finger pitches

[simo]

i have a question for you ball drilling gooroos

on my finger pitches they are layed out to 3/4 i am only feeling the ball on the very tip of the fingers.
now i have on a rating of 1-10 in flexability i am a zero so i have no flexability at all do you have any sugestions on how i can combat this before i drill my new balls

thanks simo

 

[RobbieB]

3/4 forward, reverse or side?
If you can post a scan of your drill spec it would be helpful. In general, right handers will have middle finger laterals close to 0 and ring finger lateral close to 5/8 right. Forward and reverse are adjusted for flexibility, as is span - are you saying you only feel the ball on the tips in the swing or at the release point? 'Burning' on the very tips of the fingers at release is a classic sign of overspanning.
Draw a line across your fingers half way between the first and second joints. With your thumb in the ball and the fingers laid comfortably across the holes, the line should be within 1/8" of the edge of the finger holes. If you have low flexibility, err on the short side in terms of span length.
If the spans and pitches are correct, you will feel the weight of the ball evenly on the full pads of both fingers in the swing. Pressure at the joint line only indicates too much forward pitch on a span a touch short. Pressure on the back tips of the fingers (nails digging into the back of the holes) generally means too long a span or too much forward pitch, or both. Too much reverse pitch is rarer than too much forward, and if the span is correct you will feel like you are losing the ball off the fingers at the release.
If you have to squueze the ball to hang onto it in the swing, then the span or more likely the thumb pitches are wrong, or the hole is too big. Most people have far too much reverse or too little forward in the thumb. Get it checked by a good driller - the perfect thumb fit is one where the weight of the ball pulls it off of your thumb at the bottom of the swing without having to hold onto it in the swing. The feel in the swing is as if you are holding the ball against the thumb with you fingertips, not squeezing the thumb at all. It can take a LOT of experimenting to get to that feel but it is well worth it.
The span and thumb pitches are the most critical measurements - get them right then experiment with finger pitches until you find the right mix of power and comfort.

 

[simo]

hi rob

fingers are 3/4 forward laterals are 1\2 and 1\2 thumb is 0 spand is a 1/8 short

thanks rob

 

[GBS]

Hello

Finger Pitches 3/4 forward (towards the thumb or palm) with a flexibility of zero means the span must be super short. With zero flexibility you need reverse pitch.

With 3/4 forward the ball would feel aweful, I am thinking.

Spans play a huge part in determining pitching, so does ball weight and the number of games you bowl a week.

I hope this helps

 

[RobbieB]

Unless you are a crow, 1/2L - 1/2R laterals on the fingers cannot fit properly. The middle finger for virtually everyone bends towards the base of the thumb, the ring finger to the right of the thumb. You will probably need a small amount of left pitch if you go to reverse pitch in the finger, as opening the grip up tends to point the finger a little further left, but 1/2 each way is simply a sign the ball driller has no idea.

What are your spans?

For the thumb pitch, it depends on the angle your thumb folds across your palm, and it is not something that can be done on the net. However, as a rough guide, if the centre of the thumb closes toward the centre of the gap between the middle finger abd ring finger you will have zero lateral. Most right handers need some right lateral pitch, but this will depend on the amount of forward or reverse pitch you use as well.

Can you swing the ball without squeezing with the thumb, or do you drop it unless you grip with it?

 

[tonx]

Definition of forward and reverse pitch. Forward pitch is any hole pitched TOWARDS the centre of your span. Reverse is any hole pitched AWAY from your span. That means a forward thumb pitch and a reverse finger pitch both are angled in the same direction.
Definition of lateral pitching. Any hole pitched to the left is called left lateral. Any hole pitched to the right is called right lateral.

Please use these definitions as the only way that you describe pitching. Using away/towards/open/closed/any of the other irrelivant ways to describe pitching is confusing, annoying and up to interpretation. Also, the use of punctuation is always nice in being able to read a question. I'm not as fussy as wchester about this, and the punctuation doesn't need to be 100% correct, but even some sort of effort would be nice.

Also when describing your span, please use either a "cut to cut" measurement (cut of actual thumb hole and cut of fingerhole) or an "actual" measurement, which is cut of actual thumb hole and middle of fingerholes. Your span plays a huge role in deciding fwd/rev pitch of your thumb, along with your length of thumb, your flexibility of thumb, and your skin texture. Saying 1/8th short doesn't help at all.

My first advice is see a qualified and experienced ball driller in your area, because they will likely solve the issue on the spot. Don't read this as the "guy who has been drilling balls the longest" because with 30 years of "experience" comes AT LEAST 20 years of overspanning, excess reverse in the thumb and excess forward in the fingers. Seek the ball driller that has had the most success with current day bowlers. Based in South Australia, Brenton Davy is the most up to date driller in your area.

Your cause is most likely overspanning even though you believe it to be "1/8th short"....... unless you really did mean 3/4 forward pitch in the fingers and to be honest I've seen worse, so it wouldn't surprise me.


p.s. Respectfully Mr Buckley, while most of what you commented is correct to achieve both fingerpads flat against the front of the grip someone with no flexibility needs far too much reverse pitch in the fingers (talking 2-3 full inches of reverse) which opens up a whole other course of issues. A better goal to work for in this scenario is reduced pressure on the fingertips while finger and thumb are fully inserted into the ball.

Perfection is sometimes unattainable, but the closer you get, the more likely you are to achieve excellence.

 

[nev25]

Definition of lateral pitching. Any hole pitched to the left is called left lateral. Any hole pitched to the right is called right lateral.

.

Left in respect to what??

 

[tonx]

Left in respect to what??

The Centre Line, sorry.

Centre Line = line that intersects the middle of the thumbhole and the centre of the bridge.

Bridge = little bit of ball between each fingerhole

 

[Roysa]

Left as in the hole leans (for want of a better word) to the left i presume.

 

[RobbieB]

My first advice is see a qualified and experienced ball driller in your area, because they will likely solve the issue on the spot. Don't read this as the "guy who has been drilling balls the longest" because with 30 years of "experience" comes AT LEAST 20 years of overspanning, excess reverse in the thumb and excess forward in the fingers. Seek the ball driller that has had the most success with current day bowlers. Based in South Australia, Brenton Davy is the most up to date driller in your area..

Agreed. I have been arguing with 'established' ball drillers for almost 30 years over spans. Even now, with the vast amount of info available, there are still many drillers who seem to think that white knuckles are fine.

p.s. Respectfully Mr Buckley, while most of what you commented is correct to achieve both fingerpads flat against the front of the grip someone with no flexibility needs far too much reverse pitch in the fingers (talking 2-3 full inches of reverse) which opens up a whole other course of issues..

That is very possibly true too, but that degree of inflexibility is fairly (very?)rare. There are other solutions for very inflexible first joints. But yes, sometimes you're just stuck with what you have to some extent.

A better goal to work for in this scenario is reduced pressure on the fingertips while finger and thumb are fully inserted into the ball.

Perfection is sometimes unattainable, but the closer you get, the more likely you are to achieve excellence.

Yep. Bigger grips often help with inflexible hands too. Sometimes it is possible to relieve pressure by cutting out the backs. Lots of tricks. As Tonx said, go see Brenton, and be prepared to experiment a little to get the right feel. It's well worth it in the long term.

 

[simo]

hi every one

sorry my mistake

fingers are 3/4 reverse
laterals are 1\2 L and 1\2 R
thumb is 0 spand is a 1/8 short
thumb size 31/32
my spand being right handed middle finger 4 5/8 ring finger 4 3/4 thats cut to cut
my thumb is 3 1/8 inches long skin is smooth
flexibility thumb bends to the middle of my fingers
and i have a low rev rate being that i am a stroker

i have all the local ball drillers drill for me and have never been able to feel the ball on the pads of my fingers

hense why i am asking for advise on here

and thanks for all your advise it is much apreciated

simo

 

[tonx]

Place your thumb in the ball, and your fingers over the top of the holes. If you use a gumby stick put that on first. Don't stretch your hand so the webbing between your index finger and your thumb is tight, but rather enough to keep it taught. What pressure you use with this test will go a long way to what pressure your hand is under when inserted into the ball.

Where do the creases of your fingers sit in relation to the fingerholes.

Also, I need clarification on : thumb is 0 spand is a 1/8 short. While I assume that when you say spand you mean either span or spanned, there is no measurement of a thumb "1/8th short" and a thumb doesn't have a span so I don't understand.

 

[simo]

lol

thumb pitch is 0
span is a 1/8 short

with a relaxed thumb and hand my finger creases sits half way accross the inserts about a 1/8 past the edge of the quter pitch

 

[tonx]

Again, a little difficulty understanding, but I understood the most important part.

Here is the breakdown of each measurement, and the areas you should consider changing to get more feeling of security at the release (which is what you are really after when you say "feel the pads")

Fingers are 3/4 reverse
Span is 4 11/16ths average
Thumb pitch is 0 forward/reverse

Your thumb pitch appears to have less reverse than your span, your skin texture and your length of your thumb call for. If you are comfortable keeping this pitching (ie: if any more reverse pitch you drop the ball) then you need to reduce the span to compensate. If you are comfortable with the idea of adding some reverse pitch to the thumb, then you may or may not need the amount of bevel you currently have. Try to keep the bevel of the thumb hole to a minimum that is comfortable for you, because too much will make the ball feel like it falls off at the point of release.

While 3/4 reverse in the fingers may "sound right" in theory for your flexibility, for a stroker that type of pitching is going to give you a completely different feeling each and every time you bowl. On the rare occasion your grips are going to feel perfect, but the next day feel super sloppy. It will also make the grips from ball to ball feel very different even if they are the same size. A better solution for you is likely reducing the reverse on the fingers to a more "normal" 3/8ths reverse or so, and reducing the span of each finger by a furthur 1/8th or so to help with the low flexibility.

To sum up the changes you should try on an older ball to give you more release security:

Fingers are 3/8ths reverse
Span is 4 9/16ths average (perhaps even less, keep reducing until there is very little discolouration of your fingertips)
Thumb pitch is 1/8th reverse

Also, as Robbie suggested the 1/2 L/R lateral on the fingers sound nasty. The shape that you are asking your fingers to bend in is in the shape of a "Y" (although I will admitt the "crow" analogy made me giggle a little) which will usually cause wearing at the inside part of the first finger joints. I suppose if there is no damage then it doesn't really hurt for you, but I would be using extra skin like its going out of fashion with those laterals. You probably went with those laterals due to an older drill press and fear of holes meeting inside the ball which may cause bridge cracking. Ask yourself what is more important: Your comfort and safety of your hand or a bridge cracking on a bowling ball.

These changes won't give you complete pad to grip contact, but it will improve your release and your feeling at release. Your only solution with such low flex fingers if you are desperate to get contact is to use the "semi-nub" grip, which will require a furthur reduction in span due to your fingers sitting in a little deeper than an oval or lifter insert. Reducing the span may take a couple of weeks to get used to, but the end result will be worth the effort.

It's the best I can do on the internet.

 

[RobbieB]

Hi Simo,
Tonx has some good advice there, but if I understand your post correctly then you are saying your first joint line is only 1/8 past the edge of the grip? Draw a line across your fingers half way between the first and second joint linesand measure where that falls on the ball with your thumb in and fingers laying across the holes.

Doing this on the net is difficult, but I would try 1/8 left/1/4 revcerse in the middle finger, and 5/8 right/5/16 reverse in the ring, oval inserts (not 1/4 pitch ones) and cut 1/4 off the spans.

Thumb pitch is something you have to see to measure. Is it 0 lateral as well as 0 F/R?

Make sure the grips are not too tight, another very common problem. You should not have to force the fingers in and should have just a tiny bit of 'wiggle room'.

 

[BigDaz]

probably a bit late here but theres a sweet diagram for finding your lateral thumb pitch.

you hold a coke can/water bottle and compare your thumb to the diagram.

Mo Pinel has even said this diagram is accurate for use.



example

This gives me about 1/8" to 3/16" left lateral.

 

[Roysa]

Random question...

Does the size of the can or bottle matter?

 

[BigDaz]

Im not 100% sure to be honest Roysa. But u imagine, if you grip something too small it will send your thumb more inside (right lateral) and vice versa for a large object. Everybody has different sized hands. I just tried a spray bottle i have sitting here its smaller than a coke can, the angle of my knuckle was larger but the angle from 1st knuckle to the base of my thumb was very similar.

But the larger object i tried (cd spindle cover) made quite a large difference, giving me what would be about 1/2 left lateral haha.

Water bottle/coke can is about the spot i reckon. Big hands = maybe a bigger object. small hands maybe use a slightly smaller object.

I pitched mine via this method and it feels good.

 

[willey]

BigDaz, as I first started Drilling Balls in the 1960's, I can tell you, that procedure, was around then. Those day's we had them grab your Wrist, same result.

Latter day checking was done by holding the persons hand and using your thumb at the inside base of thier thumb, squeeze, than checking how far the thumb can travel towards the Centre of the hand. This will give you a starting point for lateral pitches, meaning you can't put a right lateral pitch in for someone who has an extremely inflexable thumb or they callus badly on the inside, or if they are very flexable than they are very forgiving and can withstand any pitch, e.g; pitching right lateral to make them turn thier hand around the Ball on release.

You can vary a persons track by changing thier finger or thumb pitches. e.g; more reverse on the fingers will keep them behind the ball more and bring up thier track closer to the fingers, more forward will keep them in the ball longer which inturn can lower thier track.

willey

 

[sam6t3]

Hi. Sorry to barge in, but By looking at the picture below, can anyone give me advice for MY thumb pitches.

Here are my specs. (Never had aa feeling of good release. Never came out of the thumbhole clean)

Stroker. Axis tilt 12 to 13, Rotation 40 degs.

Skin is totally dry with very little flexibility, and the thumb hole size is 31/32, thumb length is 3 an 1/8. Due to span mistake, I used to have severe pain alongside of my arm. Went to Sarge Easter grip. Never looked back as it made the pain vanished from the face of the planet.

At the foul line, my thumb rubs at 10 o'clock on the hole and on first thumb crease on thumb's finger side. Further, the nail of thumb rubs so As I get blister at 7 o'clock on the thumb nail. My current thumb pitches are 1/8 LL and 3/16 Forward.

Any advice mates?

Here is grqb a bottle test pic.