Ball Brands - Where is AMF at AMF centres!

G'Day Androo,

The maker definitely says it's not for everyone and you must have an understanding of what your doing and to be mechanically minded.

The reviews I have seen show it in good light.

But it will require common sense, commonly not found these days.

Again not for everyone and is catering for a very small piece of the market
 
Hi Guys,

Sure I understand that time has changed. Hell, Brunswick aren't even making in America any more. Harley Davidson are made in China.

I understand all that. The world moves on and you wake up with grey hair thinking about the time you were 14 again.

Sure, AMF in Australia is different to AMF in America, but when I look across the league, none, not a one AMF ball, I look in the pro-shop window nothing.

I was curious as to where it had gone in Australia? It is like waking up without the Ford Falcon or Holden Commodore.

I wonder how much I could get for my Black Ninja and Ninja Master !!!

Bigsy...
 
Yes, exactly... and you'll get Farmer Bob drilling into the bottom of balls, or with a 4" shift, bowl 300 and wonder why that get turned down...

I mean, 2.5oz of side and 3oz thumb weight is legal isn't it? lol

"But I did it with the home jig with the Makita.... It never said WHERE to put the holes..."

I didn't invent this device for the "novice" bowler, however, there have been so many inquiries and so much criticism about the possibility of "illegal" layouts that I have decided to make a video to try and demonstrate the basics of how to properly lay out a new ball. It should be on my web site by the end of this month.
 
Yes, exactly... and you'll get Farmer Bob drilling into the bottom of balls, or with a 4" shift, bowl 300 and wonder why that get turned down...

I mean, 2.5oz of side and 3oz thumb weight is legal isn't it? lol

"But I did it with the home jig with the Makita.... It never said WHERE to put the holes..."


Haha I see what you mean now, I took your original post the wrong way. XD
 
I didn't invent this device for the "novice" bowler, however, there have been so many inquiries and so much criticism about the possibility of "illegal" layouts that I have decided to make a video to try and demonstrate the basics of how to properly lay out a new ball. It should be on my web site by the end of this month.

I understand that, and that is fine. Personally I think it is a very clever design :)

However, there are a lot of bowlers who "think they know it all". That's where the problems could start.
 
Worst thing I have ever seen in the trade of ball drilling, and I have seen some pretty rubbish work over the years.

Firstly, good luck with consistency of hole size using a cordless drill to penetrate such densities for such extended periods of time. The head on a cordless drill will have WAAAAAY too much travel to consistently contain the dreaded head rattle.

Good luck with getting a thumb insert to fit your thumb properly. Good luck with getting the right layout, (including a balance hole, or do you expect all Xholes should either be only the size of your fingerholes or thumbhole) and I want to also ask if you have made an equally "effective" do it yourself dodoscale also?

Shall we address the speed your drill is rotating at? My proper drill press can cut through a ball comfortably at <320rpm. It normally runs at 580rpm, but only because I have super sharp bits at all times. Why don't I run it at 1000-2000rpm? Because at that speed even my top of the range drillbits and press will create too much heat at the hole. Do you know what heat does to a bowling ball?

The main problem in your overall concept is that the only people who can remotely drill a ball on something like that monstrosity, are high performance type bowlers. My experience with better bowlers is they are much "fussier" with their fits than the average joe, and your device doesn't offer any precision in its design. How dare you compare your device to a true proshops equipment. Your device is a piece of ****.

On the flip side, someone who only drills house balls for a living may buy it because neither a decent driller or a decent bowler wouldn't be caught dead using it.
 
I feel sick agreeing with Tonx but there is no way in hell I'd ever drill my gear on such a device..... no chance!
 
Worst thing I have ever seen in the trade of ball drilling, and I have seen some pretty rubbish work over the years.

Firstly, good luck with consistency of hole size using a cordless drill to penetrate such densities for such extended periods of time. The head on a cordless drill will have WAAAAAY too much travel to consistently contain the dreaded head rattle.

Good luck with getting a thumb insert to fit your thumb properly. Good luck with getting the right layout, (including a balance hole, or do you expect all Xholes should either be only the size of your fingerholes or thumbhole) and I want to also ask if you have made an equally "effective" do it yourself dodoscale also?

Shall we address the speed your drill is rotating at? My proper drill press can cut through a ball comfortably at <320rpm. It normally runs at 580rpm, but only because I have super sharp bits at all times. Why don't I run it at 1000-2000rpm? Because at that speed even my top of the range drillbits and press will create too much heat at the hole. Do you know what heat does to a bowling ball?

The main problem in your overall concept is that the only people who can remotely drill a ball on something like that monstrosity, are high performance type bowlers. My experience with better bowlers is they are much "fussier" with their fits than the average joe, and your device doesn't offer any precision in its design. How dare you compare your device to a true proshops equipment. Your device is a piece of ****.

On the flip side, someone who only drills house balls for a living may buy it because neither a decent driller or a decent bowler wouldn't be caught dead using it.

This is the type of response that I'm used to from PSO's. I don't know what you guys are afraid of!! Like you say, this device will only appeal to a small percentage of bowlers, not enough to hurt your business.

I do not recommend using a cordless drill. You will only get through 1 or 2 holes before the battery runs out.

As far as the speed of the drill is concerned, if you have watched my video, you will see that I can drill a hole as quickly as you can on a press, so excess heat isn't a problem. This is mostly due to the custom made bits that are being used. They are so precise that holes come out cleaner than with a press or mill using standard bits. In fact, they work so well that I am selling them to pro shops across the US. The "no drift clean cut" feature of these bits makes them better than standard bits. They are being sold by Jayhawk Bowling Supply and I am negotiating with Innovative Bowling Supply to sell them. But don't take my word for it---read the testimonials on my web site, or call Jayhawk.

If you have looked closely at the design, you will see that it is impossible for the drill bit to "wander" since there is a bushing guiding the direction of the bit, something that is not found on a press or a mill. This jig does the same thing as the jig on your press or mill--it holds the ball in place as you drill holes. Where anyone places the ball on the jig, whether your are a PSO or an end user, is what determines the accuracy of the hole. Drilling a bowling ball is not rocket science, even though you would like people to believe that it is. The basic idea of leverage hasn't changed in decades, and probably won't change unless they change the size of the bowling ball, since that is what leverage is based upon. Cores change and covers change but 3-3/8" is still the highest position of imbalance that you can get, whether you're leveraging top weight or a core.

I also believe that the end user is always going to be more careful when it comes to drilling and layouts. When you're drilling your own equipment, you always tend to be a bit "fussier" than anyone else. There is a learning curve involved, but like I said, it's not rocket science!
 
King Tonx,
you sure are the King of over-reaction.
There's no way you can assess the engineering of this device withour seeing it.
There's no difference ( necessarily) between any free play in the chuck of what is, essentially, a modified bench drill ( your ball drill ), and any good quality portable drill, which, in case you haven't noticed, can be operated at a range of speeds.

Just like someone using your equipment, the results will depend on the operator. There indeed, is the weakness with this jig. The question of ball balance is a different matter entirely. Without a dodo scale, it will be guesswork.

Do try to keep calm, Tonx, and try thinking with your head. It does a better job than whatever bit your'e using.
 
Drill me a thumb hole that is a 59/64th drillbit. Drill it as an oval at 40 degrees, and it needs to be 0.092 wide. Just to help you out, the cuts are 0.040hor and 0.034vert twice, then 0.010hor and 0.008vert. I also need quite a bit of bevel, so make sure that you use a 1 3/8ths thumb slug. If there is any taper in the cuts of the ovals, it will tear up my thumb, so make sure your handheld drill and magical drillbits have enough strength to mill the oval without taper.

Can you do that?

Jim. I don't care to hold back. I close my proshop on Sunday and am no longer being involved in bowling. I CAN assess devices like that without seeing it, and resent someone trying to make a quick buck trying to compare that type of product to what a professional ball driller can do for a bowler.
 
Drill me a thumb hole that is a 59/64th drillbit. Drill it as an oval at 40 degrees, and it needs to be 0.092 wide. Just to help you out, the cuts are 0.040hor and 0.034vert twice, then 0.010hor and 0.008vert. I also need quite a bit of bevel, so make sure that you use a 1 3/8ths thumb slug.

Can you do that?

How many of the Ball Drills in use in Australia can't do all of that either, Tonx? Get real!
 
It is very interesting this product.

I can see the benefits but after watching the videos, I have a few concerns about this product.

1. Tonx mentions oval thumbs, slugs and bevelling. I cannot see how this product could benefit compared to a press (factoring skill of end user on the drill). These refinements are crucial to a lot of bowlers, myself included.

2. Shayne mentions the adjustability is limited and i agree and will go further and say it is very, very limited and totally agree more probs than it will solve.

3. Weightings. This goes without saying that you simply cannot use this product without adequate scales to weigh top, side etc..... for legalities. You will see a heck of a lot of illegal balls ou there with this type of product and this cannot assist growth in the sport.

I like the concept but I just cannot see it working. Plug away pro shops. I will be sticking with my ball driller as he is a champ. Dont worry Ross, you wont lose any business over this baby. Your skills are simply too good to!
 
Drill me a thumb hole that is a 59/64th drillbit. Drill it as an oval at 40 degrees, and it needs to be 0.092 wide. Just to help you out, the cuts are 0.040hor and 0.034vert twice, then 0.010hor and 0.008vert. I also need quite a bit of bevel, so make sure that you use a 1 3/8ths thumb slug. If there is any taper in the cuts of the ovals, it will tear up my thumb, so make sure your handheld drill and magical drillbits have enough strength to mill the oval without taper.

Can you do that?

Jim. I don't care to hold back. I close my proshop on Sunday and am no longer being involved in bowling. I CAN assess devices like that without seeing it, and resent someone trying to make a quick buck trying to compare that type of product to what a professional ball driller can do for a bowler.

Like I said, this device isn't for everyone. There are several things you can't do---you can't cut ovals and you can't check legal weights without a scale. But there are mathematical ways to figure out balance hole placement. When I'm drilling a ball in my shop that is going to require a balance hole, I know where I'm going to place the hole and how big and deep it's going to be long before I check it on the scale. Most of the time the scale is just a formality to double check my work. It just takes practice.

When I'm drilling for a customer, I try to keep all of my specs within 1/32" of my desired specification, but I would have to guess that 90% of my customers wouldn't notice 1/16" of difference. I designed the bridge plates with that in mind. You can always get within 1/16" of your desired pitches with this device, usually closer. Offsets start at 1/8" and go up to 3/4" in 1/8" increments. In order to hit all combinations of pitches exactly I would have to make 4 or 5 more bridge plates. Since most people can't feel 1/16", I felt that the 6 current plates would be enough. The remaining 10% of the bowlers probably wouldn't want to use this device unless I decide to make more plates. The pitches that are available have been computed mathematically, machined into the plates, and checked with digital pitch gauges and they are extremely accurrate.

I'm surprised that you are still using drill bits to cut your ovals if you're as fussy as you say. I use an end mill to cut ovals--much cleaner.
 
How many of the Ball Drills in use in Australia can't do all of that either, Tonx? Get real!

Not everyone's using a woodwork drill, Jim. And the good pro shops use gear that can do that. Mine can. No sweat. Because it’s not a drill. It’s a mill. It’s 2HP motor is rated to drive an 1¼” bit through mild steel and it’s 3” front post/ 5” rear post configuration can deal with the lateral forces to cut 1” slots in mild steel. It has Accu-Rite Digital readouts, calibrated to 1/1000”. The Ovalmatic jig, as used on the PBA tour truck (granted, mine’s an older model these days) pivots the ball about dead centre, so I can hit spans dead on without adjusting pitch. I scribe a line (about 1/64” thick) and after drilling an oval thumb hole can pick whether to hit it in the centre, top or bottom edge of that line. That's getting real!

The jig in question is an interesting product and quite clever. Nice work. It is definitely for the "tinkerers" among us though and obviously does not compare to serious equipment. And that's ok. It's obviously not meant to.

The trouble is that Joe Bowler doesn’t know the difference. He's probably so used to having gear that doesn't fit that he doesn't see the point in getting good work done and doesn’t want to pay for it either.

Which brings us to the price question. To make any money in a pro-shop, you simply must charge more than in the US, where turnover is much greater. There are pro-shops in the US that turn over more balls than any distributor in this country. Read that again and soak it in. Think, actually think about the ramifications that kind of turnover brings to your pro-shop business model. Now think again about the dis-economies of scale that exist in a small Australian pro-shop. And every pro shop is small in this country.

And before some clown comes in with the patently not-thought-through argument of "Aw, you just need to get competitive...", go and price the cost of your new wonder ball from bowlingstuff.com, including freight and drilling and if you're a couple of bucks ahead, you're lucky, but you have no warranty on either the ball or the drillling. Then go and cost the set-up costs of a real pro shop here, then price the importation of gear, including freight, GST, brokerage and anything else that comes along. Then add rent into the equation. And maybe if you're feeling benevolent, the odd bit of profit to eat with. It's staggering how much money you throw into a quality pro shop to get it running.

Every good pro shop in this country is competitive. It's just that there are a lot of people out there who think that they’re very clever because they got something cheap. Sometimes, it’s genuinely cheaper, but I cannot tell you how many times some guy has given me a proud recitation of how cheap they got a ball, then when I dig a little about freight, inserts and drilling, I discover that he could have bought it from me at the same price or even less in some cases.

If there’s one thing I learned in life, it’s that you get what you pay for. If it’s cheap, it’s either on clearance or likely to be aimed at a thoughtless market too lazy to look beyond price. And competing on price is a mug’s game. Ask any good tradesman.

Go and buy a top quality driver off the shelf and see what you'll pay. If you get it from a real pro shop they’ll carefully help you pick the right one and any custom work required usually goes on top, which is fair enough. A bit more for a better result. A good bowling pro shop will help you select the right ball according to surface, core RG & differential, map it according to your PAP, taking into consideration finer points of surface adjustment, pin, MB and x-hole placement and dimensions to see how it affects the finished RG and differential of the ball. They will painstakingly fit the ball and note it all down for your next visit. That’s why a first performance ball fitting and drilling in my pro-shop takes 1½ hrs from go to whoa. You get this (plus slug and grips) included in the price I quote you up front. It’s about whether you want quality work or cheap work. Mine’s guaranteed, by the way.

And for the record, 3 3/8” is only leverage in an un-drilled, symmetric-cored ball. It shifts once you put holes in it, when of course it's no longer symmetrical. In fact, it's not a terribly useful layout these days.

Any fool can get balls in and plenty do. There's a constant turnover of guys getting gear in, selling it for a meat pie's worth of margin, realising a few months later that it's just way too much work for too little return, but they've painted themselves into a corner by starting cheap and have attracted the wrong customer base, so they go do something else. The same thing happens in “pro shops” that drill balls for $30 (or less) in 10 minutes. You get what you pay for. Funnily enough, the stress of tight time frames and the lack of respect that the resultant poor work generates turns people off wanting to do it and whether they stick around or not, they lose interest, as they don't have the control over the role they'd like. Some folks sadly believe that you can layout and drill a performance ball in 20 minutes. I feel sorry for their customers who are paying good money for a ball to be slapped up. If it's not right, you've paid too much, regardless of the price.

I'm very sad to hear that Tonx is pulling down his shingle. Another casualty of the cheap bowling ball "shops". As Chris Barnes reportedly once said "You can't out-bowl a bad grip." It's the experience, expertise, machinery and commitment to excellence that you pay for in a good pro shop.

On the other hand, there's not too many drillers I'd send folks to in this country. But Tonx is one. And now he's gone to get a life because he can't make it work by basing his business model on producing a quality product, because so many thoughtless people want the cheapest thing they can lay their hands on. Look within. You'll know who you are.

Well done. You must be so proud of yourselves.
 
Jason, I agree broadly with everything you've said. It makes sense and logic. If Tonx expressed himself in similar fashion, I could find elements of what he said acceptable. There is always room for differing points of view. Sometimes they need to be expressed reasonably. I've owned and run several small businesses over the years and know first hand all the challenges which you've outlined, especially from 'fly-by-nighters' with no overheads.
I think that I could make a good job of drilling a ball with this device. I bet you could also. I've drilled the occasional ball or two, and have a wealth of engineering experience.
The balance would be a problem. This does not mean that anyone who 'wanted to have a go' could do so, neither could they if they were given the use of your equipment.

Jason, I know that you're aware that the purpose-built ball drilling machines that were in universal use prior to the 'mill drills' presently available were certainly not 'woodworking drills." The best of them, indeed most of them were a specialised version of the drills you would find in a precision engineering shop, ( along with milling machines, lathes and the like.) Many are still in use, can and do produce accuracy in drilling..... I Know..... I Know!!!....no oval holes!!! Ovals are a great idea - indeed a great advance, but please don't tell me that balls precision drilled to provide a proper fit were not produced prior to 'mill drills.' ( How long have they been available? 15 Years? ) Everyone prior to that bowled with ill-fitting balls?

I'm saying that there are still a large number of those drills in use, and in the right hands can and do produce good results.
I venture to suggest that with your equipment, it still needs to be in the right hands to produce good results.

I'm suggesting it's more the operator than the machine, and that probably applies to this 'device' ?

It does certainly require more time and care, as you have said. A 20 minute ball drill? No, I don't think so either, and of course, the more 'basic' the machine, the longer to produce a comparable resolt.

Jim
 
Me. if I'm going to spend upwards of $300 bucks for any product that needs finishing before use I will get the professional to do the finishing work. I will always use the person I trust to do my drilling and this is because I appreciate the skills needed for a good job.
My first boss had a great motto, Do it once do it properly
 
Just a general comment - applies to lots of threads. I'm often prompted to wonder if some people can actually read? Some comments are so 'left field" that I find myself searching the previous posts to see which comment or proposition could possibly elicit such a response?
 
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