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[Andrew Frawley]

Discussion point (A)
This year TBA ran 3 rolloffs for ladies, Mens and Youth National Teams.

All were open to every registered player in the country the opportunity to make their National team.

All three were played on the same condition, the 1999 World FIQ Champs.

Contrary to some opinion earlier in the year that is was unfair to NTS members, all automatic team spots were taken by the selected national training squad members.

Question 1
Should rolloffs continue to be open to all bowlers?

Question 2
Should the rolloff/trials be over 2 tournaments?

Question 3.
Should the rolloffs coincide with a major national tournament.?

Question 4.
If the lanes were the same(ie tough) at the tournament that coincided with the rolloff, would you play again?

The roll offs were an attempt to make it fair to all bowlers. Whilst not everyone can agree with the selected bowlers, everyone had their chance to perform and make the team.
I need to report to the TBA board with both my opinions and reports from bowlers.

Andrew Frawley

 

[milkman]

I can only speak for the Adult and Youth trials, as I was at both ...

Answers.
1. Should rolloffs continue to be open to all bowlers?

I believe it should be open to NTS selections only. The TBA points system, and the selections are there for a reason. Even though there was no non-NTS bowlers through to the teams, it should only be open to NTS bowlers only, to give people a reason to compete in more tournaments, for the chance to represent your country.

2. Should the rolloff/trials be over 2 tournaments?

One tournament, with a condition as close to as the one going to be held at the FIQ tournament as possible. It gives people the chance to prove to people they are good enough to play on that condition in the first place

3. Should the rolloffs coincide with a major national tournament.?

Absolutely. It makes it a hell of a lot easier for people to travel to these tournaments knowing they may still get some cash out of it, if they dont make the team. I know a lot of the interstate bowlers had that on their mind for both the Youth and Adult trials.

4. If the lanes were the same(ie tough) at the tournament that coincided with the rolloff, would you play again?

Tough lanes is always good. We dont always get a chance to bowl on these conditions, and I cant speak for anybody else, but its always a pleasure to bowl on conditions that occur overseas regularly. It really shows me where I am at compared to the other bowlers around the country.

 

[Pedro]

Frawls,

I agree with the Milkman's point of view (for once - LOL).

However, you have not taken into consideration those that can least afford to bowl these types of tournaments/roll offs. I refer to our very successful Asian Schools team. These bowlers are all under 19 and are attending full time school and, obviously, have the least amount of disposal income.

Their roll off cost was a $220.00 entry fee, plus travel, plus accommodation, plus, plus, plus. This was more than the Youth bowlers coughed up last weekend and their was a zero prize fund to compensate.

These are the bowlers that could least avoid to roll off and yet they effectively paid the most. No wonder the numbers for this roll off dropped right away (68).

A roll off inside a tournament is a must.

 

[GeorgeF]

Question 1
Should rolloffs continue to be open to all bowlers?

Yes, no arguements there


Question 2
Should the rolloff/trials be over 2 tournaments?

At least 2 events, perhaps 3. If you want the best bowlers who bowl 6 game blocks, take the first 6 game scores in qualifying over 3 events. That equals 18 games on 3 different patterns, this will show the bowlers ability to adjust to 3 different and challenging conditions, 1 of those patterns being the previous years FIQ championship pattern.


Question 3.
Should the rolloffs coincide with a major national tournament.?

Yes, without doubt


Question 4.
If the lanes were the same(ie tough) at the tournament that coincided with the rolloff, would you play again?

Yes

Just a few things also Frawls,

* Why have a NTS, why not take the 7 past the post?
* Why not use the Rachuig All Star as the Australian Team?
* There should be a set criteria on how many events one has to bowl to qualify him/her available for selection. Bowling 3 events a year and 1 league a week doesn't cut it to represent your country.

 

[Insider]

Rolloff should be open to all bowlers.
Trials should be over more then one tournament(Maybe the whole Super6, all bowled on sports conditions), but then you get back to not everyone can afford to travel to all of these.
Rolloffs should coincide with major national tournament so there is prize money for bowling well rather than $100 - $200 for 3 spots.
All major tournaments should be bowled on tough conditions, this way we can catch up with the rest of the world and if we bowl on them for long enough they won't be that tough any more.

 

[wchester]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Tahoma, Arial, Helvetica, ">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by frawls:
Discussion point (A)
This year TBA ran 3 rolloffs for ladies, Mens and Youth National Teams.

All were open to every registered player in the country the opportunity to make their National team.
Not exactly true as you well know. I for one wasn't given the opportunity

All three were played on the same condition, the 1999 World FIQ Champs.
Same pattern perhaps, but we can all see what a difference the lane surface makes

Question 1
Should rolloffs continue to be open to all bowlers?
YES ! Seeing as the NTS was the result of a selection process, I believe ALL bowlers should get a shot at bowling their way onto the team.

Question 2
Should the rolloff/trials be over 2 tournaments?
One tournament is preferable but I'd like to see a different oil pattern each day. That way we can get a more accurate reading on which bowlers can perform best on a variety of conditions. This year, with a re-oil before each squad AND the same pattern laid each day we saw very little change in who scored well each day.

Question 3.
Should the rolloffs coincide with a major national tournament.?
YES !

Question 4.
If the lanes were the same(ie tough) at the tournament that coincided with the rolloff, would you play again?
YES !..again and again.

The roll offs were an attempt to make it fair to all bowlers. Whilst not everyone can agree with the selected bowlers, everyone had their chance to perform and make the team.
I need to report to the TBA board with both my opinions and reports from bowlers.

Andrew Frawley<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

 

[Matty_O]

The chance to make a national team should be open to all bowlers, if they're in the NTS or not. The roll-off should be structured accordingly to accomodate the number of entries recieved. The Youth roll-off at Mentone on the weekend, was a perfect example. Bowling started at 9 in the morning and didn't finish untill 11:30 at night.
4 man teams meant you had to wait ten minutes between shots, and even longer sometimes between games.
I arrived home at 12:45 sat night and had to bowl at 9 the next morning.
Running the roll-off during a major tourny would be a great idea. It worked well at AO, it could work for the youth team aswell.
As long as the condition is similar to the one that will face bowlers at FIQ, one tourny should be sufficient.
Conditions like the ones faced at the trials are awesome. No one likes a carry competition! Bring em on more often i say.

CONGRATS TO EVERY ONE WHO WILL WEAR THE GREEN AND GOLD THIS YEAR!!!! GO GET SOME GOLD!!!!!!!!1

 

[BELMO]

Matty o
the reason for the 4 man team.....When you go away for FIQ u bowl a Singles, doubles and a 4 man team.... 6 games each..like we did at the youth roll off

Its a way to find out who the best bowlers are in all the types of formatts you will encounter AT FIQ

It did take a long time between shots, but tats what happens overseas, And with some Country strategies you may be waiting longer than you did in MEL
Thats a reason why 4 man teams was used!!!

to Frawls post..
1. Dont care
2. Dont mind
3. YES
4. YES

laaaaaaaaaaater

 

[joel]

Frawls,

In response to your first question. No i dont think it should be open to all bowlers. This is why i beleive we select a national training squad as they are the bowlers that want to compete at FIQ. Therefore they are the bowlers that should be rolling off for that particular team.

Your second question, i think with the money constraint being so high for some bowlers i think one tournament is enough. Simply from the fact that on a tough condition like we bowled on, no bowler is going to get lucky and make the team. The truth is you simply dont get lucky enough over 18 games on that condition to fluke a spot in the team. Therefore one tournament with 18 games is sufficient.

Your third question, well this is a tough one. A case can be made coming from the money side as holding another tournment would cost more money to bowlers. However, if we look at the Australian Open condition and its field there were some bowlers who were there to simply bowl the tournament and not even considering to make the FIQ team. Now if we continue to lay down such tough conditions in tournaments how many of those bowlers r going to come back next year?? Eventually bowlers will not enter because of the condition and the tournament will be struggling for entries. So a case either way can be made.

Your fourth question, well i kinda answered in the previous..i personally would come back and play again on that condition as it is the only way to improve my bowling. However, there are some out there i believe that would not. This is because they have no interest in making FIQ. They r there to bowl the tournament and if they dont score will not come back and hence the tournament will lose entries.

Some final thoughts is that it is a tough situation to please everybody. The elite bowlers may wish to continue to come back to tournaments with such conditions but others there may not. I would personally like to see the FIQ conditions laid down but im afraid the number of entries into the tournament will drop and therefore in the long run the tournament may fold.

Joel Lovegrove

 

[Just Kidding]

Andrew,

It is great to see that feedback is being sought in an open forum.

Question 1
Should rolloffs continue to be open to all bowlers?

My son bowled on the weekend in the Youth tournament and eventhough he is not on the NTS it still gave him an opportunity to bowl and compete with elite youth bowlers on conditions that are not seen in other tournaments. Up and coming youth bowlers need to be able to experience what they are perhaps ultimately striving for. So the answer is yes it should be opened to all bowlers.

Question 2
Should the rolloff/trials be over 2 tournaments?

No, I believe it should be over one tournament because of cost and time factor. It may difficult to attract bowlers from interstate if held over two tournaments because of cost.

Question 3.
Should the rolloffs coincide with a major national tournament.?

Definetly Yes.

Question 4.
If the lanes were the same(ie tough) at the tournament that coincided with the rolloff, would you play again?

My son said...Absolutely. The experience gained when bowling on tough conditions is invaluable. It really shows where your strengths and weakness lie and obviously good bowlers will succeed in the end. Tough conditions will breed good competitors.

 

[Kelsa]

Andrew, even though I was unable to bowl the events nominated for the FIQ team roll offs I think I am still able to put my opinion forward.

Q1.

Yes I do believe that the roll off tournaments should be open to all bowlers. Just a question to Joel, do you think bowlers who are not in NTS dont strive to represent their country one day?? I think that is a pretty poor statement to make. Maybe the bowlers who didnt make NTS want it as bad as what the bowlers who did make it do. So having the tournament open to anyone is a good idea, as it gives those bowlers a chance to improve their skill on an FIQ condition and to also show that maybe they are as good as or close to as good as the people who made NTS.

Q2.

I think one event is sufficient enough. However I do agree with the idea of taking the results from the super 6's for the adult mens team especially and using that as a process to select/make the team.

Q3.

I do agree with this, as I think it saves bowlers time and money. By time I mean that it is less time that has to be taken from work, school, uni or whatever the case maybe. It also adds incentive by having the chance of being able to make some cash while trying out to represent your country.

Q4.

I cant really comment on this one, but I think tough lanes are a great learning experience, and as someone said before if we keep putting them down,we will get used to them, which means we may bring Australian bowling into line with what other countries experiencing.

Just my opinion.

 

[SCOOPS]

Ok guys you gotta help me out here with this whole NTS situation.

It is the National Training Squad correct?

Can i ask when was the last time the Squad trained together?


<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Tahoma, Arial, Helvetica, ">quote:</font><HR> Question 1
Should rolloffs continue to be open to all bowlers?

Question 2
Should the rolloff/trials be over 2 tournaments?

Question 3.
Should the rolloffs coincide with a major national tournament.?

Question 4.
If the lanes were the same(ie tough) at the tournament that coincided with the rolloff, would you play again?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
So in answer to your questoins Frawls

1 - A national team should be an open situation and i believe the idea of having a points table is great.

2- I also believe that the Roll-Off idea is a good one and yes I would like to see 2 maybe 3 events involved same format as AO, however a different condition each day for each event, including the Matchplay.

3- Yes i think the roll-offs should coincide with major events. With these economic times it seems the most feasible solution for the majority. However choosing which event will be a dooosy I mean you couldnt use Perth Cup as a Tourney nor could you use something in Tassie or should the question be should each year the tournaments used rotate around the rated events of the country..
I'm quite sure there were bowlers at the AO that dont bowl outside their own state and this could give a house pro an advantage and as said previously by someone - do you want someone representing their country who plays 3 or less events a year and 1 league a week (mmmm sounds like someone i know....me.. lol)

4- I think the conditions should be different each day of the event and if possible dramatically different. I know people are going to say it advantages those in their home state not having to lug so many balls around the country, but we want to see bowlers gain entry based on being able to adapt quickly however using 2-3 events will really weed the house pros out, we hope.
Lets face it if you had a roll off one year at lets say Fairlanes during the Perth Cup theres every chance you could have a guy who bowls only that event each year shoot 200over and win a spot into the team.

This is only my humble opinion and give praise to those making the decisions of out future representative teams. as you're always going to be in a 'lose-lose' situation

Look i could be completely wrong with what i have said, but please someone help me out with this whole NTS situation.
Looking forward to hearing some more replies

Good Luck to all Aussies reps, lets hope you all enjoy, do your best, and "IN SHALLAH" bring some medals back, any colour will do, but GOLD is nice

 

[Matty_O]

Belmo,

I'm well aware the roll-offs are designed to recreate the type of situation bowlers will face overseas if they make the team. It's a great idea.

Anyone can correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm guessing that at FIQ you aren't in a bowling centre for twelve and a half hours straight, with only a fourty minutes break between the six game blocks.
Then have to come back the next morning after only a few hours sleep and roll another six.

The day was too long, bowlers were exuasted. It was almost a case of who was awake scored in the teams.The slowness of the pin spotters didn't help, but a review of the format mide be an idea for next year.

Just a thaught

 

[Pedro]

Matty_O,

In some recent FIQ events, some squads have not finished until at least 2.00AM and that same group of bowlers were required back to bowl another squad at 9.00AM that same morning.

Although, I'm yet to attend one of these events overseas I understand that this is very typical.

Last weekend tested endurance as well as your ability to bowl on the condition we'd expect at this level. From this we obviously got the best team.

 

[joel]

Hey all,

In response to the question posed to me by Kel.

Yes I would agree with you that bowlers outside the national training squad do strive to represent their country. However, I believe the stepping stone to roll-off for the FIQ team is to be in the national training squad. These bowlers in the national training squad are the elite and the ones that have supported tournaments and TBA. They are in the NTS because they have shown they are capable on a variiety of conditions over many tornaments.
Otherwise what is the benefit of being in the NTS? There should be some reward in my opinion.

Joel

 

[Jessy_2_Messy]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Tahoma, Arial, Helvetica, ">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by wchester:

Should rolloffs continue to be open to all bowlers?
YES ! Seeing as the NTS was the result of a selection process, I believe ALL bowlers should get a shot at bowling their way onto the team.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Joel, I think this is the best point made to show that the Roll offs should be open to all bowlers but no1 made it that wasn't in the NTS and since the NTS are the best bowlers then no1 ever will so why not open it to everyone just for experience?

 

[amanda]

1. Yes it prob should be open to all bowlers, although being a member of the NTS is supposed to be a recognised pathway into making a FIQ team. However at the present moment it seems that just about everybody is in a NTS of some sort. To Berto it is not ppl who have loads of cash (although it helps) who travel to these tournaments all the time. I myself have no sustainable income yet manage to fund my way to bowl these tournaments. How? It is called budgeting.

2. Two tournies, prob no, but instead within the one tournament to have 2,3 or 4 different conditions to play on, ie variables of what may occur overseas to within specific variables, ie accounting for lane surface, weather n temp etc

3. Yes to this as costs are reduced.

4. Yes they should be significantly different to normal conditions we face and quite possibly as close to what is bound to be experienced when o/s. Having said that it is prob also in bowlers best interests to
play on the similar lane surface that they will face when going away and not the centre with the cheapest rates.

Michael

 

[Tiger Bottomley]

Frawls,

I believe the association is on the right track. As we saw there was no carry on about the bowlers who bowled their way into the team only some whiges re the selected brigade.

Unfortunately while I believe there needs to be some selections there is less complaining when it is purely roll off.

I feel that the rolloffs need to be over more than one event for fairness. We all know the bad weekend etc but the other reason is that regardless of the oil or pattern the house charateristics will play a major role.

A finally I see only benefits in holding the events during other majors. That being said I know that you would like to mimic FIQ as close as possible but I'd hate to see all majors become 6 game qualifiers. As George said take the first 6 games on each day.

My only other issue would be the added expense in more tourny's associated with the KEGEL and the staff to use that machine. I would guess it would be an expensive exercise if we brought a guy from OS for all these events given there are Men, Women and Youth but this is more an issue for the TBA and not the bowler.

All in all I agree with the process and hope all others get behind it to produce the best outcomes.

 

[farma]

Everyone thoughts are interesting and I think that you will never come up with the perfect formula, as someone will always be disadvantaged.

I'll tell you what we are doing over here in NZ, although maybe you don't care, but it is always interesting to compare systems.

Up till about 6 years ago we had a complete team selection by selectors.

Then we changed to a complete self selection system which required everyone to bowl in a minimum of 7 (6 for Youth)tournaments (including the national championships) during a calendar year. Your best 7 tournament averages (so the more you bowled the better) for the year then counted towards your average for the year, and any representative teams for the following year were picked in order from these rankings.

This is the basis for our 2002 teams.

For 2003 we have changed the system slightly. Still a minimum of 7 tournament (including the nationals), but we are using a points system. Points scored in all tournaments count. At the end of the 2002 the top 2 (1 for youth) bowlers on points for the year automatically make the team for next years world champs (asian zones for youth). The next 12 (9 for youth) bowlers on points will be invited to bowl in a trial over one weekend, two centres, and 32 games, with the top 4 (3 for youth) making the respective team.

Anyone can earn the right to bowl the trial, but you have to earn the right, and then anyone can earn the right to make the team.

I think that is what it is all about "earning your spot on the team". You can't get lucky for a whole year, and there is no subjectivity.

Anyhow enjoy yourself all with this one, cause you'll never be right whatever you do!!!!!

 

[JoSpencer]

Frawls

I feel that the roll off should only be open to NTS Bowlers. This is merely based on the pathways that have been set in place. To be honest, under the current system the NTS doesn't seem to mean much.

Should the roll off be over more than one event? I don't think it's the roll of side of things that should be questioned, other than who is eligible. If there must be a roll off there must be a roll off.

I feel it's the selection process. I understand that no matter what happens in selection not everyone will be happy.

I agree with a previous post I read somewhere else in this forum, regarding the bowlers understanding the criteria before the selection is made etc and also a lot or too much emphasis is placed on performances in Rachuig etc (eg All Stars)

My suggestions:
1. Bowlers know the criteria prior to the trial / selection. Probably contained within the NTS Application form.

2. Bowlers know who will be selecting the team

3. Team selected on merrit of achievements in various tournaments not just one event / trial / Rachuig, which is where Ranked tournaments come into play.

4. By having Ranked Events form a major part of the selection process this will continue to encourage bowlers to attend ranked events. Currently my attitude toward travelling to ranked events is "why bother wasting my time and money it obviously don't count for anything".

5. I understand "Technique" plays a big part of this game however, if "technique" is to be a part of the selection process (as it was this year) then it certainly must be written as a selection criteria detailing the type of 'technique', 'ball roll' etc that is required to play at this level.

Selection should be about results during the trial but with also a high regard to previous events also, and by this I mean more than Rachuig.

My thoughts for your efforts to improve the process.

Jo