Handicap for Walter De Veer

[kahlua_666]

Handicap is back for Walter De Veer tournament.

Thanks to everyone sending email and faxes to the Rules and Ethics Committee they saw fit to bring the handicap back to De Veer.
Unfortunately for some the average cut-off didnt change. But it does give those lower average bowlers a chance now.

Good luck to all those rolling off, hopefully see you in Melbourne.

Cheers

Pam :Fade-col:

 

[Andrew S.]

I don't think that's such a good move. By all means keep the average ceilings as they were last year, but changing to a scratch format at least gave it some credibility.Now it will become a sandbaggers picnic again.
A better idea would have been to instruct all the States to conduct handicap roll-offs, whilst leaving the tournament itself scratch.

 

[Chucky]

Andrew what would the point of having a handicap roll off whilst leaving the averages the same and a scratch comp???

If this happened you would turn out with states having 130-150 average bowlers making the team bowling off against 180 averages bowlers from other states. it would just make it werse. The team full of 180 avg bowlers would have a walk in the park.

What ever the handicap/average is should be what the roll off is.

I think the decision made here is a good one averages below 169/159 have handicap than later bring in another comp aimed at the classic averages that is scratch. As the difference for a bowler from 169 to 185 is not that mutch and is gettable for some people. Where if you had a 110 avg bowler in your team going scratch against a 165 avg bowler there would be no contest.

Granted no matter what they do there will always be the people who sandbag to take advantage of the rules. They do it to look good and get attention, or just for the sheer fact that they are not good enough to do it on there tallents alone. these people can just drop there average and make it into the lower diffision then blow every one away. There are cheats in every sport around the world, if you can find me a sport with out cheats tell me, but we have to face the facts that they are there.

Decisions on rule changes should be done for the betterment of the sport not for the attempted ousting of the cheaters as they will always be there.

This is where i think alot of wasted time is spent, People look at the problem but not the solution. They consentrate on cheaters/sandbaggers but they do not concentrarte on how to better the sport we all love.

Chucky

 

[Andrew S.]

Chucky if all States held a handicap roll-off then the make up of the teams should be roughly even. Thus all States would have a mixture of high and low average bowlers. This would place more emphasis on the actual line up and make the competition more intense.

 

[Chucky]

Andrew its all good saying that there will be a mix and for most of the teams this could happen but when that 1 team turns up with all 165+ avg bowlers and easily wins, then you will have just as many complaints if not more about how that is unfair. Give the lower avg bowlers a chance to compete, don't just shoot them in the foot.

stephen

 

[Andrew S.]

Actually Stephen what you are saying is right. I hadn't considered the possibility that all the roll-off entrants for a State might only be higher ave bowlers. But I guess that could happen. I still don't like the idea of a handicap event though.

 

[Animal]

Handicap for Walter de Vere

Whilst I don`t normally get involved in too much discussion (arguments) on subjects on the web, The ATBSO in 2003
successfully introduced a Restricted Interstate Challenge to it`s
annual Championships Week. The system we devised, while not
entirely foolproof, certainly works a whole heap better than any
System previously used, and it was a roaring suggess to boot.
I will not go into the argument on here, but if anyone is interested
enough, I would be only too pleased to outline how it works.
I am contactable at all times on my mobile - 0403352501, or by
e-mail - animal@microed.com.au
Lawrie Hill
President
ATBSO - QLD

 

[Andrew S.]

Lawrie if you just give us a brief description it will save us having to go through it second hand (and possibly getting it wrong) when its posted here!
Please tell us - there is a huge amount of respect for ATBSO.

 

[Animal]

Handicap for Walter De Vere

I`ll try - OK here goes.

After setting roll-off date - set average cut-off date.
169 for females - 179 for males, as of cut-off date.
Because all nominees wish to make the team, they
will bowl their best in the roll-off to make it.
The average they bowl in the roll-off is the average
they carry into the Interstate Challenge. As I said
previously, It`s not foolproof, but it`s a whole lot
better than every other format going around.
cheers
Lawrie

 

[Feral]

I wish to support what Animal proposes for the De Veer. It worked in a fair and equitable manner for the ATBSO graded Team selection in 2003 and the system should be adopted by the Rules and Ethics Committee as the compulsory format for the De Veer roll offs. As Animal says, it's hard to "sandbag" when you are busting your guts out to make the team. Top it off by having to use the average you achieved AT SELECTION for the De Veer and it makes for a somewhat more equitable process.

Feral

 

[hsv]

hey guys the ATBSO system could work,, it could be worth a try. not all bowlers who try out will be 160+ average bowlers, lower average bowlers (like me) should also be considered.

 

[kahlua_666]

Lawrie........... :? Can you please tell me is the 2003 ATBSO tournament you are refering to is a scratch tournament but restricted by entering average?

 

[Andrew S.]

Sounds like a really good format. Would be interesting to see some opinions from bowlers who have played under it.

 

[Animal]

Handicap for Walter De Vere

No Kahlua - it is not a SCRATCH Tournament.

ATBSO run a Graded Interstate Challenge ( Mixed Teams )
somewhat along the lines of the Walter De Vere contest.
It is strictly Handicap, and it is bowled with Handicap. The
Challenge is run over 2 days, whereas our Open Interstate
Challenge is contested by both Male and Female Teams
over 3 days. Our Open and Graded Masters ( male & female ),
and our National Championships all go together and make
a very busy but enjoyable 12 days of bowling each year
which we like to call Seniors Week. Hope this explains a
little of how we operate.
Lawrie

 

[Morwell Tenpins]

Wd Veer

Personally I believe Walter De Veer was set up to give ALL graded bowlers a chance to represent their state and hopefully want to improve their game which would eventually saw bowlers make it into the scratch tournaments etc.

The fact that some states have managed to flaunt the spirit of the game is sad. :evil: :evil: :evil:

The averages now are I believe aligned with the "B" grade averages for the championships. This should eliminate all those bowlers who have managed to infiltrate walter De Veer teams with high averages. :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: In fact I will go so far as to say that several members of the Vic side should not I repeat should not have been allowed to bowl from the time they qualified to the nationals the averages jumped over 20 pins. I am sorry but averages do not jump 20 pins in 3 months. :roll: :roll: :roll:

The State associations should be held more accountable for all averages entered and maybe bowlers league averages should be increased from what was 18 games to 30 games which would give all association a better idea of what real averages might be. :idea: :idea: :idea:

As for the Sandbaggers :x :x :x they are a blight on our great game.And maybe if we had a national year book (on the TBAL web-site) :idea: :idea: :idea: with all league averages and Tournament averages as well we could then maybe start getting rid of these sand baggers. :wink: :wink:

Perosnally I am glad that the powers to be have kept the hcp in place. As this will allow a 130 average bowler to have a go. It is the lower average bowlers who we are trying to encourage to compete thereby opening new avenues for the improvement of his/her game. 8) 8) They would be then bowling in their State championships as well as the national Championships. This is what bowling is about encouraging new bowlers to participate and help promote our great game. :shock: :shock: :shock:

Yes over the years I have witness some sad moments in bowling. But I can honestly tell you all that there are lot more great moments that I remember with pride & pleasure.I was involved with Walter De Veer right from the start with Daryl Holt and have never bowled WDV because being an honest 8) 8) bowler my average was far too high. But I had the pleasure of coaching the Vic side for 7 years straight it was 7 years of pleasure and excitement.And most of the Vic bowlers felt the same way. It was a chance to make new friends both from your own state as well as Interstate. :roll: :roll: And that is what made/ makes WDV so successfull and enjoyable for so many bowlers who normally would not get the opportunity to represent their state.

 

[Feral]

To Andrew S and Kahlua_666.

Refer also to my post at bottom of page 1.

I was honoured to have been part of the ATBSO Queensland Graded Team (3 men and 3 women) in its inaugural year 2003. To get there I had to compete in our State ATBSO Championships in June last year. I had to enter singles, doubles, mixed doubles, teams and mixed teams. This was 15 games in total.

My entering average was my highest league average (170) as at 31 March.

The limit for Graded men was 179 average and 169 for women.

After the 15 games, my total pinfall plus handicap (90% of 200 (=27) ) was the determining score of whether I finished in the top 3 men to make the GRADED team. This score was something over 3000 which meant I bowled above my highest league average. It was in fact 174, and that is the handicap I had to use in the Graded team challenge, not the 170. NO SANDBAGGER COULD HAVE MADE THE QUEENSLAND TEAM because of the numbers competing and the intense gut busting bowling to get there. Some great bowlers were desperately unlucky. Some bowled so well that they made the OPEN team!!!!

In the Interstate Challenge I bowled against players with averages ranging from about 110 to 179. This proved that low average bowlers CAN PARTICIPATE (and that's what's all about) on an even footing. I saw NO EVIDENCE OF ANY SANDBAGGING FROM ANY PLAYER FROM ANY STATE OR TERRITORY. While some players found the conditions too dry (generally typical in QLD) the competition and cameraderie between all teams was fantastic. (Just a plug for the fabulous Tassies here too!!!) :-({|=

By examining the Challenge results of individual players from the ATBSO website www.atbso.mpcs.com.au you will get some idea of the success of the ATBSO selection process and the range of individual averages across all states. That is why I strongly support Lawrie's postings and reiterate my view that the Rules and Ethics Committee of the De Veer take the ATBSO system on board.

Cheers. :lol:

Feral

 

[Chook]

Whilst i have not bowled in De Veer roll offs, family members of mine have only to their disappointment of missing out by a few pins.

It was said that if "sandbaggers" werent bowling my relative would have made it. That may have been the case!!

But my point being:No matter how much argument there is about "sandbaggers" they will not go away and all you can do to prevent them is to bowl the best you can on the day BOWL LIKE YOU'VE NEVER BOWLED BEFORE and pray that you hav done enough to make the team!

GOOD LUCK TO ALL THOSE HOPING TO MAKE DE VEER TEAMS IN 2004

 

[Andrew S.]

Good post Morwell.
It is hard to stamp out sandbagging and whilst I honestly think it hasn't yet happened in a Qld. Walter De Veer squad, we will be keeping an eye on the averages of all our Walter De Veer bowlers.

Any sudden or unexplained increases will be investigated and accompanied with a please explain letter. I'm not saying a sharp increase couldn't happen, but if it does that bowler will be under scrutiny.

 

[CIO]

Any sudden or unexplained increases will be investigated and accompanied with a please explain letter. I'm not saying a sharp increase couldn't happen, but if it does that bowler will be under scrutiny.

Thats actually a good idea. The De Veer coaches and/or officials from each state should keep an eye on their own team for the year AFTER they were in the team. That way, they could monitor any huge average jumps and deal with it how they see fit (perhaps by not allowing them to try out for the team the next year).

I already hear some of you saying "yes, but what good will it do after the fact?". Well, it probably won't do much good for the first couple of years. BUT, it will stop re-offending sandbaggers (if we ban them from the next years comp). And when word gets around, then perhaps the idea of sandbagging will not be so prevalent.

 

[Morwell Tenpins]

WDV

The good thing about this conversation is that finally it is in the open being discussed by bowlers who have the game at heart.
8) 8) Now all we need is for some of our State officials to get off their cubicles and make this event even greater. WDV have the most registered bowlers in Australia who are able able to compete if they want to.
:roll: :roll: :roll: Yet over the years my biggest disapointment has been with officials :evil: :evil: not getting on with the job of promoting any or all of the state team competitions. :twisted: The same goes for some of our bowlers :x :x they don't spread the word to fellow bowlers because they could miss out if too many bowlers have a go at the trials.

Maybe that is why the Seniors thru-out Australia are doing so well. because they don't rely on state bodies to run their tournaments they run it themselves.

Yes we know we are never going to please everyone, but we should all remember we bowl or are involved in bowling because we love the game and the people we mix with. If not then please explain why your still here. :idea: :idea: :idea: