How can they clean up Walter De Veer?

[Andrew S.]

Ok. Assuming that the averages are changed again to bring them back into line with the previous years, how else can the credibility of this comp be restored?
Some of this years handicaps were extremely doubtful to say the least. Or will sandbagging always be a part of this comp. simply because it is a handicap tournament?

 

[The Spanner]

Gee Andrew ... it's a bit early in the morning to practice your comedy routine, though you did have me laughing heartily.

Maybe some of these 'well handicapped' bowlers might need a new average? Something like a "National Average".

It's easy ... instead of taking the boring old league average, you take their previous scores in De Veer, Restricted Masters and All events over the past 2 years, plus all figures in Roll-Offs and State/Zone Champs. Get an average from these events. You must be able to put together at least 30 games from all of these tournaments to qualify. If it's higher than their league average ... SHOOT THE BASTARD. If it's lower, use the league average ... whichever one is higher.

Then we will have no more sandbaggers.

By the way ... is there such a position on the board or at the tournament known as " The Handicapper "?

 

[Hawka]

Maybe they could try and make it Mens 185 ave and under scratch
to qualifiy and women 175 and under scratch then once the teams have been established and you then get to the nationals you bowl in your allocated divisions. singles , doubles , teams and you then get handicaped on your All Events for the roll offs against all the other states therefore it could stop people sandbagging through the year to make it into the team. Also it should make for interesting bowling as all bowlers will be handicaped on the same condition set by the TBA then nobody can complain about bowling in a tough centre in there state.And I think you would find that the Men and Women that make the team wont throw off in the nationals as they want to try and win the division they have entered And I really feel it would get a bit more credibility back into Walter De Veer as the brainchild of the event Darrell Holt had intended. Look forward to your thoughts as I personally wouldnt like to see what I saw this year at the Walter De Veer tournament, bowlers keeping their averages down just to represent their states.

 

[The Spanner]

Although I'd like to see scratch qualifying, it is a handicap tournament. You will get people upset who want to represent their state on legitimate 140 averages.

Going to 100% of 200 handicap was a big mistake in my view. It only gave the sandbaggers more handicap to work with.

Go to 80% of the high avg (185).

Looking at the past results of De Veer and restricted masters over the last few years, it would seem there are a few people out there with cases to answer.

 

[Ice]

And what would happen may I ask if what a bowler bowled for all events rendered their average too high for Walter DeVeer? I rolled off on a 156 ave, (my league average at home is still about that now) but I bowled really well on those lovely lane conditions in Melbourne. Should I have been penalised because I adjusted well, or because those particular conditions suited me? Mental game is also a factor, some bowlers freak out on unknown lanes, some cope well. Would it be right to reduce a person's handicap because they have a stable mental game?

 

[Ice]

P.S Honest bowlers can't worry about these Sandbagger's. These people are first and foremost cheating themselves and their victories must be rather hollow!

 

[ladykitchener]

Well count me out if it goes to scratch qualifying. I have an ave of 131 and bowl at Caboolture in sponsors league. We get points for a scratch win and a handicap win. Now we have the best bowlers in Queensland bowling and i can honestly say that I have been lucky to win about 5 scratch points points all year!!!!!, handicap is a different story.

If De Veer went to scratch qualifying I would miss out as I do not bowl over 145 very often. I thought tba were trying to encourage lower average bowlers to give tournement bowling ago?

 

[Hawka]

Ok I see where you are coming from sure make qualifying handicapped and if you make your respective teams and happen to bowl over your average in your all events on certain conditions you still bowl but your handicap is adjusted accordingly and therefore everybody is handicapped on the same lanes and therefore it should create a more even and closer competition .

 

[Andrew S.]

Or maybe it could be changed from a handicap tournament to a graded tournament (with a ceiling on the team average) and the competition itself bowled scratch.

 

[kahlua_666]

Hi to everyone out there.
To all those I already know and to all those great new people I met this year.
Hope everyone had a great time in Melbourne.

Unfortunatley sickness did not help us at all.
I have come home very sick and still not able to do alot yet.

Anyway back to ideas for De Veer for 2005.

I have had some thoughts on the roll offs and entering averages for the De Veer Tournament.

If the average cut off is increased we will all get more to roll offs which will help alot and so long as each state as enough to roll off all states should have the same format for their roll offs.

As we all know everyone will bust their guts at the roll offs to get a place in the team.

Roll off over 3 days - 6 games per day = 18 games.
The average from the roll offs will be used as your entering average for the De Veer tournament.
Then everyone will be handicapped accordingly.

This only an idea that can be thrown in with all the others so we can come up with the best format.

Not sure on what to do for entering averages for the roll off yet but I am sure we can come up with something.
We use 31st December avarages from your league at present.

As far as I am aware each state can hold a roll off in different ways. It is probably about time that we all got together and did the same thing as we are all going to be bowling the same tournament but got into out teams very different ways.

Only a suggestion so dont shoot me down in flames ok

It may work it may and it may not and as I suggested it is only an idea.

Anyway I hope you can understand what I am trying to say.
I dont think I have had so much to say in my life. hehe.

Pam T. :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

 

[The Spanner]

And what would happen may I ask if what a bowler bowled for all events rendered their average too high for Walter DeVeer?

You would still be able to bowl, you would just have a vastly reduced handicap.

However, that is only 3 or 6 games of the total of how many you have bowled in roll offs, and state and zone champs. Can anyone give me a good reason as to why these games SHOULDN'T be counted towards your average?

If you play golf, every round you have in competition is sent back to your home club to adjust your handicap, even at the nationals.

Don't you think it would be a better system to have an average of how you bowl in different lanes, on different conditions, in different centres, not just on the same old lanes you play every week?

By the way, congrats on your 2nd in all events B grade. Well done. If I'd known u were so close I'd have offered to form a 5 person team with you to help u over the line.

 

[The Spanner]

P.S Honest bowlers can't worry about these Sandbagger's. These people are first and foremost cheating themselves and their victories must be rather hollow!

Hollow, yes. Cabinet and Wallet filling ... also yes.

 

[The Spanner]

If the average cut off is increased we will all get more to roll offs which will help alot and so long as each state as enough to roll off all states should have the same format for their roll offs.

As we all know everyone will bust their guts at the roll offs to get a place in the team.

Pam T. :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

Getting the increased numbers to the roll off is the first major challenge for us all.

 

[Ice]

Kahlua wrote

As we all know everyone will bust their guts at the roll offs to get a place in the team.
Roll off over 3 days - 6 games per day = 18 games.
The average from the roll offs will be used as your entering average for the De Veer tournament.
Then everyone will be handicapped accordingly.

Sorry, but our roll offs were held at 2 different centres, in 2 different towns. The majority of the NQ Walter DeVeer team do not live in either town where the roll offs were held and guess what? We probably would have had higher handicaps!
I don't know what the answer is.
Perhaps someone can tell me..... don't the TBA have the power to check averages closer to Walter DeVeer and re-classify any bowler, if they deem their average is not accurate? I'm sure I remember reading that somewhere. I believe it would be a start to use 90% handicap as opposed to 100%, as is recommended to all leagues these days as being the most fair method. That alone would have made Walter DeVeer a very different story. Were there actually that many with inaccurate handicaps? I'm afraid I didn't take that much notice. What about a cap of say somewhere around 45/50 as a maximum handicap?
And Yes, I think no matter what you do, there will always be someone trying to cheat the system and take advantage! (Just like tax, close a lop hole and they'll find another!)

And thanks spanner, I did actually have the all events when we left Melbourne, but a Rachuig bowler took it this week, (just wait 'til she gets home!) :evil: Kidding. It's O.K I went there expecting nothing and I am pleased with what I achieved.

 

[Ice]

Just worked it out. If handicap was taken from what you bowled all events I would have had a handicap of 12 as opposed to 44! I had a good day is all. That's a bit harsh! :cry: Don't think I would have won a single point.

 

[The Spanner]

You still haven't told me why your scores on this day should not affect your average at all? I'm happy for you that you had a good day, but why shouldn't they count towards your average in some way?

I bowl at Chermside, 1 league only. The conditions are always pretty good as they are only 4 year old lanes, and I now avg 180. If i bowled elsewere my avg might be as low as 160 or 150? Does that accurately reflect my ability? I'd say no, and when I got back on some decent lanes, I'd probably put it down to 'having a good day'.

If someone bowls in 6 leagues, they could have 6 different averages. That is RUBBISH !! One average for all.

What happens if I bowl in three leagues, and my averages are 150, 160 and 190. Lets say, with work commitments, I have to drop out of the league I bowl 190 in. Bingo ... I just bought myself 30 extra pins, and I'm now eligible to bowl in De Veer again.

There needs to be a system in place to handicap everyone on every competition game they bowl.

Spanner

 

[Ice]

O.K I see your point spanner, but I bowl in Cairns, I travel to Atherton and Innisfail for tournaments and I have bowled in Burdekin, Currajong and Kirwin for Walter DeVeer related roll offs and training weekends. I have never bowled anywhere near like I did in Melbourne, especially in the all events there. I bowled well in the 3 day Walter DeVeer, but not as much over average as my all events. That is the whole point of the game, that is the goal, if you are going to spend all that money and travel all that way to compete in nationals the goal is not to bowl average but to exceed average, sometimes you get lucky, have a good day and succeed! That is the goal for any bowler whether you are scratch or handicap. Nationals is a once a year thing, and I may never again bowl on those lanes in Melbourne. I do not believe that my skill level is any different than it was before Melbourne, the only change is added experience but I am not overnight a bowler with a skill level that deserves a 12 handicap!

 

[The Spanner]

I see your point too Lana.

How did you bowl in the roll offs, and at the tournaments in Innisfail and Atherton and the other tourneys you played in this year? Don't count training ....

I'm trying to establish a 'tournament average' for you ... not just a league average, and not just an average based on your great play at the nationals.

I'll go back to a golf scenario. Three months ago I played off an 8 handicap. I had a few good rounds, and now I'm back down to 5. I played golf with a couple of mates yesterday. What handicap should I use? The current, up to date one ... not one I had 3 months ago.

I should be able to walk into any bowling centre, swipe my TBA membership card, see the history of my bowling on a computer and see my up-to-date average come up, and that's the average I should be playing off for that day.

Spanner.

 

[deaf lefty]

how can they clean up walter de veer ?

:shock: :?

myself who is former walter de veer player for qld team in 1997 year.

myself find what difference between 1997 and currently 2004 ???

eg can our average by 31 st december into roll off on the one place before national walter de veer memorial tournament.

myself think should be 90 percent of 200 or 100 percent of 200 for everyone on this tournament following must be proof of everyone's average through tbal in last 3 years history or one year history ???

how working on through the walter de veer memorial tournment system ? it was really bit different between 1997 and 2004 year.

myself find south qld team in currently 2004 year had three male's average over 169 also four male's average under 169 what difference ? through the system.

making more clear what system in fixing up with tbal ?

cheers mate from deaflefty.

 

[The Spanner]

Hi Lefty.

Our qualifying average was from he 31st of December. This was for the roll offs, which we didn't have due to lack of numbers.

Our entering average was from 30 June. Three months before the tournament.

We had three guys in the SQ team with avg's over 169 because they went out and improved their bowling, taking their averages up along the way.

At the moment, the tourney is 100% of 200.

This year was my first year. I had a great time, but I think the whole average system needs a big overhaul.

Spanner.