ECCC Rolloffs

[millman]

Well Terry what you say about sandbagging in ECCC is a sad part of the game but I dont see how toughening the conditions will eliminated it at all. Also in our case (female) we werent given the luxury of choosing our divisions and as it currently stands half of the women sitting in the open side are graded bowlers. (some of them none too happy about it either) I know it's early stages but we'll see.....Also honestly can you imagine the atmosphere during the ECCC when the huge games are NOT being bowled!! Spectators and participants want to watch big games.....with strings of strikes not strings of spares. We dont want giant ditches but decent conditions....

Hey Scott..............YOU ROCK!!!!!

 

[Craig Ryan]

Terry I have a masive issue with what you have said here as I am bowling in a leauge that uses the sports patterns therory and let me tell you its garbage I am ashamed on what my average is currently and i am also embrassed that I have to nominate for the graded side because I am not a graded bowler so explain to me how having the sports patterns will fix these so called sandbaggers all this has done is ruined the fun side of east coast

And Tonx as for your "bowling for a shirt with your states name on it" comment i find that very offensive and in very bad taste and what your saying that you would be more than happy to make a scratch mens side averaging 170 (pigs Ass) I bowl to represent my state not just a shirt and i enjoy it

That is the way it works mate. Those who bowl in sports leagues will always have a lower average but at the end of the day (provided they go about it the right way) they will end up the better bowler.

Unfortunately for every one of you Scott, you will get 3-4 who are trying to cheat the system. I can't think of a solution that can eliminate it.

As for the shirt comment. There is nothing better then representing your state or country. It is 100 times more then just a shirt. There is no feeling that can accurately describe it.



I hope East Coast is an extremely successful event this year. I may look at sneaking my way onto a table for the presentation night to catch up with old friends.

 

[jockey]

Scott

You of all people should know that ECCC is not about huge scores or strings of strikes. Sure they might add more interest to the game(s) but at the end of the day it is who is in front after the 16 games of competition that matters to most. Along with the fact that you and your fellow competitiors gave it your all and then shook hands and had a beer / soft drink together at the end of the day.

You might not have been around then but I remember when the ECCC was predominantly bowled on wooden lanes; the scores bowled could not be found in the telephone book; however, there was more atmosphere in the bowling centres then than has been evident in the most recent ECCC where the scores have been beyond the ridiculous. The main reason was that it made the event competitive and thus exciting for all. Sure 300 games might raise interest but again that's just one game out of 16.

Yes we all want to enjoy ourselves at ECCC as after all most of us are on holidays but we also need to be true to the original theme of the event as it was formed to provide bowlers in the then breakaway bowling organisations an alternate to the Nationals (Junior / Adult) and of course Rachuig / President Shield.

The first two years the Adults and Junior events were held seperately (NSW, VIC), however the ECCC we know and love now came into being in 1981 when both the Adults and Juniors bowled at the same venue for the first time (QLD, NSW, VIC).

Little did they know that they would that year create what most of us consider as easily the best bowling event in the country. Now on a social level any one who has bowled in it would agree whole heartedly it is #1 but of course it may not be rated the #1 event in the country by scratch bowlers as far as bowling prowess goes, and that is fair enough. It was never intended to compete or replace Rachuig which is rightfully considered the ultimate team event for scratch bowlers in this country. It is however still there to provide bowlers aspiring to test themselves against there interstate peers, a means to do so. Going back through the list of ECCC participants over the years you will find a lot of Australian representative bowlers had developed some of their skills from bowling in this event.

Now sure the lack of numbers trialling this year is a concern but so is the feedback from those who want to have the status quo (blocked conditions) retained. I for one having been involved in this event for over 20 years see this as one way to restore a bit of the prestige this event seems to have lost in recent years. Now I'm not saying that has all come from the blocked conditions that have seen scores go through the roof in recent cups, but I do see it as a major contributor to why the numbers have dropped away.

In the end the verdict will come at Sunshine in late September when the event takes place. Hopefully the event will be extremely competitive and exciting and deserving of its status as the #1 tournament to bowl in for all bowlers in this country not just east coast dwelling ones.

 

[flinstone]

Hi guys,
the way to try and stop sandbagging was brought up a few years ago but was not supported. That was for each state to bowl the same number of games to qualify and what you averaged over those games would be the average you bowl off for ECCC if your ave was higher than league. If lower still take higest league ave.
thanks Fred

 

[jockey]

Hi guys,
the way to try and stop sandbagging was brought up a few years ago but was not supported. That was for each state to bowl the same number of games to qualify and what you averaged over those games would be the average you bowl off for ECCC if your ave was higher than league. If lower still take higest league ave.
thanks Fred

Fred

Yes we again have the problem that if one state refuses to implement it then it is not adopted. This would eliminate the 'sandbaggers' but unfortunately it would also hurt those who genuinely bowled above average due to bowling more games than they normally do in the same bowling session.

Lower handicapping systems penalise the actual bowlers that we really need in the graded division, while a 100% handicap system makes it fair for the lower average bowler but of course aids the 'sandbaggers'.

One possible solution that may be practical in a few years time is the fact that league results are now predominatly made available online by the centres. Maintaining a database of all bowlers season ending averages over say 3 to 5 years is one way to address the 'sandbagging' issue available to us now which was not practically possible until now. It is certainly worth looking into.

However we probably will always be in a 'no win' situation when running the graded event.

 

[scott]

Terry I still dont see how putting down sports pattern will help elimenate the sandbagging it actually just aids it

Take me for example I was averaging 192 at the start of the year in the league I bowl in this leauge changes the pattern every 12 weeks and its allways a sports pattern now that they have laid this current pattern my average has dropped by about 25 pins and is still dropping and the leauge average has dropped roughly the same now I can promise you that I am not sandbagging as you are well aware of my feelings of people who do that

But from what I have been reading is that you would be more than happy to make a scratch mens side with an avaeage of 170-180 honestly nobody wants to watch the likes of yourself andrew Lloyd my old man and the likes come in and shoot 170 games its just not interesting and it will deter newier bowlers that want to bowl to do so

And on another note wich I am not sure if people are aware of when we lay these patterns down they need to be layed at leats twice a day for about 7 days comming up to the event because as the lanes dry out the house pattern tends to reappear and then becomes nearly unplayable

There are alot of factors in this wich maybe should have been look into a bit better I just dont see this as being something that will bring east coast back from the brink of ending it ay actually push it over the edge

I may still be young Terry but i have a fair knowledge of east coast and i have a very very knowledgable father that knows what he is on about when it comes to conditions and bowling itself so I have good pedigree

 

[millman]

It is great to see that there are still bowlers out there that are passionate about ECCC. Even though we don't all agree on particular solutions to sandbagging etc we all have the tournament's best interests at heart and thats the most important factor. Lets hope that ECCC 2010 is a great tournament, whatever the conditions, and that ECCC has a strong and long future. (Terry I would still rather watch you bowl a 300 than a 200 in the 5 man teams!!!!!!! although hopefully I'll be down the other end of the house bowling with Tracy!!)

See you at Dandy

Glenda

 

[cjallstar]

if you have alook across all divisions the scores maybe low but most are still with in a chance making the team but it would have made common sense to let everyone know in a good amount of time what the condition was going to be but i say 1st roll off is done get over it move on to dandy where the condition will be the same so you know all ready
and scott ive known tonx for awhile i dont think there was any offense intended in the end of the day we are all bowling for the same causes name on a shirt a chance to represent your state and what most are forgetting is cause we love our sport or we wouldnt be doing this

 

[tonx]

And Tonx as for your "bowling for a shirt with your states name on it" comment i find that very offensive and in very bad taste and what your saying that you would be more than happy to make a scratch mens side averaging 170 (pigs Ass) I bowl to represent my state not just a shirt and i enjoy it

If you find that offensive, you should maybe go back to school and learn reading comprehension 101.

"bowling for a shirt with your states name on it" IS an Honour that shouldn't be taken lightly. It is used in the same context as the baggy green cap with cricket, or the blues or maroons shirts in S.O.O.

How anyone can be offended by that I have no idea. COMPREHENSION.

If I am bowling to make a team, and I make that team, I have acheived my goal. But again back to the reading comprehension topic "please read this as a question not an opinion" obviously wasn't in big enough font with pretty enough colours for you to read, so I'll try again, just for you.

my question to the board is the following (and please view it as a question, not an opinion):

In a "roll-off" type format, where competitors are bowling for a shirt with their states name on it, what difference does it make if you average 250 or 150 as long as you make the team?

 

[Jase]

GEES you are all getting serious over a team that's not even the real state team...

 

[Phluff]

Jase: it's the premium event for Tenpins Australia. It's akin to rachiug/presidents shield and should hold just as much prestige.

Tonx: I think the idea was to try and ensure that the bowlers who make the team are the best possible by using a pattern that rewarded accurate and consistent bowlers.
The issue with a THS is that a consistent 200 bowler could miss out to a 170 bowler who manages to get lucky and throw a couple of high games. While it's great for that bowler that they have performed above expectation in the roll-off, it hurts the team in the long run when they fail to perform at the main event. I can think of at least 2 teams you and I have been in where this was the case.

 

[Craig Ryan]

Jase: it's the premium event for Tenpins Australia. It's akin to rachiug/presidents shield and should hold just as much prestige.

Tonx: I think the idea was to try and ensure that the bowlers who make the team are the best possible by using a pattern that rewarded accurate and consistent bowlers.
The issue with a THS is that a consistent 200 bowler could miss out to a 170 bowler who manages to get lucky and throw a couple of high games. While it's great for that bowler that they have performed above expectation in the roll-off, it hurts the team in the long run when they fail to perform at the main event. I can think of at least 2 teams you and I have been in where this was the case.

Yeah, only difference is that this roll off is over 25 games for the Adults and 21 for the Jnr/Yth. If a consistent 200 bowler cannot beat a 170 average bowler over 25 games then they DO NOT deserve to be in the team. If it is over 6-8 games then I can understand this point of view...

 

[Phluff]

Craig: ... was just floating one idea towards the question

Personally I think all teams should be decided over a series of tests to make sure you have what it takes to be a representative bowler:

Round 1 - Ability to survive long periods on little sleep
Round 2 - Ability to consume decent amounts of alcohol
Round 3 - Ability to look the part of a bowler on the lanes (scoring irrelevant)

Additional points if your the one who always brings the lollies on game days!

 

[AdrianS]

I think i'd be top qualifier!! Oh and we have a another lane condition thread, i'm off to hide under my bed for a few days

 

[mickyd213]

my question to the board is the following (and please view it as a question, not an opinion):

In a "roll-off" type format, where competitors are bowling for a shirt with their states name on it, what difference does it make if you average 250 or 150 as long as you make the team?[/QUOTE]

Isn't the aim of a roll off to beat your fellow bowler in a series of games to make a team... regardless of lane conditions.

Now that the powers that be have seen fit to lay a pattern that is somewhat more difficult than a THS seems to have rocked the boat a little.

So to answer one of your questions Tonx... I think EGO plays a big part. Some may not like averaging 170 or 180 to make the open team but would be happy to average 220 and miss out saying that they were beaten by better bowlers.

As for the sandbagging issue... a one line addendum in the entry form which says the committee has the right to re average a bowler after "X" amount of games or the first qualifying stage.

 

[millman]

Luke I guess that you were the 170 avg bowler in those teams with Tonx!!!! he he he he

 

[onebungknee]

i think some people are missing the point of eccc. as stated before this is not rachiug or president shield this is east coast ten teams u21's open and GRADED, adults open and GRADED and over FIFTYS it is a family tournament.
personaly i dont care what pattern i bowl on i have bowling balls for all patterns but some of the other bowlers only have one ball or two balls.
as for the sandbagging why can't we have if you have bowled eccc before your scores get added to your average then re averaged (so average from eccc plus league average)just thinking out loud

 

[Nighteyes300]

as for the sandbagging why can't we have if you have bowled eccc before your scores get added to your average then re averaged (so average from eccc plus league average)just thinking out loud

Another way to stop the sandbagging to average those bowling east coast with their qualifying scores, but to do this all states have to bowl the same amount of games.

 

[Forbesy]

anyone got the final results of the roll-offs?

 

[peter56]

not finished yet last day of stage 2 this sunday then the final roll offs are july24+25