ATBSO stand up and be counted

[Belly]

It is time for the ATBSO to stand up and be counted. The current state of “Seniors” tournament bowling events, ranking points and the way the over 45’s bowlers are being treated by the TBA is completely unacceptable and the time has come for the ATBSO and its members to make at stand. Several things need change immediately.

1. ALL senior tournaments in Australia run by the ATBSO state organizations must be for bowlers 45 and over and cater for ALL their members. The TBA must go back to recognizing these events as “Senior” events all members of the ATBSO should be entitled to bowl in these events. The ATBSO hold the events, find the sponsors and run the events. If the TBA doesn’t want to rank then them let them run their own events.

2. Why should Senior bowlers be made to put up with a so called “TBA lane condition” which makes the events less enjoyable. Let’s put down the best condition possible and enjoy our events. If the only reason the TBA wants these conditions put down is so the TBA can rank the event, so the TBA can select an Australian Seniors Team every two years, and then make them pay all the costs of going away I say its not worth it.

3. The TBA should scrap their ridiculous “seniors” rankings points system immediately. The idea of “power points” and making senior bowlers go and bowl open events to get double points makes no sense. Senior bowlers have been around bowling for 30 – 40 years and have all been there and done that. We now just want to bowl amongst ourselves. The ranking points system should only be taken from the over 45 events and the TBA the rankings system should fit these events for the over 50 bowlers.

4. The ATBSO national president should demand that they have a position on the board of the TBA. I would guess nearly 50% of TBS’s members are over 45 and are not represented and when we send a Senior’s Australian team overseas they are the only teams that have to pay ALL of their costs. What have we been paying sanction fees for 40 years for only to be treated like second class bowlers?

The over 45’s organization the ATBSO has been going for approx 14 years and is the ONLY body that represents senior bowlers in Australia. It is time for us to stand up and be counted.

 

[strop]

Totally agree with you Stephen, While I am new to the Seniors (Just over a year) , but you have known me for years with ex ATBA and I am sure you will have the support of most South Australian Seniors.
It's gone on too long - ATBSO should be in total control of all Seniors tournaments and ALL over 45's be allowed to bowl.
Cheers
Tony Stoppel

 

[Foggy]

Belly couldn't agree with you more. Not a bad spiel for a Victorian

Jeff Elliott

 

[Black Duck]

Thanks Steve for saying what us 45-49.363 day year olds have been saying for awhile now, are we all one ATBSO, or are we divided ?

Let's get the numbers back up in the ATBSO Senior State tournaments and let's get back to the grass roots level of why Seniors was formed, to have some fun and enjoy the comradeship.

I watched my mother and father for years have so much fun in seniors and I attended the Challenges and the Dinners and these were always great to be involved with, so it was only natural to want to be part of this organisation when I turned 45, yes there are local ATBSO tournaments that involve all over 45, but some of us want to try our hand at the higher level Senior tournaments and to be told you are not old enough when you have waited for years to join is very disappointing.

Regards

Alan Swan

 

[twenban]

If you need numbers for support I'll definitely back what ever you guys decide. The events need supprt but it's hard to justify the costs with low entries, I want to retire soon .... from "work" that is.

 

[Peter Coburn]

Belly

I’ve sat back and watched this thread with interest over the past 3 weeks. It certainly appears that your cry for support on this issue has fallen on deaf ears with only four respondents.

As you know I am no longer involved with TBA on the governance side of the fence so the following is my personal view only and as an ATBSO member in the 45-50 age category. I would love to bowl in these senior ranked events but let me personally offer up my thoughts on this topic.

A number of your points in your post are not factual, let me elaborate:

1. In 2006, there are six Seniors Ranked Events on the National calendar. Only TWO of these are actually hosted by a state ATBSO organization. In 2005, when the 45-50 were able to bowl, there were seven Seniors Ranked Events on the National calendar. Only TWO of these are actually hosted by a state ATBSO organization. On this basis, your statement that ATBSO state bodies are expected to run these events is not true, in fact the majority are not run by ATBSO state bodies.
2. The numbers are slightly down from last year, this is true but it has very little to do with the age change. The numbers are down because this year is not a selection year for the Australian Seniors National team; therefore prize funds are smaller, so they certainly don’t bowl for the dollars. Other than winning the ranking system there is no other goal for these bowlers to achieve this year.
3. Senior can accrue points from their best three power events. This has been included so that those bowlers who are not fortunate enough to have a senior ranked event within their own state can at least compete and accrue points without having the extra cost of travel and accommodation.
4. Nationally, ATBSO has in the region of 800 financial members. Nationally there are in excess of 13,000 registered players competing in league every week throughout Australia who are over 50 years. The TBA Senior Ranked Events are there to cater for all these bowlers wishing to compete in a ranked event not just the members of ATBSO. The best performed bowler in the last Australian Seniors team, to Taipei, was/is not an ATBSO member. This bowler won Gold and a Bronze medal for Australia and therefore also justifies this policy and the tougher lane conditions.
5. The 50 age criteria, which will change to 49 next year, is as set by TBA’s international affiliation with FIQ, WTBA, ABF and ASBF, therefore TBA must also comply with this ruling.
6. In previous years of the National Ranking system, TBA received numerous cries from the older bowlers to up the age to 50 years, since they could not compete with the sprightly 45 year olds. Now TBA have done this the 45-50 are complaining – no matter what the answer there is always some one who is not happy.
7. With 82 men and 38 women registered for the seniors rankings this system is far from a failure. 56 men and 28 women have competed in senior ranked events over the past 12 months. There is no doubt that there will be a marked increase in 2007 especially in the lead up to an Australian senior team selection.
8. At the 2003 Seniors Forum in Melbourne, the age topic for ranked events was discussed at length. At this meeting, TBA allowed 45-50 year old bowlers to compete in these events and it was made very clear that this would be revised up to 50 in 2006. Everyone knew that it was going to be for 50+ year old bowlers in 2006.
9. Your call to have ATBSO represented on the TBA Board has no grounds when ATBSO represent such a small group. There are other bowling associations around this country that have in excess of 8000 members, they are affiliated with TBA, pay registration fees, have a say but still do not have their own representation at this level. Apart from this there are already two ATBSO members on the TBA Board anyway.
10. The Asian Seniors Bowling Federation, ASBF, who conduct the bi-annual Asian Championships, was formed 17 years ago. At the time of the ATBSO formation the current NSO should have considered the obligations to their international affiliates and recommended that ATBSO be for 50 years and older bowlers.

 

[strop]

Peter,

Just because the response that you were expecting didn't appear, doesn't mean it has fallen on deaf ears.
I am one of many and I mean many that would have bowled at the Seniors Cup at Village bowl, so I don't see how you can make that statement that the age change made a difference.
I personally think all senior events should be run by the various ATBSO state committee's, leaving it up the TBA , well unfortunately I have little faith in them.

cheers

Tony

 

[JWhitty]

It would seem to me, and I know I'm putting my nose where it isn't needed, that if ATBSO don't want anything to do with TBA, then ATBSO should go do their thing. If ATBSO want to create and host ATBSO events, go for it. If you don't want TBA's tournament condition, don't put it down. If you don't like the rankings system, create an ATBSO one and run it within the ATBSO spots.

TBA have to keep in line with the international bodies with which it is affiliated, and they do so. It seems to me, and I know I'm going to regret this statement, that you're trying to have the best of both.

If it makes you 45-50s feel any better, and I'm sure it won't, I have to wait another 26 YEARS before I fit into 50+, you only have to wait <5...

While we're at it though, I'm only 1 year over the youth hurdle, maybe we could open that out five years too?

 

[Belly]

Peter,

I have read your response and as long as consise as it was I think there may still be a bit of TBA left in you. In answer to your points I shall try to respond as an Over 45's member.

1. You are quite correct that in 2006 there are 6 events listed and whilst the ATBSO state committee's only run 2 events I quess you mean Melb and Adelaide, I think that its the ATBSO emembers in Queensland and ACT that are behind the events. The other two events are held during the TBA championships so obviously the TBA run them.

2. I have heard it said that the numbers are down because it is not a selection year. I don't agree with this is the reason and I certainly don't think has anything to do with the prizefund if you do then you don't know why seniors bowl.

3. You keep saying seniors can acrue points in "power events" and the TBA keep missing the point as to why seniors bowl and based on the very few seniors that bowl in these "power events" it is not worth including these points. Perhaps the TBA could run a seniors event in every state to eliminate the need for "power points".

4. You said and I quote "Nationally there are in excess of 13000 registered players competing in league every week in Australia who are over 50" if thats the case what is the TBA doing for them? If the TBA would categorically state that the top 4 bowlers on points at a certain date, will become the Senior's Australian team then the points would make sense. Peter in regard to Taiwan all I remember was that I came close to being killed in a car accident on the way home and nobody from the TBA has ever rung to see how I was, duty of care enough said!!

5 The change from 50 to 49 as said had nothing to do with the TBA

6. In regard to the rankings points structure why don't you ask the bowlers for their opinions on what is the best system matbe the nver used Seniors advisory committee may come into use.

7. Because 82 men and 38 women registered for rankings points does not make the system correct these bowlers will do anything to get a chance to bowl for Australia, Peter a million people barrack for Collingwood does not mean they are right.

8, 9, & 10 Spoken like a true TBA person. In 2003 you told us what the TBA were going to do, not ask what do the senior bowlers want. At the meeting you formed the Seniors advisory committee and have never condulted them since.

 

[Peter Coburn]

Belly,

I have been reminded about your about face on this issue as well. The following are two notices of motion lodged by you at the ATBSO AGM in 2004.

10. It is proposed for the longevity of the Seniors organisation, that both Graded and Open Challenge events be dedicated to bowlers 50 years and over.

11. It is proposed for the longevity of the Seniors organisation, that National Masters events be dedicated to bowlers 50 years and over.

These were withdrawn prior to the AGM.

BTW, I never formed the TBA Seniors Advisory Committee this was formed before my time at the helm. When it was formed I believe that you were elected to chair this committee.

 

[Belly]

Firstly to JWhitty whoever you are I wish I had five years to wait but seeing I am 57 and bowled in the last three Australian Seniors teams I may be old enough already.

Peter
I am glad you brought up my withdrawn notice of motions. I think that it would be good for the SPORT if both the TBA and ATBSO were both 50 and over. However the ATBSO members made it very clear several times that they were formed as an over 45's organisation and wish to stay that way. So I withdrew the notice to try and bring them into line.

Now I think the TBA should recognise that we are staying an over 45's organisation and try to work with the ATBSO. A couple of suggestions

Instead of holding their seniors section of the Nationals and making bowlers stay even longer to compete in both could we not hold both the TBA ranked events during "Seniors Week" at the Nationals the TBA Seniors Cup and the TBA Seniors All Events still make then over 50 events if the TBA insist but at least bowl then when MOST of the Seniors in town. What is going to happen next year if the Seniors go to Perth will they be made to fly back to compete 2 days after the Seniors Challenge.

 

[Peter Coburn]

FYI,

Over the past 2 years the following events have been hosted by a state ASTBO body:

2006 Melbourne Seniors Cup
2006 Canberra Seniors Cup
2005 Melbourne Seniors Cup
2005 Sydney Seniors Classic

All of the other 9 senior ranked events were hosted by either TBA, the centre, an individual or an independent committee.

 

[Feral]

It would seem to me, and I know I'm putting my nose where it isn't needed, that if ATBSO don't want anything to do with TBA, then ATBSO should go do their thing. If ATBSO want to create and host ATBSO events, go for it. If you don't want TBA's tournament condition, don't put it down. If you don't like the rankings system, create an ATBSO one and run it within the ATBSO spots.
TBA have to keep in line with the international bodies with which it is affiliated, and they do so. It seems to me, and I know I'm going to regret this statement, that you're trying to have the best of both.
If it makes you 45-50s feel any better, and I'm sure it won't, I have to wait another 26 YEARS before I fit into 50+, you only have to wait <5...
While we're at it though, I'm only 1 year over the youth hurdle, maybe we could open that out five years too?

You ARE putting your nose in where it isn't needed and I hope you DO regret it.

 

[JWhitty]

Easy now, I'm just saying that if ATBSO want to run seperately, they should do so...

I hear a lot from our ATBSO bowlers here, and they seem to be getting the job done on their own. You can hardly blame TBA for confirming to their international affiliates

 

[strop]

Easy now, I'm just saying that if ATBSO want to run seperately, they should do so...
I hear a lot from our ATBSO bowlers here, and they seem to be getting the job done on their own.

quoted by JWhitty....you go right on saying what you feel.............
I hear the TBA have no problem with freedom of speech.........
There is one thing I know is there are many members of the ATBSO that know how to run and succesfully organise a top level event, and looking at the TBA over the years , many of them never even pick up a ball and bowled at top level.
The diference between the old ATBC and the new TBA is...............well not much! (did I just say that out loud) Tough.......
Cheers
Tony
(Man of little confidence with the powers that are...........)
Go the ATBSO...........

 

[Peter Coburn]

Tony

There is one thing I know is there are many members of the ATBSO that know how to run and succesfully organise a top level event, and looking at the TBA over the years, many of them never even pick up a ball and bowled at top level.

You'd better check out the scores at AO and Hobart Cup, as well as the resume of the current chairman.

So impressed are the ATBSO at how the TBA Tournament Team run a large national championship that this team of volunteers have been asked to run the 2006 ATBSO National Championship at AMF Moonah on behalf of ATBSO. As a result, and for the first time, all scores for the ATBSO Masters and Challenges will be posted live on the ATBSO website.

Additionally, I'm sure that none of these events will run 5 hours behind time.

 

[strop]

Well I'm sure the TBA tournament team does a fantastic job.............and as far as the resume of the current chairman, if your refering to Mike Seymour well I know his background very well. I am sure his heart will be in the right direction.

cheers

tony