A gripe or two about bowling

[mickyd213]

Where is the fairness in the game today when a first year bowler can beat a seasoned player who has proven their bowling skills over 20+ years of top level competition?

In answer to Wayne's original question: There is no fairness in the game TODAY... I am also of the opinion that a first year player should not beat a seasoned veteran BUT it happens. Some will say because of ball technology or good bowlers having a bad day whatever and who cares for the reasons. Point in fact that in our league we had a new bowler a few seasons ago bowl with a house ball and house shoes start off a game with the front 10 strikes. (380 with Hcap) Some were good, some were ok and others just plain crap but in that game he would have beaten any seasoned bowler. Can't say it was skill, conditions or equipment in this case but this might be one of those times...

I don't think the intention of this post was to deride the sport as a whole but was borne more out of frustration. Wayne's question to me is unambiguous and is not asking whether it was bowled in this era or on this pattern or with this or that ball. If the same question had been asked by someone other than Wayne, I feel that some of the comments would have been a little more constructive and not try to read into the question too much and take it on face value irrespective of who posted it.

Flame suit on for having an opinion and agreeing with Wayne.

 

[mickyd213]

Is this over 15 games? 10 games? 4 game set? 3 game set? Maybe just one game? Maybe a 9th and 10th frame roll off? Or SUDDEN DEATH!!!?

Who cares... Has absolutely no bearing on whether or not the game is fair. The question to me is quite simple... either the game today IS or ISN'T fair.

Having said that everything I agree with everything you said after the second line.

 

[mega300]

Until I answered the post in which you mentioned the 60's-00's I had not been referring to myself, but rather any veteran bowler with winning credentials. I no longer bowl so I haven't been beated by a newcomer..hope this fact doesn't throw off your defensive interrogation....I wasn't aware that Wichita State University was a Law School, or have you been watching too much TV lately?

MY POINT IS.....A first year bowler should not beat any credentialed bowled with years of experience....DIDN'T HAPPEN THEN, SHOULDN'T HAPPEN NOW!

Well if u don't bowl any more, that might be great a thing for the sport!!!!
if u below ur trumpet any more , the world would no longer know what sound is!!!
Maybe u need to find a new website to waste ur useless self crediting without statistics, saying how good ur WERE, which i doubt very much..... i Know ur werent that good, u weren't on the pba tour or any other famous bowling tour, ur not in record books that get spoken about, So obviously u did get beaten

wake up to urself

STOP BEING SO RUDE TO COW

sorry ppl he getting behind a joke

maybe he is joking

 

[Michael Little]

I NO LONGER BOWL, so there isn't any specific incident that upset me. I mentioned Rob Garioch in my post because he said I should stop hijacking the 300 game threads and start my own.

Well there you go, instead of posting ambiguous and open stated posts that could lead to a variety of interpretations, just post exactly what you are talking about and it will stop at least a page of posts that aren't really related to the topic you are supposedly wanting to discuss. Then we can actually have a conversation about a relevant topic and maybe, just maybe you might start helping yourself dissipate your reputation for stirring the pot.

 

[mickyd213]

Well if u don't bowl any more, that might be great a thing for the sport!!!!
if u below ur trumpet any more , the world would no longer know what sound is!!!
Maybe u need to find a new website to waste ur useless self crediting without statistics, saying how good ur WERE, which i doubt very much..... i Know ur werent that good, u weren't on the pba tour or any other famous bowling tour, ur not in record books that get spoken about, So obviously u did get beaten

I think you better recheck your information before you start blowing your own trumpet.

 

[BigDaz]

Bowling is just a game of physics. all newer gear does it hit harder and at times, allow more entry angle, which isnt always a good thing.
What happens when this hypothetical "1 year bowler" is 2-3 games in and has shot his line to peices? will he know where to move? where to shoot?.
What happens if his ball is rolling up early? will he know how to get the ball thru the heads cleaner? can he adjust his speed without sacrificing accuracy?
There is 100's of scenerios where the Novice bowler will crash and burn, and the more experienced bowler will make their adjustments and carry on as normal

Seasoned "vets" are just that. anybody can physically knock objects over with another object. Only the more experienced player has the knowledge to do it under any condition, every time.

 

[Andrew S.]

IMO, I think there needs to be a change the specifications of the lane and pins themselves, make them slightly heavier, after all, pin weight have increased from original incarnation, or stop them from being so springy in reaction across the deck, also we can change the deck, angles, kickbacks, side boards, gutters to reduce carry percentages, which will tend to reduce the novice to average skill bowler carrying so many off hits and make bowlers work to hit flush pocket.

Totally agree. its interesting though that the opposite is happening with the addition of break point markers on some of the newer Lane installations.

 

[Michael Little]

In answer to Wayne's original question: There is no fairness in the game TODAY... I am also of the opinion that a first year player should not beat a seasoned veteran BUT it happens. Some will say because of ball technology or good bowlers having a bad day whatever and who cares for the reasons. Point in fact that in our league we had a new bowler a few seasons ago bowl with a house ball and house shoes start off a game with the front 10 strikes. (380 with Hcap) Some were good, some were ok and others just plain crap but in that game he would have beaten any seasoned bowler. Can't say it was skill, conditions or equipment in this case but this might be one of those times...

I don't think the intention of this post was to deride the sport as a whole but was borne more out of frustration. Wayne's question to me is unambiguous and is not asking whether it was bowled in this era or on this pattern or with this or that ball. If the same question had been asked by someone other than Wayne, I feel that some of the comments would have been a little more constructive and not try to read into the question too much and take it on face value irrespective of who posted it.

Flame suit on for having an opinion and agreeing with Wayne.

I almost agree with Wayne that it shouldn't happen in bowling yet alone any sport but it can happen, and it is all dependant on a variety of things and circumstances, and how do you measure someones progress if they are new to a sport compared to a so called veteran. And what yardstick do you use of the time it takes a newbie to beat a veteran, in bowling would you say, one game, a day of matchplay, 1 frame, in golf would you say, 1 hole, the first 9. And with any newbie in any sport there is also the variable that they could be a natural plus they dedicate time and energy into getting better quickly. You could look at surfing for an example, it is feasible someone new to the sport could outscore a seasoned pro due to natural ability, or even football, it is entirely possible for a new player to play to a similar physical standard to a seasoned player but just not have the understanding of the game and in todays fairly technical age of bowling, mixing someone with some natural ability and the willingness to increase their technical knowledge will bridge the gap between newbie and seasoned veteran in even shorter time.

In the example you mentioned, it could happen and obviously has.

This is why such an ambiguous post is just pointless without knowing what variables Wayne is wanting to highlight. I think if the question had been asked by just about anyone but Wayne, they would have probably mentioned what information they are wanting to have a conversation about and not attempt to stir peoples responses in a negative way.

 

[Michael Little]

Well if u don't bowl any more, that might be great a thing for the sport!!!!
if u below ur trumpet any more , the world would no longer know what sound is!!!
Maybe u need to find a new website to waste ur useless self crediting without statistics, saying how good ur WERE, which i doubt very much..... i Know ur werent that good, u weren't on the pba tour or any other famous bowling tour, ur not in record books that get spoken about, So obviously u did get beaten

wake up to urself

STOP BEING SO RUDE TO COW

sorry ppl he getting behind a joke

maybe he is joking

Mate, this post is a bit out of line, as much as I feel some of Wayne's posts are just there to stir for negative reasons, he has achieved a bit within the sport, you didn't check the record books too well, otherwise you would have found he actually has won a PBA tournament, way back in 78. Feel free to ask Belmo how hard it is to do this, especially in todays game.

 

[Michael Little]

Totally agree. its interesting though that the opposite is happening with the addition of break point markers on some of the newer Lane installations.

I don't really have a problem with these markers, but more so how much more carry and pin action can be achieved from using certain pins, deck angles, kickback, side boards and gutters. I am sure most people who were around can remember when the Quantums came out and they used the promotional video of bowlers throwing double scouts across the deck, do you really think it was just the ball?

And these markers can be useful sometimes, but I think there is too much reliance on them, having recently bowled the last state based training, it was reiterated quite a few times that with the patterns used, people should be hitting certain markers for their breakpoint, however it wasn't suitable for everyone.

 

[mickyd213]

I agree with you Mick that there are a lot of variables inherent with the question Wayne asked but if you put them aside and take it on face value of whether it's fair or unfair. I also agree with the fact that a little more information would have been handy to make a well informed and constructive answer but I just answered the question that was posed regardless of variables.

Maybe in hindsight, the question could have started "Should a first year bowler...." I believe that no he/she shouldn't beat a seasoned bowler but know that it has and will happen again. Bowling is such a fluid sport where on any given day anyone can beat anyone regardless of ability.

 

[granto]

About 16 years ago, I was in my first year of bowling. I bowled quite a bit, had a few bowling balls and got some good coaching too! This made it possible for me to 1...Beat Carl Bottomley in 1 game...yes 1 game only! That same year I bowled a 24 game dawn breaker, averaged 197.8 which was my best performance to that date and I beat one of my favourite all timers...Mr Alan Atkins head to head 259 to 257!
So for my conclusion...It can be done!!!

Grant

 

[Toon]

Its obvious that Wayne is trying to stir it up as always, but to be honest I agree with him yet again.

I am one of those novices of the new generation. Quite a few years ago I bowled a 300 against a bowler who has been a great bowler for over 15 years and I had only been bowling for 18 months.

To further prove Waynes point. I did it with a freshly drilled ball.

Of course, over my first 6-7 years of bowling all my biggest achievements were in league and my worst performances were in tournaments.

Why?

Easy, I didnt have the technical knowledge and years of experience. Lane conditions and ball technology mixed with alot of practice let me compete with experience bowlers in league.

Quite personally, I'd trade it all in for an all urethane, sports pattern world.

These days I am just league bowler who loves the sport, too much work and study for the competitive world.

All in all, totally agree with Wayne, but at the end of the day its never going to change. Only get worse.

 

[Roysa]

Toon with what you just said you are in a way disagreeing with him too.

You say you can compete in league but not in a tournament.

Is that cos the experienced player has more knowledge ?

Goes back to cow saying that it's highly unlikely the newbie beats the veteran over a longer session if bowling

 

[magpi17]

just a small point that none has mentioned yet, the younger generation do not have any fears by this I mean that they will put their very all into anything they try and when you don't have fear well some days it means wow did I do that and some days it means this is hard work. I don't like to compare sports but has anyone played a round of golf with some young person that has just got his handicap, he hits the ball as hard as he can, he puts straight at the hole and when it works well it works. Take bowling he lines up all he has to do is hook the ball further than his mate can, throw it harder than his mate can and of course sometimes hit the pins with enough force to knock them all over.
You see it in the bowls all the time 4 or more young people just feeding off each other.
Me I love to see it.

 

[mickyd213]

I can't see a problem with agreeing with Wayne's original statement as it is really only asking a simple question... The reality is that it has happened in the past and no doubt will happen in the future. Experience should win over inexperience but if this was the norm our competition, any competition would be stale and boring. Lets look at UFC... The bigger, stronger and more technically adept fighter can still be beaten by a lesser opponent on any given day.

 

[Toon]

Hey Roysa,

My point exactly, a newbie shouldnt beat a seasoned vet in league...but he can due to many factors.

but in tournaments its a much different story!

I guess my point is, technology and conditions can only take you so far. Once you get to the next level, the experienced knowledgable bowler will end up dominating.

 

[Casual Observer]

It was stated in another thread that Mentone has made things so easy that they have numerous 300's being bowled, almost on a daily basis. Wayne was asked to start his own thread instead of posting something like that in a thread congratulating someone on a 300 game so he has done so.

Personally, I think centres such as Mentone, and others (and we can all name them) that set up conditions so that they are so easy just make a mockery of the sport and do it only to make money. I have said this in the past so it is nothing new.

"New" bowlers can walk in the door, buy a ball and throw phone numbers and it is mainly due to the conditions being laid. Even with good equipment a new bowler will usually take some time to throw huge scores on a "reasonable" condition, whereas a seasoned bowler will know how/why/when to adjust if required and will generally score higher.

 

[MR HOLD3M]

I love Vic sports bowling series.

 

[bowlrig]

Wayne, why you need to await my reply I am not sure. My reason for having a crack in the other thread someway defeats the purpose of this thread.
A mate of mine, Rick Richmann, with 20 odd years of experience mind you, and goes ok on the lanes, bowls his first 300 and YOU cannot even say well done. I reckon Hughsy has been bowling for a while as well. Then YOU just hijack the thread with your rhetoric, which you and a couple of others tend to do on a regular basis. Mum's old saying of "if you have nothing nice to say then say nothing at all" applies so many times on forums but is never adhered to.

Now as to this thread, my take on it is similar you but not the same. It may not be fair but it is even. It is even in that you as a very seasoned ex pro bowler and me the country hick and the young whipper snapper in Melbourne all have the same access to the same balls, shoes and lane conditions as each other, therefore an even playing field in that respect.

This new bowler knows no different, the ball he buys is what is available now, so he bowls with that to best of his ability, which according to some is nonexistent. When you started you most likely had the most up to date rubber ball available and from what I have been told there was a difference. One problem I see is that the "old style" bowler has the same game with the new gear as he did with the old and therefore his scores reflect that as they have not increased much with the new stuff. The new guy has started off with this new gear and away he goes.

I read articles by blokes like Johnny Petraglia who state that trying to make the shot & scores the same as 30 years ago is ridiculous as back then it was just as easy to hit the pocket it's just we couldn't knock them over the same as these days.

People on this site and others keep referring to golf, well I think the 2 sports are that far apart from top to bottom it's not funny. The average handicap in golf has changed less than 1 shot in 25 years despite the changes in technology but at least the ruling body of golf have the balls to stand up to the major manufacturers and put restrictions in place to hold the development of equipment at a level that will keep the game where it is. In bowling I think the 3 major ball manufacturers rule the ruling body and need to be stood up to but alas it will not happen.

As far as proprietors and managers go, well they are in it for the business before the sport. If Warren at Mentone is to keep his job I believe he would have to meet certain requirements with lineage, turnover and profit. With the amount of competition around Melbourne for the bowling dollar he is doing what he needs to do. I can tell you right now that if it was a tough house in today’s financial environment it would not survive. So may explain the easier conditions.

As Mick said, maybe we start at the other end of the lanes first with heavier pins and work back from there.

No one really knows the right answer but degrading other people’s accomplishments just because you can and because it was tougher in your heyday just does not sit right with me.


Rant over for now.

Rob