LATROBE VALLEY CUP (Morewell Tenpin)

[joel]

To all,

We are looking at holding a Youth Tournament on the Australia Day long weekend (18th-20th Jan 2003) at Morwell Tenpins. Prize Money of $1500.00 guaranteed for 1st place in the scratch division and $500.00 for 1st place in the handicap division. What we need to know is are there enough bowlers out there in both Youth and Junior ranks who would be interested in bowling in this event. We are basing the tournament on 78 entries. Qualifying will be over 12 games , 6 games on the Saturday and 6 games on the Sunday , with finals bowled on Monday morning cutting to top 12 scratch scores and then top 12 handicap scores. There will be 3 squads each day based on the 78 bowlers. We can secure good cheap Motel accomodation. And for those bowlers flying in from interstate we can arrange pick at Morwell or Traralgon railway station or there will be a 2 hour drive from Tullamarine Airport. For all those females / girls there will be a 7 pin start to encourage you all to come and bowl. For further info please call Morwell Tenpins / Joe Tomasinski on 0419 326 957. If you have any suggestions or comments regarding this tournament or format please post if you would be interested in attending or call us.

Joe Tomasinski (Manager Morwell Tenpins)

On a personal note I would be more than willing to pickup and take bowlers from the airport and bring them to Morwell as i will be attending this tournament myself. I would believe that there would be others willing to do the same thing.

Joel

 

[Pedro]

Hey Joel,

Australia Day weekend is 25-27 January, 2003.

 

[Jenn Star]

No offence but what is with all the 7 pin starts. What a load of bull. No offence but 7 pins again will do absolutely nothing. I don't want to start a fight i am just telling you reality.

Thanks

 

[GeorgeF]

Jeanstar

Funny you should say that because all through Europe FIQ zone all the Major European stops give all female bowlers 7-9 pins start a game. Those stupid Europeans, what would they know. I think you better contact them and tell them there formats are stupid.

G

 

[Werribee]

George,

Jenn actually has a point. She isn't bitching or anything but her point is that if you go over a majority of Youth tournaments held over the year and add 7 pins to the feamle scores it actually doesn't change the result of that tournament. Therefore why add the 7 pins? If you want to be fair add a number of pins that changes the results, but then that isn't fair for the guys, is it?

The girls don't want to add to the boys prizefund for no return, they want their own division (I realise this is a generalisation, some girls will kick arse), AND they do want to bowl, but that's why we don't have greater female numbers. (As long as the girls realise that 2 divisions does effect the prize fund break up.)

Perhaps the way Jenn said it wasn't right, but at least she is gutsy enough to say what lots are thinking. We really have to listen more to what our bowlers are saying...

By the way, the deal with the Europeans, being a wog myself I can honestly say that just because they do things a certain way it doesn't make it right.
Unless you're the head sheep the view is always the same

Werribee

 

[GeorgeF]

The Europeans have been doing it for sometime and it is a proven forumla. Being a alot bigger than perhaps we could learn something from the major players around the world. If what you say is correct that adding 7 pins a game would make no difference well no offence but the girls aren't good enough.

I know if you gave AnnMarie Putney, Amanda Bradley, Kate Wilton and few others 7 pins a game, they'd be winning almost everything in Australia. It boosts the prizefund considerably and has the ability to keep the entry fee down, ie more entries means more money to pay down.

Why not make it 10pins a game?? better yet, how about you toughen the condition a little so the girls don't have to get into a carry fest with the boys???

Hope your event runs well, just trying to give you some insight on what has worked for numerous years overseas.

G

 

[BELMO]

To those who think 7 pins a game is nothing.....

12 games qualifying = 84
15 games of matchplay (should the girls cut) = 105

add them together and its = a lot more of a start than the boys...

On a youth level....it would make it so much closer than what it is now.... b4 you disagreee with it...how about bowl in it...experiance it and then try and help the formatt and not discourage it!

If it works all through europe and all in asia...something about it must be good!

LaaaaaaaaaaaaaaTer!

 

[Pedro]

Hi Guys,

Immediately after the Melbourne Under 23 Cup we did some quick calculations to see if the additional pins added to the girls scores would have made a difference to the cut. The results are as follows:

Before adding pins only Michelle Halprin made the cut at +108 and in 14th position.

If we added 7 pins to each game of all the girls, then Michelle would have qualified at +192 and in 10th position. No other female would have made the cut.

After matchplay Michelle finished at +258 and in 14th. However, if she had an extra 7 pins per game she would have won an extra 4 games of matchplay and finished +574 and in 9th position.

If we had added an extra 8 pins per game, then Cassie Staudinger would have made matchplay and Michelle would have finished at +632 and in 8th position.

Adding 9 pins to every female would have elevated Cassie into matchplay and had Michelle finishing at +690 and in 8th position (ahead of Belmo).

Adding 10 pins to every female would have had both Cassie and Nat Shelley in matchplay and had Michelle finishing at +838 and in 6th position (and just behind Matto).

Anthony Morrell won this tournament at +1120 and for Michelle to win this tournament she would have needed an extra 17 pins per game.

In this tournament obviously the conditions played a major part. In the top ten two of the bowlers use two hands (one lefty and another righty) and the rest put a fair bit on the ball.

This post is not intended to offer a solution but to use the Melb U23 Cup as an example.

In the Mentone Junior Cup back in June the girls all got 7 pins head start per game and as a result the boys really struggled to make matchplay.

So what's the answer?

 

[GeorgeF]

toughen the conditions a little, leave it at maybe 9 pins a game.

 

[Jenn Star]

To GeorgeF,
I NEVER at any stage suggested that the 7 pin idea was "STUPID" I was just expressing an opinion that alot of girls have that are in the same situation as myself please DO NOT put words into my mouth!!! THANKS

Eddie,
Thanks for backing me up i really appriciate it.

To all those who think it is a good idea please keep this in mind. We need to make bowling fairer at all levels. Take me for example (I realise i am not everyone) I have currently a 145 average. So in a tournament like this one, i would have no hope what so ever even if i did have a 7 pin avantage.

Yes i do realise that there are some great youth girl out there that could give the guys a run for their money. I wish i was there to. But lets face reality here. There are alot of youth girls who have averages between 130 and 160 who up against the likes of Belmo on a good day would have no chance what so ever.

We should be giving the girls their own division not telling them here is 7 pins per game go chase after the guys games of at times 220 +.

That is just my opinion please respect that. I just want to try encourage more girls to bowl not discourage them. Personally I wouldn't go in this tournament on principle. Why add to the prizepool if you have NO chance of winning. I know I am not the greatest bowler but I am not the only one who has these feelings.

I am the one with the guts to make suggestions.

 

[Sean M]

Well with a 145 ave I would say you are not ready for these types of tournaments. Instead of whinging maybe you should look at a H'cap event. I know I would dread the thought of giving female bowlers like Amanda Bradley 7 pins start.

 

[Pedro]

Jenn,

You'll be pleased to know that we have added a female division into the Werribee Youth Cup. If you don't make the top 8 girls you also get a second chance in the graded division (once we add handicap to your q-scores).

Entry forms will be available shortly.

Yes, this is a blatant plug for the Werribee Youth Cup.

Male First Prize $1500.00
Female First Prize $1200.00
Graded First Prize $200.00

 

[Werribee]

Sean,

Jenn is definitely not whinging, she is on a forum expressing an opinion (isn't that the idea of the forum?), which is widely held by lots of Youth Female Bowlers in Victoria (some of which have 195+ averages but won't speak up). The idea her giving her opinion is to let tournament organisers know what their customers want. Supply and Demand are simple rules of economy.

What if the tennis put all males and females in the same tournament instead of giving them their divisions, butg told them they automatically start on 15:0? Or what if soccer did the same thing, start one goal up? Lawn Bowls? the list goes on... The girls only want a level playing field, I don't think it is asking too much.

Two ears and one mouth, we should listen twice as hard and shoot our mouths off half as much. Keep going Jenn, the message will get through!

Girls, if you feel the same way, please add a note.

Edi (and I'm sure 95% of female youth bowlers)

 

[Kelsa]

Sean, I am really sorry but I totally disagree with what you have saiad. What we want to be doing for junior and youth tournies is encouraging lower average bowlers to have a go so that they can get experience and a feel for scratch tournaments. We cant be relying on handicap to get us out of trouble all the time.

If we have two divisions in tournaments like this, we are encouraging bowlers of all abilities to give it ago. This way we are also encouraging them to stay with the sport of tenpin bowling as we are catering for bowlers of all needs and not discouraging them of going to another sport where they know there will be separate divisions for males and females and different level abilities.

When I get to a tournament and see bowlers of lower averages giving it ago I think it is great that they have the courage to get up there and try. Just look at young Fiona from NSW she bowled Sydney Cup two years ago when I first bowled at like the age of 12 or something and look where she is now, with the help of that experience I bet. Same story with Cassie from VIC, I bowled with Cassie in February this year and she has improved out of sight since. I know coaching and hard work plays a lot into this but so does tournament experience.

George, I know you are very high up in the bowling world but I think it would be advisable watch how you speak to juniors/youth. You are really discouraging them from entering into the tournament scene in the adult/youth world and from voicing their opinions because all you can do is mouth off and make their opinions and themselves feel small and not worthy. I understand that the 7 pins is working for Asia and Europe but Australia has a completely different calibre of bowlers, so who is to say it will work as well over here.

My point from this post is watch what you say to younger bowlers and dont mouth off at them for voicing their opinions. We want to encourage tournament numbers to increase not decrease by telling bowlers they arent good enough.

Sorry if I have said anything wrong or hurt anyone but this is entirely my opinion.

P.S. I am with Jenn on this, girls (well the majority anyway) want their own division so that they have a fair playing field.

 

[Kim B]

Hi guys and girls,

I'd say i would have to disagree and agree with some points of view.

Depending on the tournament the 7 pins is a good idea and sometimes it isn't. Having a go against the boys doesn't worry me at all (but may worry others). Its good to have a variety of formats for tournaments in bowling.

Beats having the same old thing time and time again.

Girls if you don't want to bowl, then don't.

But i'd say go in tournaments for experience with different formats. E.g. 7 pins head start or not, female division or all in one, ladies only events, handicapped events.

Take the advantage of these types of tournament cause once you are out of junior/youth its usually one big division.

Take care all and enjoy bowling.
Kim Barry.

 

[vicbowler]

I was talking to Joe today about the Latrobe Valley Youth Cup today and he said that he may cut to a scratch and graded divisions for match play (like the Melbourne Youth Cup). This will give both scratch and handicap bowlers a chance to cash. He also mentioned about giving the girls extra pins and said he may use this. He's in the process of working out the format and information at the moment. So this is just a rough idea of how the tournament will run.