The Faster the better?

N

nikkob

Can anyone with bowling credentials please help me on a bet i have had with a mate. The bet was:

"If you have two bowlers one who bowls it faster than the other and they bowl it at exactly the same spot for an entire game, who would perform better the faster bowler or the slower blower? One side of the story is that both bowlers will knock over the same amount of pins and the other is that the faster bowler will not neccessarily every time, but generally knock over more pins. Hence he would perform better"

If anyone could help me out this one it would be greatly appreciated
 
Both versions really only work in theory.
As soon as you try to bowl faster, use more muscle, you lose accuracy.
Einstein tells us that by bowling faster you'd create more energy, and then, I suspect, creating more potential pin action. Would it mean higher scores? Quite possibly. Is it likely to be true in the real world where hitting the exact same mark is highly unlikely, even for the best bowlers in the world. No.
Bowl the best way you can with your body. It's definately how you can achieve the best results.

Later Da Cowman!
 
Yes i totally agree with you and i should have mentioned this before. the bet was that it was not in fact bowlers but some sought of machine like a cannon that was bowling the ball down. so that would in effect rule out any human error.
 
In either case, there would still be a minute margin for error. But if everything was kept the same throughout a series (no adjustments) then the faster bowler might come out on top.

As the lane breaks down, the changes in oil volume will affect ball motion. Again, assuming everything stays constant, the faster bowler won't be affected to the same extent because there won't be enough time for the ball to divert off course.

In saying that, all this is theoretical because TBA doesn't allow the use of a cannon in registered tournaments. :D:D
 
i know this doesn't exactly answer your question , but there's one rule that i was taught when i started bowling a couple of years ago. It was that you could have the fastest shot in the world, but if you can't consistently hit the pocket, it's going to get you no where fast. On the other side, if u have a slow shot that will hit the pocket more often then not, you'll have a much better chance of knocking down more pins. Best experiment i ever done was got my step-dad (who's a fast bowler) to take on my sister (who is a slow bowler). She came out on top.
 
Are we talking about straight bowling or hook bowling.

Straight bowling would have absolutely no effect what so ever. If they all fall over once from that spot... chances are they'll all fall over again from that spot. Again, this is saying your throwing it exactly the same from the same spot, over the same spot.

Hook bowling... Well... there are just too many variables!

Later Da Cowman!
 
we are talking about straight bowling. so r u saying that the speed is irrelevant and that both balls will knock over the same amount of pins
 
The difference in speed as a variable may be relevant. How much faster or slower the two bowlers are might have an effect. For example, are we talking about one bowler at 25kmh and one at 18kmh. Difference not too big. Or is the 'slower' something really slow like less than 10kmh. Difference is quite big. Also the weight of the bowling would be relevant too. The difference of speed would probably have little to no effect if using a 16lb ball (heavy enough to get through the pins with less deflection) but may have a big difference if using a 6lb ball (light weight huge deflection of pins leaving it to chance and domino effect for high pin count).

Just my thoughts,
Bobba
 
But he is asking a theoretical question where accuracy is given at 100%.
If you are 100% accurate, and can strike once... when are you ever going to miss? Kids with 6 pound hiouse balls can strike at 10km, and if those house balls hit the same spot, coming from the same angle every shot... then why wouldn't they bowl 300??

Later Da Cowman!
 
Yes it is possible for kids to strike at 10kmh with a 6lb ball but even if they are given 100% accuracy with no error, the deflection of the ball when it hits the pins is what will prevent them throwing 300. The ball will deflect on a different path every shot even if it is only by 1mm and it is this variation that would prevent them.

Mathematics suggest that F=ma. The amount of Force is equal to the mass of an object multiplied by its acceleration. This suggests that the faster bowler will incur more force when hitting the pins and so given 100% accuracy theory would be on the side of the faster bowler and a heavier ball.

Again just my thoughts,
Bobba
 
Mathematics suggest that F=ma. The amount of Force is equal to the mass of an object multiplied by its acceleration. This suggests that the faster bowler will incur more force when hitting the pins and so given 100% accuracy theory would be on the side of the faster bowler and a heavier ball.

I agree up to a point, however that theory does not take into account the effects of the lubricity of the conditioner on the lane. To further explain, your F=ma makes sense only up to a point because that equation requires the object to have friction on its running surface. However, as we all know, a bowling ball on any lane with any amount of oil on it has an initial period of non-friction. For that equation to work the ball would have to have friction as it moves through the pin deck, otherwise it would deflect more off the pins due to the weight and mass of the pins. Therefore it follows that faster would be better only up to a certain point, that being the point where the ball attains optimum co-efficient of friction to impart the maximum kinetic energy upon the pins. Any slower and the ball begins to lose that kinetic energy, or roll out as we know it and any faster and the ball fails to attain optimum friction, ie the point where it imparts maximum kinetic energy upon the pins.

Now I await for someone with a degree in physics to shoot that theory down in flames............................
 
just to add the weight of the ball wasnt specified, so assume that they are are equal
 
Yes it is possible for kids to strike at 10kmh with a 6lb ball but even if they are given 100% accuracy with no error, the deflection of the ball when it hits the pins is what will prevent them throwing 300. The ball will deflect on a different path every shot even if it is only by 1mm and it is this variation that would prevent them.

Yes, I know. However, in this question asked accuracy is given at 100%. Exact everytime. Never out by a millimetre. Obviously in any real kind of environment you are correct. What I'm saying is that if the ball is thrown at EXACTLY the same speed over the EXACT spot from the EXACT same spot, with no variation at all. Then the ball's path and deflection would be EXACTLY the same. It's a theoretical question. The answer would have no place in real bowling.

Later Da Cowman!
 
What I'm saying is that if the ball is thrown at EXACTLY the same speed over the EXACT spot from the EXACT same spot, with no variation at all. Then the ball's path and deflection would be EXACTLY the same.
Yes, granted if you repeat the shot identically in this ideal scenario it will strike every time. The question was, wether throwing exactly the same shot faster is any different. Obviously with the 6lb ball the answer is "Yes, you can achieve a strike with the faster ball from a line that might otherwise deflect significantly at a slower speed"

To the other guys; F=ma is completely irrelevant, this equation will tell you how much FORCE your hand (cannon) imparted on the balls MASS to achieve a given ACCELERATION onto the lane. OR you could use the FORCE of friction to tell you how much the ball will decelerate, if you knew the value of F(friction) on a lane.

Momentum is the key, and potential energy. P=mv. This simple equation flatly states that the faster you deliver the ball the MORE ENERGY it will have when it reaches the pins (yes I know we all know that already). Given ten equally weighted pins set identically rack after rack, the requirement of P is constant. We introduce the next variable m by choosing the mass of the ball. So given P and m, we can derive the required speed (v) that the ball of weight (m) must be travelling to impart the required energy (P) onto the pins.

Now that we know we have MORE ENERGY with a FASTER ball, other variables need to be considered such as actual position of the shot.

For example, if you are in the exact spot required that all of the pins cannon into each other for a strike, the amount of energy is irrelevant ONCE YOU ACHIEVE the required amount and above. Any faster will achieve no different result.

If your placement requires a messenger to trip a corner, the energy (P) imparted upon the pins will have a range, because as we all know if you hit the deck too hard you can push the pins off the back before they have a chance to move both ways across the deck. THEREFORE your speed (v) must be between x and y for the messenger to work. Too slow (and therefore lower P) and the messenger may not reach its target, too fast and the messenger might disappear before that trip.

Alternatively if the line requires the ball to carry through the 8pin (right hand) then P must be sufficiently high that deflection as mentioned previously does not exceed the angle to the 8pin. Assuming an inelastic collision you could calculate the vector of reflection (given we know P, and can calculate the force required to move a pin) In this circumstance, faster is better up until you achieve a high enough speed (v) to counter the differential. Once you reach this point, the equations revert to the scenarios above (messengers and carry)

So there's a lot more variables happening, but I would say in conclusion that it's the balance between force and placement that achieves optimum result. Neither of these variables can dominate on its own.

In practice of course, there is actually a bit of a bell curve; the quicker bowlers (not the fastest) tend to score better in my experience.

For those that are interested, there was actually a bowling question in the NSW Physics HSC exam when I was doing it.
 
On a sub-note, I agree with Brenton to a point as well - friction within the pindeck changes the equations, but only in that it increases the force required by the pin to deflect the ball. Of course your weightblocks do the same, sometimes it will be harder to flip it over depending on its weight distribution.

Before anyone asks about revs, more revs = more acceleration, sure. This only contributes to the speed of the ball, and plugs straight into the equations above by changing the value of speed (v)
 
jwhitty u seem to have quite a decent background in physics therefore considering the orginal bet was to be decided by someone in the physics field and we haven't been able to find anyone you will have to do. i will repeat the bet:

if two balls are fired down in a straight line at a set of pins in a random position but with one ball stravelling faster than the other which one would perform better over sample of say 20 bowls.

one side was that the faster bowl would perform better

the other side was that they would produce the similar scores,


is this to hard to answer because of the too many variables involved or can you support whole heartidly one side of the story
 
Speed is not an independent factor, so no I don't think you can say either way.

Given certain circumstances, the faster ball will score higher. For other given circumstances, the slower ball will score higher. Potentially they could be too slow and too fast, so both might perform equally (poorly or well)

Angle and placement, with ball weight and material will all play a part.

So conclusion:
Speed is a factor in a much bigger equation, and must be correctly balanced with the other factors. Neither faster, nor slower, is necessarily better
 
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