Deveer vs Rachuig

[strop]

Jan,

I see you points.............very good, but to many that are pro Deveer will find this hard to swallow. I suppose the restricted ATBSO team would be in the same boat up to a point on this one.

Cheers

Tony

 

[Chucky]

dunryc

you say they have greated a better tourney that opens it up and more people will bowl in it and the fun will spread. But why would any one travel and pay $1000 dollars to bowl in a 2 day tourney flights accomodation when there is no oncetive to bowl???

you pay a fortune to get nothing aback.. wow first place has incentive the rest is a waste of time.. its stupid. if they wanted to put a tourney in like they have atleast put an incentive there to bowl..

deveer is gone its happened but atleast put something there to bowl and a reason to bowl it.

 

[strop]

Chucky says.......

you pay a fortune to get nothing aback.. wow first place has incentive the rest is a waste of time.. its stupid. if they wanted to put a tourney in like they have atleast put an incentive there to bowl..

What do you get back at the moment chucky?

Cheers

Tony

 

[Chucky]

at the moment you can and i know people will argue this but you can call your self part of a state team. be it restricted, graded, what ever. but your still part of a state team bowling agains other state teams. its a select group of people there. its not any one can bowl. and its something also called pride in your state. being part of QLD and being able to SH AFT it to NSW in a state comp means a damn lot to us northerners

the new comp has no meaning like that and a farce as a prize pool. more incentive to bowl the opening tourny lol more fun more bowlers and there is a better pay out not just top 3 teams.

 

[strop]

That's funny chucky, for a moment there I thought you were talking about money return.

you quoted....

at the moment you can and i know people will argue this but you can call your self part of a state team. be it restricted, graded, what ever. but your still part of a state team

so then it's all about "Title " then.?

When you bowl for a state team it's more than just title, it's about being the best of the best (although these days I'm not so sure). I'm still not convinced this is so with a 140 ave bowler having a good day and making the team.

cheers

Tony

 

[gjelectrics1]

Oh Goody, now we have 3 threads going on essentially the same subject. Maybe you can have an individual thread for each of the splinter groups that's going to form.
Your argument is flawed. This would only hold sway if we were talking about a handicap/restricted Australian Team. It is a natural progression of thought that the best in Australia would be selected from the best the states have to offer. I don't have exact statistics to back me up, but I would guess that at least 90 percent of the Australian Team Members have bowled Rachuig at some stage. I don't know if it is still the case, but at least nominating for Rachuig and completing the trials, used to be a pre-requisite for National Team eligibility.
I wish this was the case, but for many reasons, some Rachuig bowlers don't bowl in the national scratch tournaments, although a lot of them do. On the converse, some of the Elite bowlers, don't bowl Rachuig, mostly because there is no money in it, or due to leave constraints but also in my opinion, because tournaments like the DeVeer have taken the shine off representing your State. Rachuig suffers because of this, in a perfect world, Rachuig would truly be the best of the best competing, but until we get some Pride back into the State shirts, and perhaps some financial incentive, that's not going to happen.
How much fun do you think Tiger Woods has while he's competing? You should enjoy bowling, (why would we do it otherwise) but if you are going to compete at State or National level, then serious is the attitude you MUST have.
As Tony said, I didn't exactly say that but it was implied. The embarrassment comes from the misguided perception that they are State players, for what is essentially a "fun" tournament to use your words. To have bowlers intentionally keep their average low so that they can remain eligible goes against everything this tournament should be about. The fact that a lot of DeVeer bowlers constantly wear their shirts and jackets and promote themselves as being State Players is what really detracts from the sport, and again, is one of the reasons that the better players want nothing to do with State Representation. I never said that anyone that can't average 200 is an embarrassment to the sport. I love bowling, I've put a lot back into it over the 30 years that I've been involved. I've coached and run practice sessions, run pro shops, I encourage everyone to improve when I get the chance. What I do find embarrassing is sandbaggers giving off the perception that they are the best our State has to offer. It's one thing to have a bit of pride in making a State team, even a farcical one like the DeVeer, but give it a rest people, stop pretending like it means anything.
This tournament was never his vision. It was named in his honour for his contributions to the sport. From what I remember of Walter, he would be turning in his grave to be associated with it in its current form.
TBA has done the right thing and opened the WDV up to make it an open team event, but taken away the State team persona. No-one is stopping you from competing, and if anything, they have increased the potential for you all to have fun, and develop your friendships by expanding. They have just rightly taken away the State against State focus, but again, no-one is stopping you from having roll-offs and entering a team from your state, region or even centre. You just won't be wearing a State Shirt when you get there.
I'm sure a lot of my comments have irked some of you WDV devotees, but I won't apologise for my beliefs that a State Shirt should be reserved for the best in the State, and not tarnished by it's association with a second rate pretend tournament.
Cheers
Jan

Some good points Jan, but your overall attitude is why a lot of deveer bowlers plateu out at deveer level. They don't like the elitist CRAP

 

[Chucky]

you say the best of the best. then get rid of rachuig then...

best of the best. where is 90% of the top top bowlers. they dont bowl it. brandos, bottomlys (blank right now but qld hasnt had the best of the best bowl for a long time.

so for you there should be one state team and thats it, get rid of youth get rid on seniours they both have graded divisions to. ecc has graded. whats wrong with them no one complains about them but deveer its the worlds werst thing..

and where did i say it was about a title? you take it as that. i said your part of a state team i am bowling for my state its a title thats part of it, its a feeling, its the atmosphere, its the fact you made the team not just some jo blogs off the street. its the fact that i know im not the best but im there for my state. i have not had such an unbeleiveable feeling as that when i first played in townsville with my jersey on with my team mebers around me knowing we were bowling for QLD the state i love and pride it. thats what its about.

you saying it has to be the best of the best. so what the disabled state teams are a farce to??? they have the same feeling if not more for being a state bowler.

i beleive most of the best bowlers out there have forgotten what it is to represent your state. it is pride the feeling of pulling your jersey on. i know i was only in restricted devision but it still means so much in feelings and pride to be able to wear that. its not about money or ego or saying look how good i am.. and i know alot of the bowlers out there thats how they use it.

 

[dunryc]

Just a clarification question...

Where exactly did the other 10 percent come from? Walter De Veer? Or people with NO previous nationals experience?

It was only a guess, not an exact figure. It's probably more like 98 percent but I have no proof to back me up so I aimed low. There have probably been a couple of special exemptions granted over the years due to overseas commitments or extreme circumstances but predominantly, most if not all National Team Members have bowled Rachuig. I would also hazard a guess that none of them have bowled WDV. Feel free to prove me wrong on that one though!

Cheers
Jan

 

[dunryc]

Other sports have second string state and even national sides, Australia A in the cricket is a prime example.

Another flawed argument. Australia A is a stepping stone into the Australian Team. Many players have gone on to represent Australia after an outing in the Australia A team. It is effectively a practice squad for the National Team. WDV Isn't! For your argument to have any validity, Australia A cricket would have to be a handicap team. No one with a batting average over 35 can play and you get all get 20 runs start when you go out to bat. I'm not aware of any other sports having second string state sides, but if they do, I bet they are scratch sides, or players that are on the fringe of making their respective state sides.

Cheers
Jan

 

[gjelectrics1]

It was only a guess, not an exact figure. It's probably more like 98 percent but I have no proof to back me up so I aimed low. There have probably been a couple of special exemptions granted over the years due to overseas commitments or extreme circumstances but predominantly, most if not all National Team Members have bowled Rachuig. I would also hazard a guess that none of them have bowled WDV. Feel free to prove me wrong on that one though!
Cheers
Jan

Jan, doesn't your statement prove that the bowlers need a decent pathway to get to the top eg; De Veer, Rachuig, National to provide them with the neceessary mindset and experience to succeed. Assuming they have the talent and access/commitment to coaching

 

[dunryc]

so for you there should be one state team and thats it, get rid of youth get rid on seniours they both have graded divisions to. ecc has graded. whats wrong with them no one complains about them but deveer its the worlds werst thing..

I think it's pretty obvious that we are talking about the Adult State Team here. I have no problems with a Junior, Youth and Senior State Team. They are the best of that age group.

Cheers
Jan

 

[Chucky]

jan i do think you said the thing there austrialia a is the step that was what deveer was meant to be and it didnt happen like that especially recently.. there is nothing to help as a step into rachuig. i have bowled off for my rachuig state team even when i know im not good enough cause i used it as learning i bowl scratch tournaments all around brissy and qld to try to get better. but that is the fundamental problem that there is no real step up for people aspiring for the top state side.

and is TBA doing anything along those lines too help really?? NO

 

[strop]

very good glad we got that sorted........

 

[Chucky]

lol jan i mean t that in those atbso has graded i dont know about junoirs and youth if they have a scratch side and a graded side..

i probably want to say like my last statement lead to. i agree that deveer fell from grace. it had turned into a farce. but there has to be something in its place to step to. a State A teams scratch tourny that is the step up also can be used as a spotter for the coaches of the state teams to see who is coming thru and who they think can make it.. I mean there is not even a fundamental development tree in bowling.

coming from a long soccer back ground in local and state affiliation and a few insights into national bodies thru alot of work with my father (president of local club, local body and vice president on sate body) but the one thing they concentrate on is development of the not so great to great bowlers.

theu the media heard clark from the aussie cricket team say that its not always the best (of given sport) at 15 16 that make the best later its the people who try and push for it.. its the people that go thru the development schemes every year cause they want to get better.

this is the one thing we are missing on in bowling and need.

i am sad for deveer lose but there needs to be somthing there for people to get to the top level thru.

 

[gjelectrics1]

Jan, you say that you have put a lot back in to the sport over the last 30 years, which I do not doubt, would you be prepared to put some more back in to it and help some ex De Veer bowlers get up to Rachuig standard by coaching them? for example me?

 

[Brenton_Davy]

Quote:
Originally Posted by taps
It is an insult to the man's vision and memory that his tournament (and it will always be his tournament no matter what name it goes by) that the attitude has been taken by the powers at be that Rachuig level is the only one that matters.

This tournament was never his vision. It was named in his honour for his contributions to the sport. From what I remember of Walter, he would be turning in his grave to be associated with it in its current form.

Walter DeVeer was one of the greatest proponents of Rachuig. He believed that the state shirt should be earned only by the elite of the age group (He was also a great supporter of Shield). I believe that he would have actually been opposed to the original (and later) format of the tournament as he did not believe that state representation should be anything but scratch and for the top level players. I also had arguments with Walter about team funding etc, but there was no denying his passion for the Rachuig tournament because it, at the time, brought together all of the elite from each state.

It was always my personal belief that the DeVeer tournament when it was first mooted should have been an Under 23 version of Rachuig.

 

[strop]

Impressive brenton! Very good.

 

[gjelectrics1]

What if they kept the tournamentas it was but made it scratch with a 184 ave cut off (for men)

 

[Grumpy gills]

The embarrassment comes from the misguided perception that they are State players, for what is essentially a "fun" tournament to use your words. To have bowlers intentionally keep their average low so that they can remain eligible goes against everything this tournament should be about. The fact that a lot of DeVeer bowlers constantly wear their shirts and jackets and promote themselves as being State Players is what really detracts from the sport, and again, is one of the reasons that the better players want nothing to do with State Representation. I never said that anyone that can't average 200 is an embarrassment to the sport.

nfire: This would have to be the most self centered thing I have read in my life! Jan who do you think you are.
Please don't group all of us under the one title of "keeping my average intentionally low" Not all of us need to sandbag to win. And the sad fact is that these people are decieving themselves by continuing this practice. Lack of pride and self image! I don't think they can be very proud of that!
What the TBA has done has not solved the problem. Just totally destroyed the DeVeer tournament. What is left for the bowler who is not quite good enough for Rachuig! Not much!
The actual fact is that I along with the rest of my team members went out to bowl the best we could on the day wearing our state shirt. And this was in the Championships as well as DeVeer. We did not win but we know as a team we did our best. And that is what this is about ~ when it comes down to it there is no I in team!!!

I'm sure a lot of my comments have irked some of you WDV devotees, but I won't apologise for my beliefs that a State Shirt should be reserved for the best in the State, and not tarnished by it's association with a second rate pretend tournament.

nfire:
IRKED IS NOT THE WORD!
I guess that I am one of those DeVeer bowlers who constantly wears my State Shirt. Please know that I have never been more proud then when I walked out onto the lanes at Illiwarra in 2005. I continue to wear that state shirt with pride. I know that I will never quite make it to Rachuig. I also know that not all Rachuig bowlers are like you.
When we first started our training our coach gave us the following.
The Winner is always part of the answer
The Loser is always part of the problem
The Winner always has a programme
The Loser always has an excuse
The Winner sees an answer for any problem
The Loser sees a problem of any answer.
The Winner says It may be difficult but is's possible
The Loser says It may be possible but it's too difficult
My DeVeer team mates and I were WINNERS AND WE WERE PROUD TO REPRESENT OUR STATE
Which are you Jan???
TBA needs to talk to all the bowlers and consult with the registered members throughout any process of change. No good comes from taking aim at any one particular group. This serves no good purpose and just sets up large grand canyons that can never be bridged!
Just my two cents worth!
Cheers
Bernedette Shelley
Queensland North
DeVeer 2005

 

[double_d]

What if they kept the tournamentas it was but made it scratch with a 184 ave cut off (for men)

this is what i have mentioned in the past but all the lower average players that have been in their deveer team for the past 6 years complained

daniel d