Should we allow the changes to DeVeer?

[Andrew S.]

One of the problems that has not been addressed is that whilst Rachuig Team Members should be the best, or the elite, call them what you will, the fact remains that in many States this is not the case.

It is an increasing fact that a high percentage of elite bowlers do not nominate for Rachuig, thus leaving a gap which is filled in by other bowlers generally of lesser ability.

Claims that Rachuig bowlers are the best in their respective States are therefore somewhat exaggerated.

Certainly TBA may have canned De Veer in order to clarify the representational confusion, however until some form of minimum average qualification is put in place for Rachuig, many bowlers will continue to have a convincing argument that they are the best in their State simply because they made their State Rachuig Team.

Lets face it, a low average bowler in a Rachuig State shirt is probably more a cause for concern than a De Veer bowler in a De Veer State shirt.

If the Rachuig Competition continues to lose its appeal and prestige the elite may well be faced with their own scenario entitled use it or lose it.

 

[dunryc]

One of the problems that has not been addressed is that whilst Rachuig Team Members should be the best, or the elite, call them what you will, the fact remains that in many States this is not the case.
It is an increasing fact that a high percentage of elite bowlers do not nominate for Rachuig, thus leaving a gap which is filled in by other bowlers generally of lesser ability.
Claims that Rachuig bowlers are the best in their respective States are therefore somewhat exaggerated.
Certainly TBA may have canned De Veer in order to clarify the representational confusion, however until some form of minimum average qualification is put in place for Rachuig, many bowlers will continue to have a convincing argument that they are the best in their State simply because they made their State Rachuig Team.
Lets face it, a low average bowler in a Rachuig State shirt is probably more a cause for concern than a De Veer bowler in a De Veer State shirt.
If the Rachuig Competition continues to lose its appeal and prestige the elite may well be faced with their own scenario entitled use it or lose it.

Andrew,
A few valid points there.

***It is an increasing fact that a high percentage of elite bowlers do not nominate for Rachuig, thus leaving a gap which is filled in by other bowlers generally of lesser ability.***

You're absolutely right, however, it has been mentioned several times in this and other threads that one of the main reasons why this is the case, is because of the behavior of the WDV bowlers and the embarrassment and tarnishing of the prestige of State representation that WDV has caused. I'm not saying it's the only reason, lack of prize funds, leave, work and family commitments, travel and competition costs are all part of the issue, but having spoken to many ex-Rachuig bowlers over the years, the embarrassment of WDV has been the main catalyst for most of them not bowling anymore. In a perfect world, everyone would nominate for Rachuig and it truly would be the best bowlers competing. Maybe now that WDV is gone, there will be some pride and respect regained for the State Shirts and the Elite bowlers will return.

Even though most of your post is fairly negative, I like your idea of a minimum average requirement for Rachuig eligibility, although some of the smaller states and territories rely on the extra Rachuig Nominations to subsidise the costs of competing. One of the more positive ideas I've seen though. I've always been a supporter of "If you can't send at least a somewhat competitive team, don't send a team at all"

Cheers
Jan

 

[gjelectrics1]

ENOUGH ALREADY!!!!!!
DeVeer at the nationals, as we know it, is finished - regardless of whether we sub 185 avg bowlers would like it to be or not. Rachuig is, and will ALWAYS be, the premier event at the nationals, regardless of how many of our countrys' top bowlers choose to bowl in it or not.
This is getting way too personal.
Lets just get on with bowling.....PLEASE?????

Another bowler that has my feelings about it

 

[tidal wave]

Jan,
I have a question for you since you have expressed your views about both de veer bowls miss representing themselves as state reps and “If you can't send at least a somewhat competitive team, don't send a team at all"

Should a below standard Rachuig performance, at any time mean, the representative claim, by that person, also should not portray themselves as a representative ???

I draw your attention to the case of your own team mates of 06 and I do apologize in advance here to those involved, 3 of which bowled 30, 35 & 40 under entering average for the Rachuig tournament and as a team, your team only averaged 187.57 per bowler -14.2794 under team entering average , and the de veer team averaged 174.1556 per bowler from a team entering average 172.5714 after adjustment by inclusion of their all events at the nations with 6 from 7 bowling within the range of 4 over to 9 under entering average and 3 of the seven exceeding the average for the lower Rachuig averages

And you are correct about one thing #Tidal Wave" - Puffed up abberation that will eventually end up dispersed and washed up leaving a trail of debris behind it?
The trail of debris enables some debate of how to improve thing and washes out or brings down barriers that exist currently or allows the major to have their say- let the wave build

Awaiting your reply
Brad ….aka soccer mom

 

[Den]

[QUOTE=dunryc;128823]Andrew,
AYou're absolutely right, however, it has been mentioned several times in this and other threads that one of the main reasons why this is the case, is because of the behavior of the WDV bowlers and the embarrassment and tarnishing of the prestige of State representation that WDV has caused.
I have no real problem with the change that TBA are trying to bring about, however I do object to the blanket assertion that all WDV bowlers behave in a manner that is detrimental to the cause of tenpin bowling. If theres a need to be specific then do so. But do not try to tarnish an entire group of mostly well meaning people.
My personal opinion is that this thread has long pased its useby date, and is now degenerating into a farce that can only harm the sport.
My thoughts
Den

 

[dunryc]

Jan,
I have a question for you since you have expressed your views about both de veer bowls miss representing themselves as state reps and “If you can't send at least a somewhat competitive team, don't send a team at all"
Should a below standard Rachuig performance, at any time mean, the representative claim, by that person, also should not portray themselves as a representative ???
I draw your attention to the case of your own team mates of 06 and I do apologize in advance here to those involved, 3 of which bowled 30, 35 & 40 under entering average for the Rachuig tournament and as a team, your team only averaged 187.57 per bowler -14.2794 under team entering average , and the de veer team averaged 174.1556 per bowler from a team entering average 172.5714 after adjustment by inclusion of their all events at the nations with 6 from 7 bowling within the range of 4 over to 9 under entering average and 3 of the seven exceeding the average for the lower Rachuig averages
Awaiting your reply
Brad ….aka soccer mom

Brad, Brad, Brad, Clutching at straws again I see in a pathetic attempt to gain some sort of recognition and acknowledgement.

There is a distinct difference between sending away a team that doesn't perform up to it's potential, and sending away a team that isn't competitive. Even you know that, but you are obviously desperate to discredit me and keep bringing up these non-sensical ACT De Veer vs Rachuig Stats that have no relevance or bearing on the overall discussion. We didn't bowl that well in Hobart, we know this. 2 bowled well, 2 bowled OK, 2 bowled poorly and 1 bowled very badly. The fact that our worst performance came from a player that had stepped up from WDV, and obviously wasn't ready to compete at that level shows that WDV isn't working as a stepping stone. Despite our below average performance and especially not really having a bench to go to, we were still right in the hunt for a medal with 3 games to go. I consider that a competitive effort. Who knows, with a slightly better result from our bowlers that struggled, we could've easily finished 2nd or 3rd.
Your claims that as a team, you bowled over your combined entering averages again proves that some of you don't belong in the team as they are obviously managing their averages to stay eligible and could do much better. Let it go Dude! You're only making yourself look silly.

My comments about “If you can't send at least a somewhat competitive team, don't send a team at all" were in answer to the idea of having a minimum qualifying average for Rachuig eligibility. Not a bad idea, but it will probably hurt the smaller States and Territories as I explained.

Jan

 

[tidal wave]

Jan ,
right name just wrong person and if you took the time to read comments and the questions and facts before making comment your statement might just have some validity.... fact are from Hobart and your statements about sub standard preformance for rachuig hold true ...but comparing the all events for the rachuig team only and those who of the rachiug event only who bowled in your words poorly or very poorly the facts dont add up ... Now for the "I consider that a competitive effort. Who knows, with a slightly better result from our bowlers that struggled, we could've easily finished 2nd or 3rd."
is this not just another excuses...like earlier "no of us wanted to be in that warm up event and our best bowler was not there " etc .... The question still stands ....Giving your view on wearing or earning a state rep shirt does a poor performance still warrant being able to wear it when a"non-sensical ACT De Veer" make believe rep side comparatively were able to perform on average better?

 

[taps]

These threads have started to divert into personal attacks rather than concentrating on the issues at hand, issues which I recognise have 2 diametrically opposed points of view. While we can agree to disagree about the CORE issue involved in the deveer threads- that is, the fundamental changes to deveer as it has been in previous years- we should not resort to personally attacking each other. I take responsibility for starting the deveer vs rachuig thread- one which was started in anger shortly after learning of the proposed changes to the tournament- but I never desired the posts to turn into personal insults traded from bowler to fellow bowler. Guess what we all have in common- we are all BOWLERS!! Yes, some are better than others and may be proud of that but we are cogs in the same system.

To a select few members of this website- I will not resort to personally attacking you or your beliefs but believe me there is plenty that could be said. I, for one, consider myself above slagging off people I do not know. I had hoped that what was said in this forum would stay on this forum and that in REALITY everybody could get along. I'm sorry that it appears that this may not be the case. In every single one of my posts I have intentionally avoided naming people in an effort to preserve some sort of dignity both my own and that of the people involved. I now ask, Where do we go from here?

 

[dunryc]

Jan ,
right name just wrong person and if you took the time to read comments and the questions and facts before making comment your statement might just have some validity.... fact are from Hobart and your statements about sub standard preformance for rachuig hold true ...but comparing the all events for the rachuig team only and those who of the rachiug event only who bowled in your words poorly or very poorly the facts dont add up ... Now for the "I consider that a competitive effort. Who knows, with a slightly better result from our bowlers that struggled, we could've easily finished 2nd or 3rd."
is this not just another excuses...like earlier "no of us wanted to be in that warm up event and our best bowler was not there " etc .... The question still stands ....Giving your view on wearing or earning a state rep shirt does a poor performance still warrant being able to wear it when a"non-sensical ACT De Veer" make believe rep side comparatively were able to perform on average better?

I can't even make sense of half of what you've posted here, but I will answer the 2 questions you posed that are at least somewhat coherent, after I've corrected your spelling and grammar, of course.

"is this not just another excuse?" No. It's a comment. I've already admitted we didn't bowl up to our full potential.

"Given your views on wearing or earning a state rep shirt, does a poor performance still warrant being able to wear it"? Yes, absolutely. Those that have earned the right to wear the shirt, are welcome to wear it whenever they want, regardless of performance. For reasons previously stated over and over again, WDV do not have the right to wear a State Shirt, regardless of whether they bowl 2 pins or 20 pins over average. .

Jan

 

[JWhitty]

Just a thought, but suppose one were to take Brad Cook's approach and accept his comparisons, one would say "The ACT De Veer team were basically as good as the Rachuig team" (Bear with me, just facilitating facts, not my opinion!)

Therefore, shouldn't they all be bowling Rachiug in stead of WDV? I think this only furthers TBA's cause, making these comparisons - if you want to claim the De Veer bowlers are as good as the Rachiug bowlers, put them in the same pot and just roll off for the top team...

Given your views on wearing or earning a state rep shirt, does a poor performance still warrant being able to wear it?

Yes, absolutely. Those that have earned the right to wear the shirt, are welcome to wear it whenever they want, regardless of performance

Completely agree here, I bet they don't revoke the right from the Wallabies after they play a bad series. I bet Gus McKay still has his Zimbabwe rep shirt from the horror one day cricket series he was a part of over here, and I'm sure it he's proud he earned it, despite how badly he sucked that tour.

does a poor performance still warrant being able to wear it when a"non-sensical ACT De Veer" make believe rep side comparatively were able to perform on average better?

If I read this correctly, I think you've touched on the heart of the issue. Average. Performance against Average doesn't get the best team. If the Australian cricket team was picked for batting averages, Stuart MacGill would only need to hit about 15 (being 10 over average or so) to guarantee selection, very few regular bats will hit 10 over average too often, since a good batsman is consistent.

I used the phrase professional fence-sitter the other day, but the good facts are certainly starting to add up. Lots of emotional opinions does not a good argument make.

 

[CHIN]

Jan,
Should a below standard Rachuig performance, at any time mean, the representative claim, by that person, also should not portray themselves as a representative ???

Interesting, are you trying to say that you are only A State team member as long as you bowl well.

 

[CHIN]

I will not resort to personally attacking you or your beliefs but believe me there is plenty that could be said. I, for one, consider myself above slagging off people I do not know.

It seems your OK with attacking a group of people though.

Posted by Taps: post #1 De Veer vs Rachuig

How about this: If TBA thinks that they have to choose between DeVeer and Rachuig then why not get rid of Rachuig (cat amongst pigeons )

Surely, to follow the elitist mode of thought, Rachuig is a "stepping stone" to the Australian team and therefore the overall standard of Rachuig must be an embarassment to the members of the Australian team. Just out of curiosity, what has been the turnover rate of bowlers progressing to international representative teams from Rachuig?

Maybe Rachuig should be considered the middle rung before elite standard.

Before you post anymore have a real good read of post #79 of the De Veer vs Rachuig thread.

 

[tidal wave]

jeff,
you almost got it, the comparative averages were not to say the deveer averages bowler were as good as the rachuig team but as a team performance, they were better than the performance of bowlers who are on average better bowler who produce a poor performance over the 3 days of rachuig ... and their own performance during the nationals were far better than during rachiug ....
Jan, a further question does your rules also apply the coaches managers and team assistant ?

 

[dunryc]

jeff,
you almost got it, the comparative averages were not to say the deveer averages bowler were as good as the rachuig team but as a team performance, they were better than the performance of bowlers who are on average better bowler who produce a poor performance over the 3 days of rachuig ... and their own performance during the nationals were far better than during rachiug ....
Jan, a further question does your rules also apply the coaches managers and team assistant ?

OK, If anyone can actually make sense out of what Brad just posted, could you please post a translation.

As to the semi-coherent question, what are you talking about? What rules?

Jan

 

[gjelectrics1]

OK, If anyone can actually make sense out of what Brad just posted, could you please post a translation.
As to the semi-coherent question, what are you talking about? What rules?
Jan

Jan, I think what Brad was asking is ( Do the team managers, coaches and team assistants have the rights to wear their DEVEER team shirts under your guidelines)

 

[gjelectrics1]

All this comparing of statistics/ results is always open to manipulation to suit the people trying to further their case. A lot of the agro in this thread rather than being directed at a group in general ( DeVeer Bowlers for example ) should be directed at the minority of bowlers who bent the rules for their own gain. It is their actions that is causing all the unrest amongst bowlers in general. Not all Deveer bowlers are breaking the rules for their own illgotten gain, and not all Rachuig bowlers think their s**t dont stink.

 

[taps]

Not all Deveer bowlers are breaking the rules for their own illgotten gain, and not all Rachuig bowlers think their s**t dont stink.

And that is where this should all end. Well said Clemow!!

Because, Mr Chin from SA, if you read my first post properly it was designed to cause controversy- hence the reference to putting the cat amongst the pigeons.

I believe that there is a place for BOTH Deveer and Rachuig in the bowling world. Each caters to the needs of different people and allows all people to feel good about themselves as a representative sportsperson. Rachuig deserves its place as one of the pinnacles of this sport but the importance of Deveer to so many people should not be denied.

I reiterate a point that I have tried to make in my posts- some of my best bowling friends and bowlers I have bowled with and against in competition are Rachuig bowlers so I do not, on principle Mr Chin, slag off Rachuig as a group of PEOPLE just the mentality which seems to have been brewing over many years among some in the Rachuig mentality. I would never for a minute suggest that all think the same; although it seems that some of the most common gripes against Rachuig bowlers have been proven in this forum.

And that, Mr Chin and Mr Dunry and others, is all I have to say on this subject because the time for a rational discussion of the issues at hand has passed and I will not be a party to online b***h-slapping of other people. (please excuse the use of profanity)

 

[tidal wave]

gj ,
my question was in relation to both de veer and rachuig coaches, managers etc . Since jan has problems with the simplest questions, thank you for attempting to clarify, and the rules which he applies to earning the right to wear said state rep shirts and what entitles a person to be able to wear one.

 

[CHIN]

I believe that there is a place for BOTH Deveer and Rachuig in the bowling world. Each caters to the needs of different people and allows all people to feel good about themselves as a representative sportsperson. Rachuig deserves its place as one of the pinnacles of this sport but the importance of Deveer to so many people should not be denied.

Mz Taps,

I agree with you 100%, as I stated in an earlier post, if you want De Veer, go for it, get the States together and run it yourselves outside of TBA. But obviously TBA either:- will not, dont want to be, or possibly "cannot" be involved with De Veer anymore. And until TBA put out an offical reason, if they ever do, we wont know the real reason.


I wasnt going to put anything on here but as farma has already posted (below), could be close to the mark.

Does anyone know if TBA's decision is perhaps driven by Australian Sports Commission saying to TBA you can't have a "STATE REPRESENTATIVE" competition which is handicapped or includes a team of athletes who are not the "best" in each state?

Just my guess, Maybe TBA didnt have a choice.

With Tenpin Bowling trying to get some credibility & recognition as a sport instead of a recreational past time. How long have the TBA & ATBC been lobbying for Tenpin Bowling to get Commonwealth/Olympic Games status.

I do not, on principle Mr Chin, slag off Rachuig as a group of PEOPLE just the mentality which seems to have been brewing over many years among some in the Rachuig mentality. I would never for a minute suggest that all think the same; although it seems that some of the most common gripes against Rachuig bowlers have been proven in this forum.

I suppose you can read your original post either way, depending what side of the fence your sitting on. And those with 1 leg each side. Watch out for splinters.

And that, Mr Chin and Mr Dunry and others, is all I have to say on this subject because the time for a rational discussion of the issues at hand has passed and I will not be a party to online b***h-slapping of other people.

Like I said previously, I was just sitting back reading with interest until I saw your post #1 on the De Veer vs Rachuig thread & some others irrational ramblings attacking other sections & bowlers of this sport that got me involved. I have never had a problem with De Veer in any way until a week or so ago when a lot of people got on here full of there own self importance instead of maybe finding out "why" before going off the deep end. So dont sit back innocently complaining of online bitch-slapping when you were 1 of people that started the ball rolling.

 

[methomann]

Ive only come back to bowling in the last week and are very disappointed to hear that there is not going to be at all anymore de veer. I played in de veer in 2002 and utmost enjoyed my time on the team.Yeah im not a high ranked player or a player that can be as good as some of you bowlers that bowl in rachuig but i surely was very happy to be bowling for my state.Well looks like im never going to get that chance ever again if there`s never going to be a de veer team again.This is just so stupid that bowlers that are not above average bowlers are not going to get a chance in hell in representing there state.