C.T.B.A.M Rules

[Ozmoz]

Is there anywhere I can download C.T.B.A.M rules?

I can only find the T.B.A Ltd rules so not sure if CTBAM uses the same ones?

Regards, Oz

 

[Sumo]

CTBAM uses the TBA rules
Sumo

 

[Ozmoz]

AH cool thanks Sumo!

I'm moving from Knox to Narre Warren next year and both Leagues use C.T.B.A.M rules.

The Narre Warren League has in their constitution that "The League shall bowl on a handicap basis. The handicap shall be 80% of 200. With the maximim handicap allowed 80."

My current treasurer said that a maximum handicap isn't legal. I can't remember the exact words he said but will write them down this week.

I always thought you could have, and told him, A league can basically have anything they like in their constituion as long as majority agreed to that constitution.

Looking at the TBA Ltd League, Tournament and General Playing Rules V6.2 it states in RULE 333 page 22 HANDICAP - (Unless convered by a Leagues own rules) the handicap allowance shall be 80 percent and shall be figured on the difference between each individuals average and 200 scratch.

Thats it, nothing about what he is saying. Unless it is covered somewhere else in the TBA rules that I haven't found as yet.

Personally I don't care if their is a maximum handicap. I only care if rules are broken. So I just need to clear up this hickup before my team finalises its decision with Narre Warren.

Regards, Oz

 

[xpense]

Hey OZ,

This is the first that l have heard of it is illegal to place a handicap restriction in a league constitution. If the league agrees to the rule being a max of 80 pins then that is what counts. That is why leagues have those wonderful meetings that last hours and hours to nut out these little small details.

Me thinks that someone is a little of the mark with thier interpretation of the rules.

 

[BG]

As far as I know, anything in a league's constitution over-rules any similar rules in the TBA Rule Book.

My league in WA included a rule which said that the handicap will be 80% of 200, with a maximum of 100 as we had several low average bowlers in our league.

I think a league's constitution can include pretty much any rule, as long as the majority of the leagues members vote for the motion. Any changes made to the constitution after the first week of league must be approved by 100% of the league's bowlers.

Hope this helps! (But I might be wrong!)

BG

 

[MinusZero]

I think a maximum handicap could be a good thing, it would encourage people to get better, otherwise you will suffer.

My league uses the awful 100% of 200 system (set by the centre manager for all leagues grrr) and i dont think it encourages people to get better because you can easily pay for any mistakes as a high average bowler and lower average bowlers see that and wonder why they should bother getting better, if its so easy to lose...dont get me started

 

[Sumo]

Hey Ozmoz
One of the Leagues I bowl in has a 50 max Handicap with 80% of 200.
The other League is 90% of 200 unlimited. Both work fine and both have an Average of the whole league in the mid 170's.

Personally, I think the average basis should be just above the highest average at the start of the season. So if that is 215, make it 80% of 220.

Having a bowler on Scratch is a definite advantage.

For example, Bowler A has 180 average and 16 handicap(80% of 200 basis), bowls 185 in Game 1. His opponent has a 215 average, gets no Handicap, bowls 210 and wins. One Bowler beats average by 5 and loses, the other misses average by 5 and wins. The countering argument is that Bowler B has to work harder to get average than does Bowler A.

If the basis was 80% of 220 then Bowler A gets 32 handicap and his 185 game is now 217 with handicap, Bowler B gets 4 handicap and his 210 game now loses. The bowler who beats average wins, the bowler who misses average loses.

The reason this will never get up is that most leagues are run by the higher average bowlers OR the fear that the higher average bowlers will walk away from such a league and bowl somewhere else.

It would be interesting to run a second set of results (based on the higher average base) for a big league and see what the long term effect really was. i.e. would the same teams still win?

Sumo

 

[Ozmoz]

Hey Ozmoz

If the basis was 80% of 220 then Bowler A gets 32 handicap and his 185 game is now 217 with handicap, Bowler B gets 4 handicap and his 210 game now loses. The bowler who beats average wins, the bowler who misses average loses.

The reason this will never get up is that most leagues are run by the higher average bowlers OR the fear that the higher average bowlers will walk away from such a league and bowl somewhere else.

It would be interesting to run a second set of results (based on the higher average base) for a big league and see what the long term effect really was. i.e. would the same teams still win?

Sumo

Yep!!... would be very interesting to see what would happen. I like that idea

I know when you mention things like these to the League President etc they get very deffensive... Its like "How dare this person question the president, I've been running this league for blah blah blah".

I'm bowling tonight so will double check with what he was on about.

Regards, Oz

 

[xpense]

I bowled in a league that did this exact thing. Used the average of the highest league bowler from the season before. Got stupid in the end. We had a bowler (wont name names) that averaged 232 for a 27 week season. The league voted to change the hadicap sytem from 90% of 220 (the previous seasons) to 90% of 230.

Not only did that bowler leave, but so did the team, and 4 other teams as well. It became that if you averaged well, you got penalised for it.

Lets face a fact here, a bowler who averages 200 plus, is bound to bowl games around that mark even higher, but to score a lot higher is not that regular. For bolwers around the mid 170 to 180 mark, they on a regular basis will bowl a 200 plus. They will beat the 200 average bowler on a regular basis due to this fact. The bowler who averages in the mid 170 bracket will bowl just as many if not more games over average over a season than a 200 to 210 average bowler. (When you look at they bowl over thier average this will be more than the higehr bowler on average)

In the league l mentioned above, they are down to 14 team from 28 as the higher average bowlers have moved on, as they could not be competitive in the league due to the handicap system. No high average teams won the league seaason in season out. It was mostly the 175 to 180 average teams that won this league on a regular basis, as they were able to bowl more over average on a regular basis than the high average teams.

 

[Ozmoz]

Ok my current treasurer said that he has based the reason why you cannot have a clause in your constitution to have a maximum handicap is because in the United States a bowler won a court case by sueing the United States Bowling Congress of descrimination.

The court agreed that having a maximum handicap would discriminate against some bowlers and fined the USBC $US5,000 and ordered a maximum handicap illegal.

Now, as laws vary from country to country, what happened over there might not have any legal argument here. The only thing is many of our rules/regs are based of the USBC. A constitution can never over-ride a situtation that would discriminate against someone. So I guess until someone tests it out here a maximum handicap will appear in many Australian bowling league constitutions.

I just want to point our that I have no way of validating anything of what he said. So it can simply be heresay.

Regards, Oz

 

[Sumo]

I think your league official is misguided as the TBA follows WTBA rules. The USBC rules don't exactly align with WTBA and anyway a legal ruling in the USA has no effect in Oz.

It's only the Seppos who think the whole world revolves around them. :rofl:

Lance, re different handicap systems, I was interested in yr comments. I stated that such a system would be unlikely to get the support of the higher average bowlers and this was also your experience.

Amflite Moorabbin is reforming in 2 weeks time with the new season starting 14th September. I might keep the alternate ladder as an exercise for the first few weeks, to see if it would make any drastic difference.
We have a few bowlers averaging 215 or so. This should be an interesting exercise.
Sumo

 

[Resurrection]

which league at narre uses a maximum handicap oz.

 

[Vaughnn]

The express League - your league!!!

 

[Ozmoz]

which league at narre uses a maximum handicap oz.

Actually,the more I look into it the more I find more leagues doing that.

And you find many league constitutions tend to copy from others in the same center. Which helps you understand the feelings of players.

I wouldn't think about changing the way the Express League does things,as any league that can continue to run for years with a very good turn out must be doing something right!

One problem with Australia these days is soon as you bring up the racist or discrimiation card the courts bend over backwards for them.

My own thoughts... someone gets a maximum of 80 handicap, well, pull your finger out and get better! Bowling is meant to be fun
Regards, Oz