm...... what would I rather do?
Time taken to change pins = about 3 hours (?)
Cost of re-oiling lanes (inc washing) = approx $60 plus time of staff to change pattern on computer, run pattern in over lanes etc...
mmmmm...... what would I rather do?
Easy Tiger
Active Member
Neither because they're both a pain in the ass and bowlers will still whinge anyway.
"I want a challenge - your lanes are too easy"
"Your lanes are too hard - I don't want to concentrate after 50 hours a week at work"
