Are we promoting Tournaments Properly?

[twenban]

There are too many tournaments with not enough prize money. There is no direction for the circuit as it is left with AMF and they shouldn't have to contend with this, they run the events.

It needs direction and leadership, ie the PBA or European circuit.

Less events, bigger prizemoney and more prestigeous. In the past local events would draw over 100 entries, and major's would draw nearly 150+ for say a Melbourne Cup. The SPC was huge at about 13000 centre entries years ago in its heyday.

Who wants to lead such a beast and put up with the criticism etc .... only a very brave man because your not going to win any friends unfortunatley for trying to do your best and give freely of your time.

 

[strop]

As Quoted by Joe

set up a constitution(could use the old ATBA to start with,maybe just refine certain rules & Reg) set a joining fee for 12 months,

Here's one we used in SA many years ago, I'm sure Vic. have there old one as well. Starting point I suppose.
The youth circuit I thought could have adopted something similar, but weren't interested.
Cheers
Tony

 

[griggsy]

I think the idea of having less tournements is a great idea. It would make travelling to compete more affordable for a lot of bowlers and make winning a tournement so much more gratifying for those who manage to do so.
What I think is a good idea is lessening the amount of tournements nationally, but for the ones that are kept as majors could then approach the other centres and such for sponsorship of that particular tournement. I guess what I'm getting at is say you have four tournements in one zone like victoria for instance, instead of having four different centres sponsor their individual tournements, how bout the other three centres provide that sponsorship money they would have done for their tournement to the one big major tournement in that zone?
Wouldn't that provide more money for the tournement and be ALOT more appealing to alot more fringe bowlers as that would enable them to have a bigger chance of cashing?
Not to mention it would attract alot of other local sponsors to join the party as it would be seen as a bigger investment and more worth while because the tournement is so much bigger.
With that extra money being thrown in from the other centres/sponsors the host centre could use some of that to publically advertise the tournement more be it via radio, papers, or what ever source you may use, which once again adds more value for money to all sponsors involved.

probably wishful thinking but just a thought

 

[Ash]

Here's a question.

If we had 7 Majors a year, Let's say...
Sa Cup - SA - Jan
AO - VIC - Mar
K & K - QLD - May
NSW Open - NSW - June
MTC - VIC - Aug
SPC - NSW - Sept
BAC - ACT - Dec

That's a pretty decent spread of events over the country, now, If each event could have a $5,000 First Prize, paying down to 50th (paying $300) for an entry fee of $280 (plus $120 annual ATBA Membership fee) Do you think we could attract 150 bowlers to each event? that 3 in 1 bowlers making back their entry fee and some change.

I don't think that's too much of a stretch, and I've done a Prizefund breakdown and this is possible. working on a format of;
10 games qualifying, cut to top 32.
Top 32 play 6 games, Cut to Top 10
Top 10 play 9 games match play

This is a pretty tried and true format, and based on 150 entries (and a $4.00 a game linage rate from the host centre) Here's what we could pay out.

Position Prize Money
1 $5,000
2 $4,000
3 $3,000
4 $2,000
5 $1,500
6 $1,200
7 $1,000
8 $900
9 $800
10 $700
11 $600
12 $600
13 $600
14 $600
15 $600
16 $600
17 $600
18 $600
19 $600
20 $600
21 $500
22 $500
23 $500
24 $500
25 $500
26 $500
27 $500
28 $500
29 $500
30 $500
31 $400
32 $400
33 $400
34 $400
35 $400
36 $400
37 $400
38 $400
39 $400
40 $400
41 $300
42 $300
43 $300
44 $300
45 $300
46 $300
47 $300
48 $300
49 $300
50 $300
Total $38,100

Not too shabby huh? That seems more like what a Major should pay out, IMHO anyways...

If you could get sponsors invovled, the entry fee would only go down.

Does this sound like a prizefund people would show up for?

Food for thought anyhoo....

 

[Coach Garvin]

I've read through many of the feedback and I can say that most of everything said is on track. Things such as entry fee to prize money ratio, travel expenses, two or three day tournaments to lengthy.

They are all valid. I don't have the answer myself, however with the posts that have been submitted most of the answers and future direction is there, just need to identify it and work proactively with it.

Next week the Women's Vic 150 is held at Keon Park. I set up a Coaching squad and invited 11 women to attend the Squad and this invite was extended and posted on Total Bowling for others who wanted to apply.

We had five women reply and they were acepted into the squad.

Out of these eleven bowlers, nine will enter the Vic 150 for the first time including a 12 year old junior.

The carrot for these women was free High Performance coaching for 11 weeks worth approximately $1400 each.

I've found on one element, that confidence is another factor why bowlers do not take the next step. Confidence with "Am I good enough".

The Vic 150 is the only ranked tournament that has a graded element and matches these graded finalists with Open level bowlers.

If the graded element was not part of the Vic 150 then Tiffany Laine Coaching would not have had a squad of 11 women and there would be most likely 10 or 11 less entries in the Vic 150 this year.

Maybe not so much as the National Tournaments, if there was a structured State based (and possibly just a one day) tournament with the graded element, we could attract many more bowlers who are just outside the elite ranks.

The graded element allows not only a good stepping stone for bowlers, it also allows them to see top bowlers in action.

I am quite happy to consider doing this Vic 150 Squad again next year as all 11 Athletes achieved a great deal of personal success and improvement.

Coach Garvin

 

[Tucker]

If each event could have a $5,000 First Prize, paying down to 50th (paying $300) for an entry fee of $280 (plus $120 annual ATBA Membership fee) Do you think we could attract 150 bowlers to each event? that 3 in 1 bowlers making back their entry fee and some change.
I don't think that's too much of a stretch, and I've done a Prizefund breakdown and this is possible. working on a format of;
10 games qualifying, cut to top 32.
Top 32 play 6 games, Cut to Top 10
Top 10 play 9 games match play
This is a pretty tried and true format, and based on 150 entries (and a $4.00 a game linage rate from the host centre) Here's what we could pay out.

Prize Money Total $38,100

Does this sound like a prizefund people would show up for?
Food for thought anyhoo....

Two things to note..
1) It will be very unlikely that the bowls will give us a $4.00 per game rate, but it's worth a try!

2) Your figures don't add up. 1,782 games @ $4.00 per = $7,128 lineage. Leaving $34,872 in the prize fund plus a

PS...You have a pretty good idea there, Ash. Let me know what I can do to help.

TUCK Out!

 

[twenban]

I would cut to the top 12 not 10 though and I would have some sort of step ladder, plus they have to be multi day events.

One day events are there to groom players for the big events. The whole major tournament thing is that there are non-major events as well so players can gauge themselves without it costing a lot of money. This is the reason I encourage bowlers to play in the Sports Series events, they are cheap and very competitive, they produce players who can aim and handle the pressure of shooting 150 and then have to keep going not give up. Plus it may be their only chance to bowl matchplay.

I will never stop seeing the value in bowling Sports Series to grrom players for the big events, it hardens and strengthens the individual.

This is one of the rare positive threads ... it could so easily work but only for the dedicated serious player.

 

[Cam S]

I would cut to the top 12 not 10 though and I would have some sort of step ladder,

I agree you need some sort of final. if u want sponsorship you need to have something to offer in return we dont have the television exposure of other sports and if we ever want to get one of our majors back on free TV or subscription tv there needs to be some sort of Final/s thats exciting to watch and can be packaged in to a number of shows, A step ladder or single elimnation for the top 4 offers that.

 

[Playa]

A lot more Tassie bowlers would travel if there were less tournaments.

Less Tournaments = Less money to forkout = More appeal

 

[CHIN]

It's great to see people getting on here with so many good ideas. Just shows if we all work together we should be able to get something that will work.

Like I said earlier, I dont think we have the quality of bowlers to sustain so many Major Tournaments. I think the chances of getting 150 bowlers to every Tournament is a bit slim. When is the last time apart from the Melbourne Cup have we had over 100 entries at a Nationaly ranked event.
With a $300 entry fee at the moment we struggle for 70-80 entry's for a National Tournament at the moment.
If we are relying on the fringe bowlers to make up the numbers for these Tournaments we cant stack the top 5 placings. They will not waste there money if you have to make the top 10 or 12 to cover there expenses. If Matchplay is cut to the top 16, 20 or 24 for the Majors you have more realistic chance the fringe bowlers will think they have a chance of cutting, instead of the same 10 or 12 top bowlers filling the matchplay every Tournament.

I agree $5,000 first prize is a great idea, but the prize money needs to be more evenly spread rather than stacked up top. To do that maybe $4,000 first prize and prop up the lower placings might attract more entry's.

4 Major Tournaments. Minimum $4,000 first prize.

Australin Open - April - (Rotated Nationally)
Melbourne Cup - June - VIC
Sth Pacific Classic - September - NSW
Brunswick Cup - December - Canberra

3 National Tournaments. Minimum $2,500 first prize.

S.A. Cup - January - S.A.
K & K - May - QLD
NSW Open - August - NSW

Nothing stopping each State running rolloffs for free entry into National/Major events though out the year to increase entry's at these events.

And each State run there own 4-6 tournament local circuit to give there regular tournament bowlers & local fringe bowlers the experience they need before stepping up to the National stage.

 

[CY]

Firstly there is not enough promotion within the centres themselves, how many centres have counter staff that are non bowlers or social bowlers, who have absolutely no idea what any of the tournaments are about let alone go down amongst their league bowlers and talk to them about the forthcoming tournaments.

There is a definate need for tournaments more along the lines of the Vic 150 as an 175-180 average bowler I know I can't compete in tournaments like the Australian Open etc, all I would be doing is boosting numbers and adding more money into the prize fund for the same bowlers to take home.

I would love to be able to compete in more tournaments and I know other bowlers male and female who would bowl in tournaments if they had some chance of making the cut and therefore being able to maybe cash.

The way of tournaments these days are aimed purely for the high 200 plus average bowler.

I would have loved to be able to compete at the Vic 150 but again the money issue has raised its ugly head.

Being Easter airfare costs etc are higher than off peak times.

Being not quite old enough for the seniors circuit since the change of age back to 50, this has left me with no tournaments that I feel that I can comfortably bowl in on an equal level with the other bowlers.

Numbers would boost if you could combine a scratch and handicapped division in some of the tournaments.

This type of tournament would give incentive for the lower average bowlers to start competing in tournaments.

Just my two cents worth.

Carolyn

 

[GeorgeF]

Forgot to mention our NZ counterparts have a great formula in place for their National events. They incorporate the Open, Senior and Youth divisions into the same tournament. Everyone bowls together but the prizefunds and scores are seperate.

There are some great positives to this:

1. Sponsorship - to go to a sponsor and say " we will have 160 bowlers participating in this event " is alot better than saying we got 50. This also allows the bowlers a bit of pull when it comes down to negotiating a good game rate.

2. Atmosphere - It's great to have youth, senior and open bowling together. I've met some great youth and senior bowlers but I dont get that much of a chance to bowl with them. When I bowled the 2 stops in NZ I bowled with a youth bowler and a senior bowler, its was alot of fun! I'm sure they appreciated it, meeting new people and putting some fun back into bowling was a great experience.

3. Tournaments - NZ have a Super 7 series, thats it! They don't have 16 Nationally ranked stops, its a clear and concise schedule timed well and affordable for most.

Our sheep shagger friends may not have the best bowlers on the planet but they certainly have one of the best series in the World.

What will it take to run a National stop in Australia which incorporates all 3 divisions?? maybe Brunswick in December?

 

[Easy Tiger]

What will it take to run a National stop in Australia which incorporates all 3 divisions?? maybe Brunswick in December?

I've never seen the point in having Brunswick youth the weekend before the Open one.. how many youth bowlers in all honesty are going to fly down twice in 2 weeks right before Christmas.. and there aren't many that could/would stay down there a week to hang around either.

 

[GUS]

A lot more Tassie bowlers would travel if there were less tournaments.
Less Tournaments = Less money to forkout = More appeal

I am sorry Chris but I have to disagree with you on that one. We cant get enough bowlers to have a Local Tournament scene so why are ppl all of a sudden going to consistently travel to different states to bowl "Major" events? Remember we only had 2 Bowlers confirm to bowl for a recent Win-a-spot (which was cancelled), and Hobart Cup last year only had 7 Hobart Bowlers Participate in their own centre! No Travel expenses and they still didnt bowl, so why are they going to fork out $300 + Travel/living Expenses to go to the Mainland?

Having less events will have no bearing on what happens from/in Tassie. I reckon I would be able to count on 1 hand the number of bowlers who would/have travelled, from Tassie, and bowled more than 2 events in the last 2 Years (Rachuig/Youth/Shield/Nationals not incl).

So saying less events = more Tasmanian bowlers is not quite the right answer. The appeal might be there, but that doesnt mean they will bowl.

What we need is for the island to float north and join back up to the Mainland so we can drive the car. ;-)

Then you may see an increase in the number on Tasmanian's who Bowl in Major events. But until that time, it will be the same 2, 3, or 4 ppl who bowl. I wouldn't call that "a lot", would you?

 

[twenban]

Have to agree with George on this one, the event should be all three sections at the same time. Just with the Seniors and Juniors scheduled to compete in the open events as well as their own.

You could have three day events with the Seniors and Juniors events as one day events and the open event over the three days. That way numbers of the open event would be way up as they would get the players that cashed in their respective events entering in the open event.

Just a thought ...

 

[xpense]

the idea of all 3 divisions is a good one. it has been suggested a couple of times in the thread now.

These could easily be run over 2 days. qualifying day 1, finals for all 3 day 2.

It would mean that sponsors would get better value for money. (afterall, have you been to a final the second day and seen just how few people actually turn up if they do not make it. the interstaters usually start the treck home earlier, if this miss the cut - me included)

Another way would be to make the finals a little more interesting. The standard head to head matchplay, does not seem to draw the interest anymore, so something needs to be done. the 3 to a pair is interesting, still give the head to head, but adds the extra element to the final.

Also you need to have more than top 10 or 12, as someone mentioned, a lot af the fringe players now look at that and go, well cant make that so wont go, as l need the top 10 to cover costs.

Maybe even, heaven forbid, we ensure the prizefunds are no longer top heavy, but the money is more evenly distributed. Afterall if the prestige was re-introduced to winning a major, then perhaps the larger pay check would not be inticing. (offer the defending champion free entry, plus entry to the next major. Afterall if the 6 or 7 majors worked together this would be possible to offer.

l also agree that the state level events need to get a start again. maybe run the majors every other month, and then the odd month the state events could run.

just a couple more thoughts......Jase, once again mate great topic to start

 

[da_cowman]

I am sorry Chris but I have to disagree with you on that one. We cant get enough bowlers to have a Local Tournament scene so why are ppl all of a sudden going to consistently travel to different states to bowl "Major" events? Remember we only had 2 Bowlers confirm to bowl for a recent Win-a-spot (which was cancelled), and Hobart Cup last year only had 7 Hobart Bowlers Participate in their own centre! No Travel expenses and they still didnt bowl, so why are they going to fork out $300 + Travel/living Expenses to go to the Mainland?
Having less events will have no bearing on what happens from/in Tassie. I reckon I would be able to count on 1 hand the number of bowlers who would/have travelled, from Tassie, and bowled more than 2 events in the last 2 Years (Rachuig/Youth/Shield/Nationals not incl).
So saying less events = more Tasmanian bowlers is not quite the right answer. The appeal might be there, but that doesnt mean they will bowl.
What we need is for the island to float north and join back up to the Mainland so we can drive the car. ;-)
Then you may see an increase in the number on Tasmanian's who Bowl in Major events. But until that time, it will be the same 2, 3, or 4 ppl who bowl. I wouldn't call that "a lot", would you?

He actually got it smack on. I hate to bring a boring subject of Economics to this otherwise interesting subject. But it's like everything in the market. Prime example is the newly released PlayStation 3. There is a huge demand for the console at the moment. It's retailing for over a Thousand dollars! But has the supply of the console grows in our market and the demand drops, it's price is quick to follow. The exact same thing is happening with our tournaments. There is a mass over supply of Tournament, all still at the high original price. Less tournaments, same price... They got a chance. The demand for them is there. Just not for 14 of them, Maybe 7 or so. However, this is a huge demand for local, one day state based events... But where are all of these...?

Later Da Cowman!

 

[willey]

For those not wanting to refer to the old days when we had heaps of Bowlers, I can tell you that Bowling had it's biggest growth from the early 70's and was at it's peak about 1976. Do you know what Tournaments we had to bowl in in that time.

For NSW it was SPC, Sydney Cup, National No-Tap, Triplex, 369 and various Daybreakers with Enfield being the best Daybreaker Centre. Whats that you say the Major Tournaments were Novelty Events, exactly, all the best bowlers bowled in them.

The Grand Prix Circuit did'nt exist until well into the 80's and again it needs to be said, it would not have existed if it was'nt for Steve Mackie.

So it's not too many Tournaments that is the problem, it's the Prize Money thats the problem, it can only be Solved with the help of Major Sponsors. The NSW Grand Prix was paying good money for years, $1200 first Prizes in the mid 80's, unfortunately they were still paying the same amount in the late 90's and everyone wonders why there are no Bowlers.

Amf a few years ago was recieving Sponsorship money towards thier Grand Prix Tournaments by giving Exclusive rights to various Companies in thier Snack Bars in exchange for that Sponsorship Money. I'm sure they could revisit that scenario, if they had the Will, but unfortunately they found it Too Hard.

JMHO
willey

 

[falloutboy]

I have gone in a few tournaments over the years, but I'm looking at going in alot more now. For me years ago, I was always the person trying to improve my bowling and be as good as the top bowlers. I would go in tournaments, pretty much to test out my skills, to perform under a pressure situation, and to see if I could match it with the top bowlers.

I didn't go in any tournaments for about 5 years, but decided to go into the Under 23's classic as I knew my bowling had got alot better. It was one of the best experiences for me, because I kept up with the cut, just missing out, and I even bowled a higher overall series than a few state bowlers.

It could have gone either way, had I bowled worst, I still would've tried again next year, just to keep trying and improving my bowling. But that's my style, not to ever give up, to hang in there. But everyone is different, how you perform in a tournament always will be on your mind, when the same next year tournament comes again. But that 1 tournament made me completely change my thinking about the whole tournament scene.

I realised I could keep up with the best going around and it gave me the confidence to try out a few more tournaments, and it did help my bowling out quite alot.

In regards to tournament promotions, I've talked to quite a few bowlers about the situation. Main issues I get, some have been covered already...

In No Particular Order

1.Flight Costs
2.Entry Fee High
3.Low Payout
4.More Tournaments For Higher Average Bowlers, not enough for low-mid.
5.No Tournament Promotion at all, I hardly hear about any tournaments at all, take out websites and a voice, and it's hard to hear about tourneys. If Total Bowling had no people uploading .pdf entry details or posting tournament info, half the bowlers wouldn't hear about any at all.
6.More In house tourney's designed to target the league bowlers - and of course it needs to be announced over the mic, go around to the bowlers, talk to them about it etc.

Bowlers will read the entry details, but only 5% will ask about it. Inhouse tournaments that you can talk to and explain to league bowlers, could get them into an inhouse tournament, which could eventually lead to a bigger tournament down the track.

95% of bowlers won't come up and ask, you have to be the one to promote it and talk to individuals about it.

Long post sorry, but my opinion anyway.

 

[ms]

matt has a great point there.. tournys, whether it be inhouse or a major, needs to be promoted IN HOUSE! not everyone has the net, not everyone knows people that are high profile bowlers, not everyone knows about the tournaments..

i really think the host centre, be it major or minor tournaments need to help out with advertising.

the days of the person on the desk announcing local or state tournaments as they turn on leagues for practice are gone. i remember that when i was younger, there was someone continually talking on the mic for the entire 10 mins of practice.. introducing the monthly tournament, the state championships, masters, womens adelaide cup, whatever was coming up, it was pushed.. so the average joe bowler, knew that something was coming up they could either participate in or come down and watch the elite compete. why cant control staff still do that? chances are 60% of the bowlers wont listen, BUT why not do it!!!

even if it was only to attract 10 more entries, chances are, those 10 people will tell 2-5 people each and the next year you could have up to 50 entries more for the given tournament.

i know that a centre here in adelaide is trying to come up with ideas of having mini tournaments every month or so like some centres did have in the past. i think thats an excellent idea as here in sa, we need more smaller competitions that the middle bowler can take part in and then make their way up to the bigger tournaments.

i hope some of this makes sense.. it is rather late..

i really hope that the centre i have mentioned does actually follow thru with the plan of making these tournaments a regular thing... even if its only for there regular league bowlers.

thanks
martina