AMF Game Rates?

[STEROID]

Hi Everyone,

Today I went to an AMF Bowling centre with my 2.5 year old daughter (for the 3rd time), hoping to get her into the "swing" (pun intended) of tenpin bowling. I wasn't going to bowl, just help her have some fun. I went up to the counter and I didn't know the person at the desk, but I stated I was an AMF league bowler , but I didn't have my league card at the time. Granted, this was an AMF centre different to the one I usually bowl league in. Nevertheless, I quickly and sadly found out that non-league prices for anyone under the age of 14 years is $13.50 per game. I'll repeat that, yes, $13.50 per game... even for a 2.5 year old that needs help bringing the ball to the foul line, loses interest in the game before the end of 12 frames and wants to play with the console and type on the buttons instead. Am I the only person that thinks this is outrageous pricing for kids under the age of 5 years?

If it wasn't yet clear to me (which it was before anyway), it is blatantly obvious now that AMF is here just for the money. I understand that they have to make money, but profitting that much at the toddlers expense... that's a bit much. What actually happened to kids under 5 years having discounts and helping kids become interested in the sport by helping their parents afford the games. If nothing else, this should at least apply until they reach a certain age that their attention span is long enough that they want to watch the ball hit the pins (which hasn't really happened yet for my 2.5 year old daughter).

Your thoughts are welcome bowlers, and AMF staff/ price makers...

Chris

 

[jimcross]

Yes, your'e right, they have to make money. Operating a Bowling Centre is a VERY expensive exercise, and first you have to build it, which doesn't come cheaply either.

Having said that, they need a longer view, a bit past to-days takings, towards maybe thousands of games in the future.

Let's say that your'e little one does get to enjoy and get to understand a little of what she's doing, so much so that in the future she leans towards a learners league or some such, how much is that in comparison to other - probably higher profile - beginners level sports?

 

[Gary]

my 8 year old comes bowling every Monday night the last 2 months she wants to bowl while i bowling league the bowl ( AMF ) gave her the league practice ( after i asked ) rate so she gets a game every Monday if they were going to ask for $13.50 no way she would bowl. Oh and she still gets her tokens so the bowl is getting an extra $5.50 over say 40 weeks a year.

 

[steve jones]

......so you acknowledge Chris [well at least I think you do] that AMF are entitled to make a profit - so long as it's a profit made within the boundaries of what's acceptable to you. Perhaps you might care to extend that thought to it's natural conclusion and explain how they can actually make any money at all given most everyone's perception of "acceptable pricing" would likely be significantly different.

In my view - given I understand rather well the development and operating costs of running a bowling business in a primary location such as Melbourne -I would view the casual rate you paid to be reasonable in light of those costs in today's market...a market, incidentally, which is under significant pressure with cost increases [many generated by Government intervention] that are to say the least - alarming!

 

[bluey]

I run my own business removing trees and have been operating for 12 years now, a business must profit or it ceases to be one. Having said that, sometimes you must look at the big picture and long term/future work, after all 100% of $5.50 is more than 0% of $13.50.

 

[STEROID]

Hi jimcross,

I haven't gotten that far with my daughter yet. I haven't looked into other sport participation as she is only having a "dabble" in a sport here or there right now. So haven't looked into other sport prices yet, but if I find out, I'll inform you.

Steve jones,

I don't mind businesses making a profit, but making the same profit from a child that does not have the attention span or understanding of the sport as those that actively compete is not necessarily fair. After all, these kids will be the future of our sport, so charging under 5 year olds the same price is counterproductive to bowling's future. I don't think it is about acceptable price for me, but it's about an acceptable price for the general population to keep them coming back and participating in our sport. In case you missed it, the general theme of my post was about prices for kids under 5 years, not necessarily prices to benefit me.

When my daughter was bowling, I actually spoke to a couple that had their 5 year old son with them bowling. They told me their son enjoys bowling and would like to bowl more, but he could never get involved in a league simply because the cost they spend on a couple of games every time they come (which was about 6 times a year, if that). Thus, this is another example of how prices may restrict our development programs.

One thing I can acknowledge, is that, yes, I don't understand the operating costs and issues around keeping a bowling centre going more than you, but I do know that charging kids under the age of 5 almost the same prices as adults, will only deter and prevent kids from participating and therefore restrict our junior development programs and initiatives!

Steve jones, although you are highly invested in bowling, I find it difficult to believe that you really want to promote the sport of bowling and improve participation rates (I don't know you very well, so I'm not even sure whether this may be one of your motives), especially if you would openly want to make a 100% profit (or whatever the going rate is these days) on an under 5 year old child who does not understand the basic concept of the sport and attention is diverted quickly.

I hope to at least show my children the fun of bowling and let them choose what they want to do after that, I just hope that price won't be a forced reason to turn them away from bowling.

In conclusion... I agree with bluey's percentage comment wholeheartedly! I definitely will not pay $13.50 very often.

Chris

 

[Fitzy]

I thought the same thing about the local IMAX theatre. $20 to see a non-mainstream movie vs $13 (at the time) for a mainstream movie at a cinema.

I'm not a business man, though as a consumer, it's a no brainer.

I always stated that they should either; show mainstream at slightly higher cost (say $15), or show the IMAX movie at under mainstream costs (say $10). Then consumers will have a more difficult decision to make and IMAX may have attracted more consumers towards their product.

Suffice to say it is no-longer an "IMAX" theatre. Just a normal theatre with one "large" screen. Mainstream movies, at mainstream prices.

Hmmm, maybe some of the bus-whizzes out there might heed the lesson.
Hahahahaha, nah, no chance.

cheers,

my $0.05

 

[lordofthepins]

It does seem pretty rough Chris, being a parent myself of three youngsters I can fully appreciate this. The only thing I would suggest would be to always have your league card on u, that way u avoid the $13.50...Or tell the centre which centre u bowl at and day of the week league u bowl in, perhaps the centre may have a copy of your league bowler id??? Not sure about this, still, always have it in your wallet..

Businesses are business to be IN business, but when they have so many competitors around, and in nearly every suburb, from various sporting clubs and groups, social groups/scouts/cubs, cinemas, home technology like playstations, nintendo and internet, then what businesses may need to consider is that they're pricing justification is of NO interest to me as a consumer, I will find another activity that represents better value for money. In relation to bowling, I bowl in league and in practise where possible 3 times a week, now had I not have been a league bowler, where my kids would pay $5.50 per game, and turned up and got stung $13.50 per game, I would either walk right out the door, or pay the money and bowl once or twice a year....

Is anybody listening, AMF marketing/accounting/human resources department????????

It is not acceptable for bowling centre owners/managers to complain about the costs of running their business as a reason for high pricing, when there are SOOOO many other activites that kids can participate in...If bowling was a BOOM sport, or growth sport, and the demand was higher then the supply then u could expect this, you may not like it from the consumers point of view, but at least understand it... I feel like I can say this and hopefully not come across as an ars*hole, because I do put around $60 a week into my centre.. Thats a fair whack of money coming away from my family, mortgage, kids activites, bills etc....

If anyone here thinks that these prices are fair to the CONSUMER, then they are kidding themselves!! Is it good business to out price yourself out of earnings...

Chris for $13.50 your daughter could have participated in the following activities:

*first group tennis lesson
*karate lesson
*movie ticket
*kids activity centre
*indoor heated swimming pool
*badminton
*indoor soccer/indoor netball
*gelatis at the park
This is just a very,very small list of alternatives to bowling.How can AMF not seem to even care about REPEAT BUSINESS... That repeat business, may one day become regular business.

Love an answer AMF please??

From a happy, but sometimes bemused league bowler whos adult friends rarely take their kids bowling as a fun family activity because of the RIDICULOUS COSTS. They do other more AFFORDABLE activities...Guess what, their kids all play soocer, taikwondo and basketball....

Centres look at their costs, but people look at whats in their wallets.You want them to be better or more loyal customers, then price it right in the first place Stop stinging your walk in clients, they won't come back... No excuses AMF!!!

As for Chris' 2 yr daughter or any child of that age being slugged $13.50, not cool at all..

Take care all.

 

[AdrianS]

Geez how about an 'Alley Gator' leauge for the little ones, from little things big things grow after all

ps
If any AMF manager/employee is reading this and thinks 'hmmm whats Alley Gator??' Ah well you get that!!!

 

[Andrew S.]

Love an answer AMF please??

Wouldn't we all love the occasional answer, but it wont happen.

At the first sign of a dis-satisfied customer on TB they bury their heads in the sand and wait for them to go away, and our National Body is no better.

This forum could be used very constructively and for the betterment of the Sport if the major players weren't so frightened of their own shadow.

Compare this with Whirlpool which is Australias largest IT forum. All the major ISPs and equipment manufacturers maintain a high profile even the much maligned Big Pond and Telstra have an active presence.
Complaints, whether they be regarding either equipment or service are taken seriously. The Bowling industry hasnt yet woken up to the importance of the Net.

 

[steve jones]

Chris, if the best you can do is offer up emotional responses, devoid of logic and utterly without any appreciation [self admitted] of how this business operates and what costs are involved - whilst coming up with profit percentages of three digits [where did you pull these from by the way] - and at the same time tack on a personal insult or two [that's OK Chris I've been insulted by far better people than you, you say you "don't know me very well" - YOU don't know me at all son] - then all I can say is... congratulations, you've exceeded my every expectation.

 

[WAC4504]

I find it hard to imagine what it must be like to pay those kind of prices. Granted I'm in the states, and don't even know what all the rest of the country is paying, but here we pay 3.50 - 4.00 a game any time of the day top rate. And with that said most places will always have special rates that are much moor affordable. Where I bowl we have 2 hour for 10.00 most any time, and 1.00 a game from monday - thursday from 10AM till 3PM. Those centers that have less than desirable conditions to include pricing just don't last long, as there are 2 for sale right now. I would suggest AMF be ware 'cause there are others who are in the business of bowling who would clean there clocks if they open in Australia. I have to take my hat off to you folks for your dedication to the sport, 'cause I would have quit bowling a long time ago.

 

[lordofthepins]

Hey Steve, maybe I missed it, but Chris wasn' being an ars*hole to you, so why are you being one to him???

Anyway as a centre owner/manager, why don't u put in the time in answerering a part post of mine. Here it is:

"From a happy, but sometimes bemused league bowler whos adult friends rarely take their kids bowling as a fun family activity because of the RIDICULOUS COSTS. They do other more AFFORDABLE activities...Guess what, their kids all play soocer, taikwondo and basketball....

Centres look at their costs, but people look at whats in their wallets.You want them to be better or more loyal customers, then price it right in the first place Stop stinging your walk in clients, they won't come back... No excuses AMF!!!"..............................................

Alright Steve,
Tell me how can u explain why people feel this way, why they dont come back, and how do YOU think this may effect junior leagues and their development (which Chris touched on)... How about some answeres..

Not meaning to being rude, but as a CONSUMER( forgetting that I am myself an avid bowler), I don't give two shi*s about your overheads, your margins, your anything, BUT YOUR PRICES!!! If you can't give me value for money, remember I will compare other activities, then adios amigos, I'm out of here.

Please Steve love an answer on this..

 

[Jase]

How old do you all have to be to stop this consistent name calling...

Its becoming more and more obvious why bowling the sport is fading, and to be honest its not always the people at the top hurting our game...

Can we just reduce the amount of slandering to a dull roar and discuss the topic at hand...

 

[Phluff]

I must spend too much time visiting/working in independent centres these days as everywhere I've been has different rates for under 6, 6-16yrs, Adults, Seniors and Pensioners. Forgetting the "Future" of the sport and focusing directly on profits as that seems to be the main discussion;

That 5yr old kid isn't alone, parents will bowl with them and even if they don't this time, they will another time.
The family as a group will spend in the cafe and arcade areas bringing additional revenue.
That 5yr old is more likely to want to have a birthday there once they have bowled a few times which brings in more kids who want a party there etc.
Those little kids become the bread and butter league bowlers who will keep your centre running long after social bowlers walk away.

Families in general don't have the disposable income they used to have, however they still want to take the kids out somewhere. I've seen time and time again parents focusing on the "cost per child" rather than their own rate. If they see an under 6 game as being cheap, they don't usually notice they are paying double for themselves and will happily play a game. However as Chris mentioned at the start, he baulked at the idea of paying $13.50 for a 3yr old even though the total price may have been the same (ie. $8 for under 6 + $19 for Adult would be more appealing than $13.50 for everyone.)

 

[jimcross]

This is a worthwhile, important and serious subject, and there is plenty of room for differing opinions. Emotive expressions are sometimes perfectly valid depending on the subject matter. This subject is not one of them, in my view.

I've got some varied and I think relevant experience here. That doesn't include having children, so in that way, I bow to others.

I have been a bowler - obviously. I have been an employee in Bowling Centres - I have owned and operated a Bowling Centre. I have owned and operated other small businesses, including a sporting facility, being a privately owned, freehold Golf Course, and of considerable relevance, I was for some years the Operations Manager of the Service Station Association. Why is that relevant? Look around your ares. Remember how many Service Stations there were 10 years ago - Then 20 years ago - and so on. Now look how many there are now. All this while the number of vehicles has continued to rise. Why? I spent a great deal of my time, in that industry trying to talk Servise Station private owners out of discounting themselves out of business. I failed - they went out of business, many losing their homes in the process, so we're now left with fewer outlets, majority owned by the Oil Companies / Woolies / Coles, etc., operating on higher margins.

So, you have to charge enough, but what is enough? As some one (was it Bluey ) said, 100% of $5:50, is better than 0% of $13:50. It is a matter of BALANCE. It's no good looking only at short term gain. If you do, long time pain is inevitable.

Most sports would give their collective right arms to have the advantage of their sport also being an entertainment available for families, so that they could use that to source participants to their sport - maybe for a lifetime. How about going to your local Golf Club, Tennis Court Complex, Netball Courts, Soccer Club, and have Dad, Mum, your 4 and 7 year olds, plus Grandpa, all play Golf or Tennis, or whatever, together?? I don't think so!

Since the '60s and '70s, when have the major operators concentrated on using bowling for fun, to gain sporting bowlers for life?

It really is time to think outside the square.

AMF may not respond to these type of forums, but let's hope they sometimes read them.

 

[bluey]

To Mr Steve Jones, l don't think any of us are after a profit /loss statement or annual turnover figures. Maybe a response with less tit for tat personal attacks and more professional comments from one we acknowledge as being a long standing/serving respected person of the bowling industry. If a bowling centre was full all day and evening with people paying nothing above league practice rate, are they likely to go out of business?
Regards. Paul Robinson.

 

[ADP1805]

Lets all remember AMF are part of the Macquarie Bank so the $$$$ will always be king to this group of companies.
I have 5 children and find it difficult to justify the large cost to take them bowling on a regular basis.
That said when we do venture out to bowl it is always to an independent center and if the center staff are approached in the correct manner and you can show you are a league bowler 9 times out of 10 the center will drop the price to practice rates which makes the whole outing much more enjoyable for all.
On a recent visit to the USA i also found their practice and league rates to be very competitive and right on the money so to speak.
Pity one of the US companies would not open out here to show AMF how its done.

 

[tonx]

WOW, going back to the original topic and actually doing the maths on what "hourly rate" $13.50 a game works out to be...

Each game on average will take approx 10 minutes. So this works out to be $81 an hour. Lets combine this with our $6.50 tub of chips at 30cents a chip, and our $4 small post mix at $1 every 75mls and I think as a business they are making more than enough profit.

Now at a conservative 2% NON-Compound (simply because I can't be bothered doing the compound interest) Annual Growth Rate on our original $81 an hour in 10 years time will be $97.20 an hour.

Close to $100 an hour just to throw an object at 10 other objects 60ft away? Fail.

I will be very very surprised if my daughter ever picks up a bowling ball. Considering a sport with a future (think smaller white ball, longer distances) costs between $5 and $15 an hour to do.

 

[lordofthepins]

I took my 3 kids bowling today. We had a game each, being a league bowler I got 4 games for $18. I then paid $6.95 for each of us for lunch, then another $10 on the game machines/tokens... We arrived say 11.00am, left 1.20pm happy with bouncy balls, toy dinosaurs and a tennis racquet paddle.. Total cost $55.80... Not cheap, but not over the top either. My kids had a good time, therfore I had a good time. My kids also have a positive impression whenever I mention bowling.. They already have had several bowling birthday parties there as well. I'm wrapped..In time to come, I maybe able to get them into a junior league... Its all good!! I am hoping they will continue with bowling, and their kids likewise, and their kids kids. Its a dream I know!!

Bowling as a product is fantasic, fun,safe and family friendly.. It ticks ALL the boxes, its just the cost?? nothing is free, nothing is dirt cheap either, but as Jim said there must be some middle ground...

Every school holidays, the AMF discount coupons come out in local newspapers or on shopping receipts... Now, it seems to me, like they (AMF) are actively engaged in picking up lots of revenue during holidays, why wouldn't they of course.So for the other 40 weeks throughout the year, have their accounting/market research division figured out its ok to slug non league bowlers, assuming they may be back once or twice throughout the year.. Assuming that AMF have done the sums correctly, is this all they need to do to make a profit?!?!? So, where and how do they see junior bowlers getting into the sport and junior leagues... Ok, AMF you can count on me (fingers crossed) with my 3 kids, as I'm sure many other league bowlers out there.. Just in case u hadn't as yet noticed league numbers don't appear to be picking up (I might be wrong, in fact I hope that I AM WRONG!), so what is the big picture here.. Cause I'm afraid I can't see it. Please forgive my ignorance, enlighten me.

In relation to my bowling exp today, had I of not been a league bowler, I'm sure my $55.80 family fun outing, would have been seriously higher...

Jim you said:
"Most sports would give their collective right arms to have the advantage of their sport also being an entertainment available for families, so that they could use that to source participants to their sport - maybe for a lifetime. How about going to your local Golf Club, Tennis Court Complex, Netball Courts, Soccer Club, and have Dad, Mum, your 4 and 7 year olds, plus Grandpa, all play Golf or Tennis, or whatever, together?? I don't think so!"..

True, but If I couldn't afford to bowl together as a family/with or without Grandpa, then I would only bowl very few times throughout the year... Thats perhaps all I could afford...
Tennis membership is (depending on club) approx $200 fro family = $4 a week I can play all the time with all my family...
Golf membership (depends on public/private), lets assume public, Mt Martha golf club for annual membership $750 = $15 a week, kids can play for free at certain times of week I think, also some clubs have $90 annual play anytime for juniors Chelsea/one beside freeway, sorry not sure on name of club)
Soccer Club approx $120 = $2.25 a week, to play indoor no reg fees $6-8 a week

Footy, Netball, Cricket, Badminton, the list goes on, ALL cheaper than open bowling.. I understand that league bowling for juniors appears fair and reasonable, and I am not complaining about the "league" pricing at all. As I think the price and value for money stacks up nicely.

Another thing to think about is that with each of the sports mentioned that they ALL can be played at home, in the street, at school....They have a big headstart over bowling. Think about this point for a bit, and ALL have some degree of media attention..

I can go on, and on... bowling needs to really think about their pricing.Money is tighter for families than ever before, and there are so many other attrative options for my kids, but what do u do, I love bowling sadly...Still waiting Steve???

I'm just waiting till the AMF customer service posts begins lol! Thats for another time..