Overseas formats, why we are behind the times.....

[GeorgeF]

There are several reasons why these new style multiple re-entry formats are used in every country in the world bar Australia. He's why we need to change and how to ensure bowling grows and encourages more lower average bowlers to participate.

The PBA changed to a qualifying, elimination format, why are we always last?

He's a format I bowled in Greece, a classic Europeen format which you'll find in most of Europe.

Category Open
Event Singles Mixed
Women handicap 8 pins per game
Professionals allowed No
Entry Fee € 130
Re-entry Fee € 100


QUALIFICATION

6 games qualification. Unlimited re-entries

Top 44 goes to the next round
There will be a desperado squad (1 game, 4 best results to final)

Total 48 bowlers go to the final

FINAL

48 qualified players will play 6 games from zero

32 continues playing against highest ranking player knock-out final’s first round, best of three games format

Rankings of players are following through final
16 continues second round, same format best of three games
8 continues third round, same format
4 best plays step-ladder final, one game
Last encounter plays best of three



This is why the format is better

* Entry fee is alot lower
* Lower entry fee's attract more bowlers (proven) whilst keeping a big 1st prize
* Bowler has the ability to keep bowling and trying make the finals. In Australia, you bowl bad first up, you go home empty.
* Giving women 8 pins a game allows women to compete for large prizemoney and play against the men (for the record, a woman won this event)
* More entries means more prizefund!!! eg. AO they had 115 people paying $275, perhaps under this format we would have 150 bowlers having over 400 entries!
* Finals formats are shorter, less games means less linage and more prizefund
* Elimination format means there is non stop excitement in the finals, every match, every frame counts

I could go on and on but you see my point. Apart from the Australian Masters we have nothing like this. Maybe one day bowling in Australia will shift out of the dark ages and move foward with the times. It's a great format and a great specticle to watch. Hope it starts soon and the marathons stop..............

 

[Graham]

Brett George from Victoria is currently planning a "re-entry" style event.

Whilst I think that his tournament is planned for a more local level, success and support from the locals could see a similar format introduced at a National Level, as tournament promoters will see thats what the bowlers want.

I know these formats work great overseas, but so do brackets etc etc. Australians think differently, and need to be tested before being introduced.

BTW - i am all for format changes. Keep any suggestions coming.

 

[01kay]

Sorry George, I don't agree with the Women +8 rule, I mean if I was a women and I won a tournament with that rule I wouldn't have felt as if I had won it fair and square.

- 01kay

P.S. Apart from that I agree with you entirely although I still think we need competitions like what we have now.

 

[Hippy??]

DOH!!!

Is it just my imagination or is it that you can't win a step ladder that you want to get rid of them????? It is a lot easier to freewheel along than it is to have to throw a good shot when you need to. I'd like to see pinfall dropped alltogether and only wins accounted for as in tennis. I agree that the formats may need to be reconsidered in this country but I would like to see a move towards winning each game made to actually have some importance...not just who throws more pins in the pit. The best bowler should still win , not just the one who happens to turn up with the right new piece of resin on a particular day.

 

[crazzzed]

Hi George, yes i have started working on a tourny with some of those things you mentioned. Currently sorting of linage costs, a centre and sponsors. As soon as i have all the details finalised i will get graham to post the entry form up on he for everyone to see.

A rough outline is that day 1 would be a quailfying day with bowlers being able to retry if they wish and there is spots available in the next squad. From there the best 'X' amount of bowlers advance to day 2 which will be a ranking squad first then cut to a knockout final.

I know it sounds abit different than what we have currently in Australia but i was hoping that a new style of tourny might draw some more players.

I'll be in touch soon with more info.

 

[micky_macca]

Re: DOH!!!

Is it just my imagination or is it that you can't win a step ladder that you want to get rid of them????? It is a lot easier to freewheel along than it is to have to throw a good shot when you need to. I'd like to see pinfall dropped alltogether and only wins accounted for as in tennis. I agree that the formats may need to be reconsidered in this country but I would like to see a move towards winning each game made to actually have some importance...not just who throws more pins in the pit. The best bowler should still win , not just the one who happens to turn up with the right new piece of resin on a particular day.

How is the best bowler going to win? Joe Bloggs could go along shooting a 175 average coz thats all he really needs to win, and hes making the shots when he needs them. But then he comes up against Bob who is averaging 230 absoloutly killing it and winning his games, by Joe gets lucky and shoots a big game and Bob just cant seem to carry this game. Games won does not mean the best bowlers is going to win, infact in my oppinion it lowers the chance of that happening!

 

[GeorgeF]

thats exactly the common thinking with bowlers in this country which is not wrong, just old! Things are changing and the new owners of the PBA realised that when they purchased the tour, it was boring!!!!! Bowling is boring! Watch a group of guys bowl countless games over heaps of days, boring!

Bowling needed a make over and focus was taken away from bowling heaps of games and changed to WINNING!!!!

Yes you can bowl 270 and lose and bowl 120 and win, it doesnt matter because the best bowler on the day will win the event, not necessarily the one who has knocked over the most pins, the one who has performed when they needed to.

The elimination format is the format for the future, in australia we dont like change, its just the way its been for ages. It will change, it may not be this year but it eventually will. Focus needs to be on winning, just like every other sport out there, tennis, squash, soccer, every sport, winning and being able to produce the goods when it counts.

The atmosphere is electric and if you could just see what its like at the High Roller, 1 game, win at all costs, you lose, you go home! Bowlers love it, spectators love it even more. I can only hope things change in the future, the sport needs the injection in these neck of the woods.........

 

[Ian Nicholls]

Hi George

The best event I have seen in the last few years was the Masters at the last nationals in Townsville.

The masters at the adult nationals is double elimination, each match of the best of three games and a 9th/10th frame playoff if a tie after the 3 games which happened.

The masters this year at the junior nationals is single elimination with a best of 5 games and total pinfall deciding if a tie after five games.

These formats are great for the nationals but for a event like the AO etc , bowlers will not travel interstate to bowl just 5 games. Refer to posting about the Seniors event in Canberra recently.

I agree the tournaments need a change but need also give bowlers value for money.


Ian Nicholls

 

[crazzzed]

Here is abit of an outline of what im trying to put together. I would be interested in peoples thoughts.

Stage 1 - Qualifying
Each squad will be 3 games. 8 squads are available. Extra attempts allowed. You must bowl at least 2 squads, with a bowlers highest 2 squads combined total determining standings for qualifing. The top 42 bowlers after the qualifying will advance to the next stage, the Seeding Stage. Pinfall is carried over after the first stage. eg. A bowler scores 650 in squad A and 580 squad B and then has a retry in squad E with a 680 he/she would have a total of 1330.

Stage 2 - Seeding
The top 42 bowlers will now bowl a further 8 games to find our top 18 bowlers to advance to the knockout stages. Total pinfall will determine final standings. At the conclusion of Stage 2, the top 18 players will advance and be ranked using there current standings. Pinfall is dropped after this stage.

Stages 3 - 5 Knockout Rounds
Highest available ranked bowler Vs lowest available ranked bowler, second highest available ranked bowler Vs second lowest available ranked bowler, etc. The knockout rounds will be over 2 games with highest pinfall advancing from the head to head battle. The winners of each head to head battle plus the highest losing pinfall advance to the next round. Pinfall is dropped after each stage.

Stage 6 Knockout Round
The 4 remaining bowlers will play 2 games, head to head with highest pinfall in each match advancing to the final. The highest available ranked bowler Vs Lowest available ranked bowler and the second highest available ranked bowler Vs second lowest available ranked bowler. The 2 winners advance to the final stage. Pinfall is dropped.

Stage 7 Final
The final round be over 2 games. The bowler with highest pinfall will be declared the winner.

 

[AdrianS]

Funny thing is i think we're the one place thats got it right. The elimination formats are too short, 42 or 56 game PBA type format a little on the longside, the 25, 27 or 31 game formats a lot of our semi majors/majors have nestles just nicely in the middle and they're all done in 2 or 3 days tops. Sure with megabuck events with 700+ entries you need to cut the field in a hurry. Give these formats a go in one day events but please leave our majors alone. Just got to add thats it's a shame PBA fans(and players) have never experienced 3 a pair matchplay , the 3 a pair finals i've bowled in the last few yrs(mainly at Warnambool) have been my most memorable tournament experiences by far.

 

[Ian Nicholls]

The format looks OK except the Knockout Rounds could be the best of 3 games or more with pinfall only deciding a draw.
The final could be 5 games. This is similar to the masters at the junior nationals (as per my previous post).

Ian Nicholls

 

[crazzzed]

thx Ian, i will look into those options.

 

[wchester]

GeorgeF....Performing when it's needed and being the best bowler on the day are rarely one and the same. Also, please make up your mind over the merits of dropping or carrying over of qualifying pinfall.

Iann....I believe we should ask the bowlers whether or not they'll travel to compete in tournaments with this format. Under the current format the AMF Super Six bowlers pay approximately 40% of their entry fee directly (or indirectly) to the host centre for lineage..Surely this isn't "value for money"

crazzzed....I like the format however your numbers for knockout stages 3-5 don't add up. Starting with 18 finalists is not possible.

 

[crazzzed]

wchester, i worked it out like this...

18 players = 9 winners + highest scoring loser advance
now we have 10 players = 5 winners + highest scoring loser advance
then there was 6 players = 3 winners + highest scoring loser advance
which would leave me with 4 players for the final two stages.

 

[You have been Munsoned]

Call me crazy, but i think that 2 game total pinfall finals suck major ass.(why does s-to-the-uck get bleeped, but ass doesn't?)
I don't belive that it is good for the spectators, i mean what if the game is over half way through the second game?? Boring. The bowlers slack off, the crowd get restless, and the sponsers dont feel that they got an "exciting" match, especially if it was on tv.

If you want a multiple game final, best of 3 or 5 is the way to go, look at tennis, and how many games have been won by someone 2 sets down?? that is excitment, especially for a final.

Also, Crazzzed, what sort of charge would you consider for qualifying? cause for a minimum of 6 games, it wouldn't want to be too expensive. and how much to re-qualify? is there another charge to bowl the top 42 section, or is it covered by the intial entry fee?

just curious

roy

 

[BELMO]

On a few points George is right!

Our formats here are very long and boring for those behind the approaches watching! It is such a long day for anyone to be watching all day.....we don’t want people to feel tired and bored when watching "us" bowlers trying our hearts out.
Maybe that’s why it’s hard for bowling here in Australia to gain sponsorship.....ITS NOT EXCITING enough for the general public to watch.
I know we are completely different to the USA, but the HIGH ROLLER is one of the most popular and exciting events in the world!


WHY?

Its format is simple.....1 game head to head with a random person, you win you go to the next round, you loose get a drink and watch a mate and cheer them on.
The fact also that the huge Prize fund at the end helps to make it more attractive......and the thought that "I can beat anyone in 1 game" makes it appealing to all bowlers, young or old, high averages or not.
And the great thing about these formats are....the scores can be so low yet so close and its just as interesting....
Exapmle.....2 guys with 119 in the 9th or 2 guys with the front 9....what ever happens next one guy will loose in each game....and thats EXCITING! Not knowing what will happen....its called suspence and its what people want when watching any kind of sport!

Now Australia cant hold a HIGH ROLLER format here because we cant expect people to Travel for possibly 1 or 2 games.... that’s where Vegas differs.... the event runs for 2 weeks with sweepers and side pots and brackets and other big events on at 3 different bowling centres all within Vegas all within the same 2 week period.... meaning play bad at 1...doesn’t matter still have 2 other events to cash in on.
But we can steal the good points about this event and add them to some of our own.

The feeling I get here in AUSTRALIA is every event the same 10 are always in the cut, same 10 are always winning the events. Same bowlers feeling like they donate to a prize fund that they hope to see a small return in at the end by running near the top 20.

But what if I was to say...here’s a format with low entry costs, less qualifying games but a greater chance for everyone to win, a chance to win a BIGGER prize fund due to the lower games been played???? (Linage of course)

This is what I think Australians would say if I gave them that option of a format..."well i might not be able to beat Belmo over 30 games but i can beat him in 3"

And that’s how we attract more entries....make a chance of winning to everyone look so close yet still be just as far!

Now im not saying this is the exact format we should use (HIGH ROLLER format) all im saying is that most would rather travel spend $700 on travel expenses play less games, with a chance to win more money and a better chance at winning the event.

But in saying that...alot of our tournaments do have so much history and it’s the decision of those who run those events to change our formats!
I can tell you now though The NSW country Open held in Orange this weekend (had to SELL THAT for dad ) won’t have the same format in the years to come.....

That’s what I think.... am open to any kind of criticism

Yours in bowling

Jason Belmonte

 

[crazzzed]

Roy, i am still working out costs. it will be depending on the linage rate i can get. im expecting it will be somewhere between $100-$150 to enter. Extra trys (1 squad-3games) could be around $30. I havent decided yet whether to have lower qualifing cost and bowlers then have to pay if they make stage 2 or if everyone should pay once at quailifying. One options is to make it a flat figure for each squad. eg. $50 per qualifiying attempts and then $50 if you make it too stage 2.
Rough figures at the moment gives me around $8,000+ prizefund based on approx 90 entries. With this multiple retry system its hard to know how much will be there for prizefund. Another thing i will be changing is the payouts. bowlers will be able to win money/prizes even if they dont make it past the first stage.

Once i have confirmed the details of the tournament i will let you all know.

 

[bowlrig]

Hi Brett,
Hope you get your tourny up and running.

You could also consider a long weekend for your tournament with two days of qualifying squads / attempts and maybe, as Belmo suggested, add a little insentive for bowlers to travel by maybe holding a mini eliminator on the Friday and/or Saturday Night/s and a brackets or sweeper on the Sunday night.
One main tournament as per your format then two or three, samller or quicker ones at night. Could make it interesting and give bowlers two or three chances at winning cash instead of one.
Anyway your format sounds interesting. Pricing will be interesting.

Rob

 

[Graham]

I made a couple of suggestions to Brett early on in the piece, and one of those was to have more squads and give people an incentive ($10-$20 discount) for entering the morning squads.

There are so many ways to do it, I wish Brett luck with his tourney.

 

[pbafire]

while it's a good idea to have re-entry's....I am a firm believer in shorter terms.

George...look at Bahrain Open....two + weeks of unlimited re-tries (of 3 game series, keeping your best 3 series) is rediculous. It gave the local's a shot to jack the scores up, and the internationals a hard time to make the cut (because the choose to only show up the last week or in some cases, even last few days). Yes it does increase prize fund....but does all that money really make it there. Ask Alan Skupin, you would be surprised how much money the 01 / 02 Bahrain Open raked in compared to what they actually paid out.

Now Qatar Open was different...more games, less day's to re-enter (for those not familiar it is a 6 game block, and one year they took your best 2 sets, the next year they only took your best 1 set..... and the qualifying was over the course of 8-10 days, not 14-20 like Bahrain).

I enjoyed those formats to a point, but it did put a hurt on my pocket just chasing the cut and riding up and down in the standings.

I would much rather put my 1 shot at a 5, 6, 8, 10 or whatever games on the line and then see where I fall out in the bunch. If I cut, great...I get to bowl more, If I don't make 1st cut, well then I didn't make the right adjustments, or made too many mental mistakes giving away single pins.

Yes, next year PBA (national) is going to all match play formats. Will the best bowler win, not always. Is it exciting to watch... YES!!

But, on the regional level, it is bowl 8 games (and then here is where it is different depending on the region)...

5 of 7 regions cut to 1/3 (called cashers) after those 8 games, then come back the next day to bowl 5 more, then total pinfall the two days (13 games) determines top 8, 16, or 32 matchplay (it is all based on how many entries to begin with).

The other 2 regions just cut to top 16 (or 32 if they had a really good tournout) after the first 8 games, then it is match play the next day...the cashers (1/3) still get paid, but the don't stay the next day to bowl the 5 more.

I think the difference between the two examples is based on trends of the number of entries as well as average driving distance for that regions competitors.

Just my 2 cents from the USA.

Scott