2012 VIC 150 & AUSTRALIAN OPEN

[steve jones]

The comparison with golf is a good one - golf certainly has done many things over recent years to try and slow down the significant scoring issues it has had [and it's had plenty] - making many major courses longer is one such development more recently. The players in golf - as the players at this weeks Aus Open - can only do their best on whatever is put down for them..in this case some scored mesmerising numbers and well done to them. So the reality is - whatever it is it is - which is the issue.

The problem isn't the who it's the "whatever".

If as you say - and as "Chris" said - the condition on these lanes was known to generate high scores [one assumes those that put it down knew this - it wasn't luck] - why put it down in the first place? Why not challenge the elite?

Finally Drew - you are right of course - many people have a different perception of what is regarded as inflated scores. A lot has to do with ones age and experience - if 230 is now considered par and most agree it's par - then fine - however my view is that it would simply bastardise the sport and further dilutes it's credibility. You may not agree - that is your right - but on balance I don't believe 230 or so being seen as par will help the game overall in the scheme of things. Of course suggesting 230 will become par is a long bow to draw based on one event - I don't believe it will happen in my lifetime.

But I still can't understand the logic of preparing a condition that I assume was known to produce a scoring bonanza in that particular centre. If someone can help me with some balanced logic then great....maybe it's to ensure good entry numbers in 2013 - when I ran the AO, as I did for a number of years - this [inflated scores] wouldn't have been on my wish list however - until then it [the logic] escapes me utterly.

 

[CT]

For those around the game long enough, think back to the 2007 SPC held at Moorabbin, which saw a lane conditioned not suited to the surface put down. It was a struggle for everyone with 200 being a good game and generally enough to win in matchplay. This event was also filmed by the Tenpin Bowling Show. I got a copy of the DVD sent to me (might be the only time I ever get on TV), and to be honest, it was crap to watch. Nothing to do with the quality of the production, it's just not exciting for the general spectator to see bowlers busting their ass to shoot 180 games.

On the flip side, I wouldn't like to see events all the time where it is a carry contest. A mixture of high and medium scoring events is what we should have at a national level, allowing the average bowler to see how good the top bowlers in the country really are. I think it hurts the credibility of the sport equally when the best of the best average less than your half decent league bowler, as the average Joe doesn't get the amount of variables in play.

On a final note. At the Kegel Open in QLD, I averaged a neat 200 in qualifying and felt I bowled OK to just make the cut to 32. At the AO, I averaged 224 to just make the cut to 14, however I felt I spared a little better and executed better at the AO, and my result was further up the leader board as a result. At the end of the day, if you repeat your shots and know what you are doing then the scores are irrelevant, as it only matters who you compare to the other players in the field.

 

[Brenton_Davy]

Brenton - your point is well made - although I will take issue with your final word - "appropriate". The scoring, in light of what you say - may well have been "relevant" - I'm not sure scoring of this level is ever "appropriate"[more below]. But then I digress into semantics.

Jim - your final sentence is the point here of course...and whilst the players made the very best of the condition [and as Steve Lovell noted wisely in an earlier post] - all they can do is play what is put down........ the issue I have is that putting up conditions like this just undercuts even more what remains of the sports credibility....and Brenton - this to me is of much greater concern than dishing up a pie house over 3 days so it reflects the BWC condition. If it's going to be THAT easy at the BWC whoever at this level wins the right to represent Australia would [my guess] be more than capable of playing it. Why trash the event and the sport over a few days for that end result - it makes little sense to me.

But then Jim is right again - maybe I'm too old to see the forest for the trees.

Steve,

I used to think as you do, however after years of sending male competitors to the BWC who could grind out a win come up short, I have come to the conclusion that we need to adopt a "horses for courses" approach to selecting our BWC reps. In recent years our national teams have (generally) had greater levels of success because they have been trialled and selected on their performances on the types of conditions they would be competing on.

In no way am I suggesting that we should be seeing these type of numbers all the time, however I feel in this case that it is justified.

 

[CHIN]

:roflmao: Only returned to this forum just last week, after years of absence from the site to enter Vic 150, good to see nothing has changed!

Same Sh!t, different day.

 

[Easy Tiger]

How many times does this same argument have to come up? Either TBA needs to make the decision to tighten it up and just get on with it, or everyone just needs to move on and accept this is the way it is. Not every event is a carry contest, this one was.

Congratulations to Ben for winning!

 

[Gary]

:argue:artytime2: :sofa:

 

[jason_doust]

One bowler said it was too soft, one bowler said it was too hard, but little Benny Copeland said it was juuuuuuussssttttt right!

As long as someone is happy! I'm just happy to avoid the home of the speed camera on a double demerit point weekend!

There's some folks who roll the rock pretty sweet on top of that leader board. Looks like a case where a good pattern and surface match up occurred, undoubtedly by design. That house has always carried well, so never a big surprise to see big numbers come out of there. Just goes to show that you don't need 10:1 ditches to pull the numbers. You just need some considered effort on what works in your house. Local knowledge goes a long way here. HPL in any decent state, has a lot more friction than Anvilane, and medium patterns play great on it, because the blend allows a wider line and the friction is more pronounced. Bring on the strike fest. Obviously it wasn't that hard, but some houses just play easier.

Interestingly, somebody's tried to use this to defend 10:1 ditches at other events. No, sorry, that's just league shot cheating. Put this down and play in this house and give it a go. Y'all might like it!

Cheers,
Jason

 

[CHIN]

people whinge when the scores are low, people whinge when scores are high. No wonder TB is sooooo entertaining.

 

[davo90]

There were some great bowlers that didn't make the cut, if the conditions were so good wouldn't all the top players have made the cut. At the end of the day the bowlers who performed the best on the weekend walked away with the cash.

 

[Craig Ryan]

The reaction in this thread makes me laugh.

Last year same pattern, as many (if not more) 300s, the same people whinged about the same things.

Well done to those who bowled well. It was great to see three of my great mates on the podium of A.O. with someone who is like a brother to me in fourth. Hopefully the negativity of this thread does not take away from the performance of Ben over the weekend. He has worked bloody hard on his game and deserves this victory as much as anyone else regardless of the condition that was laid.

Looking forward to seeing B. Coupland at the top of many events in the future (Hopefully with C. Ryan up there as well! lol).

Congrats to all finalists in both events.

 

[Toon]

There are some bowlers out there who were born to throw a ball, there are some bowlers who didn't always have that natural ability but have put years and years of practice and money into getting the right gear, knowledge and coaching to achieve the top level. When I think of the second tier of bowlers who have made a long committment to improving their game to get to the next level. George is the first name thatm comes to mind, and Ben is the second.

He is an extremely hardworking bowling when he is training and I saw him develop as a youth bowler and I couldn't of anyone I have bowled with over a long time that deserves to represent Australia as him.


Good Job!

 

[Phluff]

The pattern itself is not an issue. The pattern is selected to roughly match the house then a technical crew make adjustments to the pattern so that when first laid it tapes the way it is supposed to tape. What happens next is what causes the high scores; Bowlers start bowling.

Look at the thread from the Kegel Open with the before and after tapes. See how much conditioner is removed after a squad and think about how that, combined with a lane surface that has had years and years of wear along a similar line, will effect the shot. Unless we recondition after each block, this will always be the case. Centres with newer surfaces will yield different results to centres with an established "line".

As for the high scores from some bowlers during qualifying, there will always be 5% of bowlers who's game matches the pattern perfectly, just as there will always be 5% who's game just cannot work on the pattern. High scores bowled in matchplay comes from the experience of the past 16 games.

 

[Belly]

As Tournament Director of both the Vic 150 & The Men's AO I watched every game bowled and let me say that the condition was conjusive to high scoring if you were technically able to repeat the shot. I saw many bowlers throw far "bigger" shots than the winners but didn't have the skill or ability to repeat the shot. Both AMP and Ben were technically the best bowlers and the result showed that.

I notice on the PBA website that Norm Duke shot 855 (289,268,279) to win the Dick Weber event, while I love Norm, I haven't seen posting slamming the PBA for setting up ditch conditions.

As for the postings comparing Geelong with Keon Par, I bowl in both centers and for the last twenty years if you put the same condition down in both centers Keon Park would always shoot 20 - 30 pins higher no matter what the scores were.

Let me finish by saying the both events were some of the most exciting bowling I have seen, people actually watched and clapped what was going on and went away excited in what they had seen, the things that make sponsors happy or do we want to make the bowling hard, tough, low scoring boring with no-one watching and bowlers saying they will never bowl there again.

 

[steve jones]

Steve - well argued - and certainly you are in the best position to form a balanced judgement having seen every game, analysed most of the players closely and combine that with 50 years of experience [well if it's not 50 - it's damned close]. I would however suggest that my point of view is strengthened by your reference to Norm Duke - and that globally scoring has been creeping out of control for some time - personally I'd draw the line in the sand of the scoring "explosion" [probably the wrong word - a little too harsh perhaps - but then I can't think all that clearly today after the Hawks loss yesterday] at July 1, 1982 - the day Glenn Allison posted his 900.

Keep well,

Steve

 

[CHIN]

As Tournament Director of both the Vic 150 & The Men's AO I watched every game bowled and let me say that the condition was conjusive to high scoring if you were technically able to repeat the shot. I saw many bowlers throw far "bigger" shots than the winners but didn't have the skill or ability to repeat the shot. Both AMP and Ben were technically the best bowlers and the result showed that.

I notice on the PBA website that Norm Duke shot 855 (289,268,279) to win the Dick Weber event, while I love Norm, I haven't seen posting slamming the PBA for setting up ditch conditions.

As for the postings comparing Geelong with Keon Par, I bowl in both centers and for the last twenty years if you put the same condition down in both centers Keon Park would always shoot 20 - 30 pins higher no matter what the scores were.

Let me finish by saying the both events were some of the most exciting bowling I have seen, people actually watched and clapped what was going on and went away excited in what they had seen, the things that make sponsors happy or do we want to make the bowling hard, tough, low scoring boring with no-one watching and bowlers saying they will never bowl there again.

you dont see that when people are throwing 160 & 170 games